It isn't Dick ... it's open to the world.

Apparently my "nevermind" is taking a while to propagate :)

They always do.

The ARRL is doing some pretty important work on this one. What would the League
have to do to get you as a member?

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

So who do hams call for assistance, the ARRL? I haven't seen anything
from them suggesting that.

I have just completed the draft of the letter that ARRL will send to hams in
the trial cities, asking for reports and offering to help vet them before
they
are sent. It should go out this week.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab



If there are RFI complaints, kindly correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to
recall that the FCC has the purview on such matters, not a non-profit
organization.

Ed, is there some reason why radio amateurs cannot document their complaints,
if they exist, to the FCC directly? Why is it preferable to go through a non
profit organization? Is there some additional technical capacity which the
radio amateur requires in order to make an RFI complaint? If so, could you
kindly let us know what that is and how it is accessed?

Many thanks.

73,
Chip N1IR

Hams are not the only users of the affected spectrum. They may be the
most vocal, but perhaps the easiest to discredit or deflect.

What about the other users of the HF-thru-VHF spectrum? Police, Fire,
EMS, Federal Government, Business, Utilities (the power companies
themselves), Military, Aviation, etc., etc.?

Do they not have consultants who are in touch with industry affairs?

Does APCO (and other industry communications associations) not have
knowledge about BPL and a position on it?

What is the ARRL doing to join forces with other affected spectrum
users, perhaps forming a task force to promote common interests?
Lobbying senators and congressmen, the Commission, NTIA, etc.?

If the utilities' strategy is to divide and conquer, it appears they
are being very effective.

73
Dan (K0DAN)



On 14 Oct 2003 14:03:08 GMT, Dick Carroll
wrote:

W1RFI wrote:

You raise an interesting question, Carl. How exactly should the
average ham go about proving that the RFI is indeed BPL, when the BPL
people say
"That's not us!'??


In the case in Emmaus, the PPL rep told a reporter that Carl had misidentified
a "neon sign" (in a residential neighborhood) as BPL. First, Carl is
professionally adept with spread spectrum, so he knows what an SS signal sounds
like. The signal was heard only in the trial area and when I was in Emmaus, I
worked with a local in the trial area who downloaded files for me. When the
download started, the noise started; when it stopped, the noise stopped.

What really proves it to be not a neon sign, however, is that the time-domain
(oscilloscope) signature of the received signal does not have a pronounced
120-Hz signature. Had the PPL representative actually looked at the signal, he
would have known that his "explanation" was pretty transparent.

I have extended by email a very cordial inviation for the PPL folks to attend a
local club talk I gave; they did not respond. I then emailed a cordial
invitation to work with them on interference issues; they did not respond. This
boggles the mind, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars of my
company's money and a national organization came to me and told me that there
was a serious problem with the technology, and offered to drive over 200 miles
just to show it to me, I think I would spend the hour or two and take a look.



It's beyond obvious that the BPL people are adamantly intent on
stonewealling and bypassing ham radio and anything else that tries to
get in the way.
They're aware that many of the impacted spectrum users are so widely
scattered that much of the interference caused by BPL even when it
becomes widely implemented they won't be noticed due to their limited
exposure caused by lack of adequately close proximity.

Hams, which *are* pretty well scattered throughout the population,
should be ignored and their complaints deflected by such incorrect
assertions as the above "neon sign" explanation. Make it so that there
is so much question as to hams' competance to make such a call they can
be portrayed to be wrong, whatever the facts. It's obvious obfuscation
and an end-run around us, and whatever other protesters weigh in that
can be similarily deflected. They hope that the "serious" users of that
part of the spectrum will prove to be so few and widely scattered that
their protests will be few and managable.

And once BPL installations are widespread, they know it would demand
a clearly demonstrated, very serious interference problem to csuse its
abandonment, and they don't think that will happen. They maybe right.
If so many users sign on that the sheer numbers of BPL users overwhelm
all the protests of spectrum pollution and damage to communications
sheer numbers and politics will prevail in their favor, they believe.
All they really need to do is get it approved and "out there" in large
amounts in most populated areas, then the situation will take care of
itself, they think.

If allowed to proceed, BPL will forever change usability of the HF and
Low VHF part of the spectrum.

Precisely ..

Dick Carroll wrote:



Proximity to the power grid would be the main clincher, IMO, but what
about skywave propagation? That stuff could go around the world at QRP
evels!

