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BPL a reality in my area now!
Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay,
Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan |
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message om... "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Exactly, must sent in complaints. Or the 'utilities' will say...."we got very few complaints" Dan/W4NTI |
Exactly. Also, don't just complain to the utilities as they will still deny
getting complaints. I wonder if they are hiring any of the lawyers from the tobacco companies LOL 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message hlink.net... "Dee D. Flint" wrote in message om... "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Exactly, must sent in complaints. Or the 'utilities' will say...."we got very few complaints" Dan/W4NTI --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 10/9/03 |
Jim Hampton wrote:
Exactly. Also, don't just complain to the utilities as they will still deny getting complaints. I wonder if they are hiring any of the lawyers from the tobacco companies LOL A CC list for complaints: *Utility company *FCC (radio, telecom, and cable depts) *ARRL *your congresscritter *your senator *your state's PUC (public utilitues commission) *The senators or congressmen who fund the FCC *Various broadcasters, particularly those on TV channels 2, 3, 4 (as these are below 80MHz, the high end of BPL). Also any shortwave broadcasters in the USA except VOA (they are not allowed to care about reception inside the USA). *NTIA (who we share the 5MHz band with). |
"Robert Casey" wrote in message ... *your state's PUC (public utilitues commission) It's PUD around here. Also any shortwave broadcasters in the USA except VOA (they are not allowed to care about reception inside the USA). Neither are any of them. |
"James Wilson" wrote in message . .. What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? The ARRL website has a recording. It would make things like the PA QSO party (and other communications) nearly impossible. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can
be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message om... "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Ryan, et al, PLEASE coordinate with Ed Hare, ... and don't "write/contact your local commercial radio stations" UNLESS they ACTUALLY ARE being interfered with AND you are ABSOLUTELY SURE it's BPL. It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that any reports/complaints of "BPL interference" are REALLY BPL ... the amateur community is being accused by BPL proponents of "exaggerating the problem (so the ARRL can raise money ... which is absurd ... if there weren't a threat they wouldn't HAVE to raise money to defend against it ...). We CANNOT AFFORD to miss-identify other sources of interference as "BPL" or we just lend credence to the BPL folks' claim that we're "crying wolf." I cannot overemphasize the importance of these points. 73, Carl - wk3c |
Please see my previous message about the necessity of making SURE
that any complaints of "BPL interference" REALLY ARE BPL. 73, Carl - wk3c "Robert Casey" wrote in message ... Jim Hampton wrote: Exactly. Also, don't just complain to the utilities as they will still deny getting complaints. I wonder if they are hiring any of the lawyers from the tobacco companies LOL A CC list for complaints: *Utility company *FCC (radio, telecom, and cable depts) *ARRL *your congresscritter *your senator *your state's PUC (public utilitues commission) *The senators or congressmen who fund the FCC *Various broadcasters, particularly those on TV channels 2, 3, 4 (as these are below 80MHz, the high end of BPL). Also any shortwave broadcasters in the USA except VOA (they are not allowed to care about reception inside the USA). *NTIA (who we share the 5MHz band with). |
"James Wilson" wrote in message . .. What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? The video on the ARRL website shows a couple of BPL variants ... one that uses SS and another (test area 4) that uses OFDM. They sound different. Again, I cannot over-emphasize the importance of making SURE that complaints of "BPL interference" are REALLY from BPL and not some other source. The LAST thing we need now is a bunch of people "crying wolf." (Real complaints are one thing, crying wolf will only HURT us.) 73, Carl - wk3c |
www.arrl.org follow the links.
And yes its much worse than a contest. You wont even hear the contesters. Dan/W4NTI "James Wilson" wrote in message . .. What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! |
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:20:31 -0400, "Ryan, KC8PMX"
wrote: Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan What the "ham density" like in the Tri-Cities these days? Moved away 27 years ago (Bay City/Essexville) and not having been a ham then I was out of touch with such things. I do know that it wasn't too high a population density overall - perhaps they are targeting low ham population areas in the testing so they can show a low interference complaint volume? I think Carl's on track in his post; the more credible the reports of interference the more likely they will be taken seriously. Howard |
"Dick Carroll" wrote in message ... Carl R. Stevenson wrote: "James Wilson" wrote in message . .. What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? The video on the ARRL website shows a couple of BPL variants ... one that uses SS and another (test area 4) that uses OFDM. They sound different. Again, I cannot over-emphasize the importance of making SURE that complaints of "BPL interference" are REALLY from BPL and not some other source. The LAST thing we need now is a bunch of people "crying wolf." (Real complaints are one thing, crying wolf will only HURT us.) 73, Carl - wk3c You raise an interesting question, Carl. How exactly should the average ham go about proving that the RFI is indeed BPL, when the BPL people say "That's not us!'?? BPL has a unique "signature" (in the spectral/time domains) that can be used to ID it. Since there are different systems (SS from main.net and OFDM from Amperion, for example) they have different signatures, which are distinct from other sources of interference and more traditional power line noise (of course the utilities are responsible for fixing the latter, too ... though their record is poor). Carl - wk3c |
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:38:09 GMT, "Carl R. Stevenson"
wrote: Please see my previous message about the necessity of making SURE that any complaints of "BPL interference" REALLY ARE BPL. Unless I know it's BPL, it's just going to get reported as "noise". Another way to look at it though ... If it doesn't sound like a normal power line, it's gonna be BPL as there shouldn't be anything else on there. My understand is that this is only going to be in the Midland, Bay City, and Saginaw areas with the possibility of Flint. I still haven't seen anything specific as to locations and time tables. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) 73, Carl - wk3c "Robert Casey" wrote in message ... Jim Hampton wrote: Exactly. Also, don't just complain to the utilities as they will still deny getting complaints. I wonder if they are hiring any of the lawyers from the tobacco companies LOL A CC list for complaints: *Utility company *FCC (radio, telecom, and cable depts) *ARRL *your congresscritter *your senator *your state's PUC (public utilitues commission) *The senators or congressmen who fund the FCC *Various broadcasters, particularly those on TV channels 2, 3, 4 (as these are below 80MHz, the high end of BPL). Also any shortwave broadcasters in the USA except VOA (they are not allowed to care about reception inside the USA). *NTIA (who we share the 5MHz band with). |
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:27:27 -0400, a 32 bit process
wrote: On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:56:50 GMT, "James Wilson" wrote: What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? It almost sounds like a geiger counter, but a lot louder and the clicking is quicker in pace. That is a really good description of precipitation/snow static, but the speed *usually* varies. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) |
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:18:29 GMT, Howard
wrote: On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:20:31 -0400, "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote: Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan What the "ham density" like in the Tri-Cities these days? Moved away 27 years ago (Bay City/Essexville) and not having been a ham then I was out of touch with such things. I do know that it wasn't too high a population density overall - perhaps they are targeting low ham population areas in the testing so they can show a low interference complaint volume? I think Carl's on track in his post; the more credible the reports of interference the more likely they will be taken seriously. If you count everyone it's probably well over several hundred in the tri-county area.. I'd guess for active hams on HF and low VHF it's well over 100. It's probably more than that as "I recall" Midland club meetings run 30 to 40 although Ryan has a better memory than I and besides...he goes to the meetings. I hit about two a year. As I recall, Saginaw has a larger ham population. Bay City? They have an active group, but I have no idea as to numbers. There are a number of High power DXers and county hunters and some relatively elaborate antenna systems. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Howard |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message om... "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE The Bay, Saginaw and Midland clubs are going to work together on that...... Strength in numbers, at least locally. -- Ryan, KC8PMX FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!) --. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-. ... --. .... - . .-. ... |
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:27:27 -0400, a 32 bit process
wrote: On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:56:50 GMT, "James Wilson" wrote: What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? It almost sounds like a geiger counter, but a lot louder and the clicking is quicker in pace. After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. BTW, most of the links failed and instead I ended up hijacked to QSL dot net. (they call it redirecting, but if I didn't select to go there, I don't want to go there...I'll settle for the 404 screen instead of giving some one advertizing points.) Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) |
"James Wilson" wrote in message ...