And it will. You can even work VK6 from W5 on 40CW with one watt. If
it radiates, it also radiates skywave. Which mnakes this issue one for
WARC as well, bigtime.

--


-- Sleep well; OS2's still awake! ;)

Mike Luther

"Dick Carroll" wrote in message
...
Roger Halstead wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:27:27 -0400, a 32 bit process
wrote:


On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:56:50 GMT, "James Wilson"
wrote:


What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it
can
be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party?

It almost sounds like a geiger counter, but a lot louder and the
clicking is quicker in pace.


After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I
can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose
connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other.
I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make
recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed.



Proximity to the power grid would be the main clincher, IMO, but what
about skywave propagation? That stuff could go around the world at QRP
evels!





BTW, most of the links failed and instead I ended up hijacked to QSL
dot net. (they call it redirecting, but if I didn't select to go
there, I don't want to go there...I'll settle for the 404 screen
instead of giving some one advertizing points.)

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)




Yep.....I've worked QRPp stations using miliwatts of output.

Can you imagine this garbage being generated and then propagated worldwide.
My Gawd !!!!

Dan/W4NTI

Some of the trial areas have about 10 homes in them. The industry still
says,
with a straight face, we had no reports of interference, so this "proves"
we
won't interfere.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

If I was a suspicious fellow, I might thing they were putting callbook data
through it's paces, and selecting areas based on low ham count.

"W1RFI" wrote in message
...
It isn't Dick ... it's open to the world.

Apparently my "nevermind" is taking a while to propagate :)

They always do.

The ARRL is doing some pretty important work on this one. What would the
League
have to do to get you as a member?

Well.. I've been rather turned off by the "luddite"s in my local area.
Until recently, our league section person was the head of the VEC group
locally, an she refused to allow farnsworth testing for CW. There was no
web presence, no response to emails. You'd have to be there.. The general
thread was "if you're not an HF contester or rag chewer, hang up now". We
have a new section person, but it dosen't seem anything's changing.

The ARRL bandplan for 902, is pretty much unusable, since the vast majority
of commercial gear that can be used in this band, won't work with the 12 MHz
split.

I do see that the ARRL is going to be very important on this issue, and I'm
available to make observations within any reasonable driving distance of my
QTH. (Muncie Indiana)

Wether I'm a member or not shouldn't affect the validity of my data.

I've got an FT-847 that I can take mobile, and also Tek 7L12 spectrum
analyzer for direct measurements. This is an older swept analog, rather
than a new DSP analyzer. The DSP based systems are not so good at finding
pulsed noise. Sometime I'll relate the story of how an IC-R8500
dramatically out performed the latest and greatest HP EMI analysis suite in
finding an EMI problem.

I am interested to know how you're calibrating your mobile to get uV/Meter
measurements.

In the eyes of the BPL, there's no problem with the technology that
needs to be addressed. It will make barrels of money for them. So what's
the problem?

I've learned that when the actions of a person or company don't make
sense, it's simply because I've misunderstood their motives or
situation. Their response is perfectly logical if you begin with the
premise that the necessary money has been spent on the right politicians
and political campaigns to assure approval regardless of the actions of
irritating gnats like hams and the ARRL. If that's the case, then it's
simply a waste of time and money for them to pay any attention to the
likes of the ARRL.

I'll bet you'll find that their other actions are consistent with this
model. I suspect that the ARRL's effort would better be spent locating
and trying to persuade the purchased politicians that their political
futures might be affected by approval, rather than trying to convince
the BPL that there's something wrong with their attempt to make lots of
money.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

W1RFI wrote:
. . .
I have extended by email a very cordial inviation for the PPL folks to attend a
local club talk I gave; they did not respond. I then emailed a cordial
invitation to work with them on interference issues; they did not respond. This
boggles the mind, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars of my
company's money and a national organization came to me and told me that there
was a serious problem with the technology, and offered to drive over 200 miles
just to show it to me, I think I would spend the hour or two and take a look.

I'll bet you'll find that their other actions are consistent with this
model. I suspect that the ARRL's effort would better be spent locating
and trying to persuade the purchased politicians that their political
futures might be affected by approval, rather than trying to convince
the BPL that there's something wrong with their attempt to make lots of
money.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

At this point, they are probably still actively persuing investors.
If the investors get the idea that there's a potential dead end here, they
will go elsewhere.
The ones that are already in though, will be mad at us, most likely.
:(

Write or call your local AM broadcast stations and tell them that
thier signal is being wiped out and you can't recieve them.

Clint
KB5ZHT