What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? The ARRL website is loaded with video and/or audio files which will clearly demonstrate what the various forms of BPL signals sound like and the havoc they generate throughout the HF spectrum. http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/#Video Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? If BBL is broadly implemented you won't have to worry about the PAQP. There won't be a PAQP. BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! w3rv |
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dee D. Flint" wrote in message om... "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ... Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan Go to the sites. Check out the interference. If it's as bad as they say, write the local commercial radio stations to say they are being interfered with, write your congressman, and write the FCC. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Ryan, et al, PLEASE coordinate with Ed Hare, ... and don't "write/contact your local commercial radio stations" UNLESS they ACTUALLY ARE being interfered with AND you are ABSOLUTELY SURE it's BPL. Yes and no Carl.... if it makes it impossible to RECIEVE our local broadcast stations, I would think that the local broadcasters would be VERY interested to know that nobody is getting thier signal, except cable subscribers. -- Ryan, KC8PMX FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!) --. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-. ... --. .... - . .-. ... |
In article ,
says... What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? Is it worse that the Pennsylvania QSO party? The ARRL web site (www.arrl.org) has a video that can be downloaded that shows how severe this interference can be. They took a vehicle equipped with HF equipment and drove around areas where BPL is in use as a test program. The noise levels are horrendous. -- -- //Steve// Steve Silverwood, KB6OJS Fountain Valley, CA Email: Web: http://home.earthlink.net/~kb6ojs_steve |
After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? |
"Brian Kelly" wrote in message om... "James Wilson" wrote in message ... What does BPL sound like? Can someone post a wav file somewhere so it can be identified? The ARRL website is loaded with video and/or audio files which will clearly demonstrate what the various forms of BPL signals sound like and the havoc they generate throughout the HF spectrum. http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/#Video That helps a lot. I see what was meant by "geiger counter" sound now, as well as the other sort of noise. I do have a spectrum analyzer here, so that will help, when the day comes. At the moment, the only broadband available here is DSL or cable modem, which have been well-behaved neighbors. I'm using a cable modem now, and I don't notice anything from it, even when I tune into the bands that it uses. We have regular overflights scanning for leakage, so it appears that Comcast is making the effort. |
Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? Nevermind, a later post answered this. |
"Dick Carroll" wrote in message ... I seriously doubt the economics of BPL will ever bring it where I live, even if it is approved, but others need to know. That may indeed be true. However it will certainly make it tougher for you to communicate with someone in an area that is trashed by BPL. Dan/W4NTI |
"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message ... After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? I wasn't aware you had to be a member to go klik on the link to the BPL file. Go check and see. Dan/W4NTI |
"Dick Carroll" wrote in message ... Carl R. Stevenson wrote: "Dick Carroll" wrote in message ... [snip] You raise an interesting question, Carl. How exactly should the average ham go about proving that the RFI is indeed BPL, when the BPL people say "That's not us!'?? BPL has a unique "signature" (in the spectral/time domains) that can be used to ID it. Since there are different systems (SS from main.net and OFDM from Amperion, for example) they have different signatures, which are distinct from other sources of interference and more traditional power line noise (of course the utilities are responsible for fixing the latter, too ... though their record is poor). So to repeat, how does the average ham, whom you have exhorted to "make sure it's BPL that you're complaining about", go about detecting and sorting which is what, given that spectral analysis gear, and the training to use it if it was available, is virtually nonexistnt in the average hamshack? Is there a aural signature or more than one for the different BPL modes? Is the Emmaus test site video/audio clip reresentative enough to make the call, or is something more needed? The Emmaus test site video (test area #3) should be pretty representative of the "main.net" system ... test area #4 is the Amperion OFDM system. There could be others that might have different "signatures" ... I expect that if it was indeed BPL RFI it would follow the power grid pretty closely with signal strength highest when close, and tapering off with distance away from the lines. But from the one report posted here of a ham who said he heard it from a distance of 60 miles, seems like propagation will play into the picture-to be expected at HF as all experienced HF ham operators know. Or maybe *he* mis-identified it! I suspect that may be the case ... though it's not impossible that under ideal conditions of terrain, propagation, with good antenna, etc. that it *might* be detectable at some distance ... whether current levels of deployment would cause truly "harmful interference" at such a distance requires further study. So who do hams call for assistance, the ARRL? I haven't seen anything from them suggesting that. My recommendation would be to e-mail a .wav file or other common audio file format to Ed Hare, , and give him the particulars of time, location, if you *know* that your utility is doing a BPL trial, etc. (I'd appreciate a cc: of the audio file and particulars to my main e-mail address as well, just for my own information and analysis.) The MAIN thing is to NOT have a bunch of false "BPL interference complaints." The BPL industry is trying to paint the ARS as "exaggerating the potential for interference" and doing a lot of hand-waving ... inaccurate claims of "BPL interference" at this point will do more harm than good. Carl -wk3c |
"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message ... After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? Dave, The ARRL video is not in the "members only" part of the site ... it's easy to find from the articles on BPL in the public area. Carl - wk3c |
"Dick Carroll" wrote in message ... Dave VanHorn wrote: After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? Surely that file isn't on the members-only side of the site, is it? Certainly it shouldn't be, and if so I intend to protest. It isn't Dick ... it's open to the world. Carl - wk3c |
Surely that file isn't on the members-only side of the site, is it? Certainly it shouldn't be, and if so I intend to protest. It isn't Dick ... it's open to the world. Carl - wk3c Apparently my "nevermind" is taking a while to propagate :) |
Dick Carroll wrote in message ...
You raise an interesting question, Carl. How exactly should the average ham go about proving that the RFI is indeed BPL, when the BPL people say "That's not us!'?? BPL has a unique "signature" (in the spectral/time domains) that can be used to ID it. Since there are different systems (SS from main.net and OFDM from Amperion, for example) they have different signatures, which are distinct from other sources of interference and more traditional power line noise (of course the utilities are responsible for fixing the latter, too ... though their record is poor). So to repeat, how does the average ham, whom you have exhorted to "make sure it's BPL that you're complaining about", go about detecting and sorting which is what, given that spectral analysis gear, and the training to use it if it was available, is virtually nonexistnt in the average hamshack? Is there a aural signature or more than one for the different BPL modes? Is the Emmaus test site video/audio clip reresentative enough to make the call, or is something more needed? There's no mistaking the BPL signals in the Emmaus test area which are SS although there's some discussion on that point. I didn't know what to look for on my first pass through Emmaus and found all sorts of crud particularly in the extensive commercial area. But I found a very odd-sounding strong clicking noise in the area around the Emmaus High School and reported it to Carl and Ed Hare who then told me the stuff sounds like geiger-counter clicks. So I'd nailed it out of the chute with just my little TS-50 HF mobile xcvr and a 2M magmaount whip. I've probably heard every form of QRN/QRM out there by now and there is *no* mistaking the BPL in use in Emmaus. The stuff grabs yer AGC and it's all over. The ARRL audio tracks and files don't do it justice, the spikes it kicks out are too sharp and short to be captured properly with the consumer-level digital recording/playback equipment used to generate the recordings. OFDM is another form of the beast which I haven't personally tuned on-site yet but the ARRL recordings ought to give you the drift. I expect that if it was indeed BPL RFI it would follow the power grid pretty closely with signal strength highest when close, and tapering off with distance away from the lines. But from the one report posted here of a ham who said he heard it from a distance of 60 miles, seems like propagation will play into the picture-to be expected at HF as all experienced HF ham operators know. Or maybe *he* mis-identified it! So who do hams call for assistance, the ARRL? I haven't seen anything from them suggesting that. Unfortunately the only help available is via the FCC and the ARRL is beating the FCC into the ground over this one. I seriously doubt the economics of BPL will ever bring it where I live, even if it is approved, but others need to know. w3rv |
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote: "Dave VanHorn" wrote in message ... After having gone to the ARRL site and listened to the examples, all I can say is it sounds just like precipitation static and/or loose connections. No way would I be able to identify one from the other. I'm just going to have to complain every time I hear noise and make recordings. If it's noisy enough to be a problem it should be fixed. Any hope of us non-arrl members getting something to listen to? Dave, The ARRL video is not in the "members only" part of the site ... it's easy to find from the articles on BPL in the public area. Carl - wk3c http://216.167.96.120/BPL_Trial-web.mpg http://216.167.96.120/BPL_Trial-small.mpg |
Saw Roger K8RI's post as well, but will try to answer as well.
Bay County has around 300 hams listed, Saginaw has almost 500 listed, and Midland has about 230-250 listed as hams living in those areas. The Midland Amateur Radio Club has about 80 members with about 20-30 actually active. The Bay Area Amateur Radio Club has about 35-50 club members and has about 20 or so that are active and the Saginaw Valley Amateur Radio Association has about 30 members with somewhere between 15-20 members active. It's kinda funny though, with almost a thousand hams between 3 counties, I sure as hell do not hear much on the ham bands, both HF and VHF/UHF. One would think that they would hear a ton of radio usage but thats not the case.... I would say that maybe 10-20% of the total population around here is actually active on a regular basis. (that's probably true about alot of things though... :) -- Ryan, KC8PMX FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!) --. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-. ... --. .... - . .-. ... "Howard" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:20:31 -0400, "Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote: Just found out today listening to a local, reputable radio station that Bay, Saginaw and Midland Counties in Michigan are going to be "test sites" for BPL, at least for Michigan. I don't know when it will be an actual reality, as opposed to being in the planning stages, but will keep current with their project! Ryan KC8PMX Midland, Michigan What the "ham density" like in the Tri-Cities these days? Moved away 27 years ago (Bay City/Essexville) and not having been a ham then I was out of touch with such things. I do know that it wasn't too high a population density overall - perhaps they are targeting low ham population areas in the testing so they can show a low interference complaint volume? I think Carl's on track in his post; the more credible the reports of interference the more likely they will be taken seriously. Howard |
Exactly, must sent in complaints. Or the 'utilities' will say...."we got
very few complaints" Some of the trial areas have about 10 homes in them. The industry still says, with a straight face, we had no reports of interference, so this "proves" we won't interfere. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI |
Yes and no Carl.... if it makes it impossible to RECIEVE our local broadcast
stations, I would think that the local broadcasters would be VERY interested to know that nobody is getting thier signal, except cable subscribers. A number of hams have reported to the FCC that there was interference to the AM BC band in Emmaus, PA. In my last visit there, I tuned the AM band while parked in the trial area and heard no BPL interference whatsoever. From the looks of the comments, someone posted a "template" and urged hams to file it. The BPL problem appears to be primarily one of HF and low VHF. There may be some harmonics into the TV channels, but those harmonics will be a LOT weaker than ours are, so we need to be careful of what we wish for. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI |
You raise an interesting question, Carl. How exactly should the
average ham go about proving that the RFI is indeed BPL, when the BPL people say "That's not us!'?? In the case in Emmaus, the PPL rep told a reporter that Carl had misidentified a "neon sign" (in a residential neighborhood) as BPL. First, Carl is professionally adept with spread spectrum, so he knows what an SS signal sounds like. The signal was heard only in the trial area and when I was in Emmaus, I worked with a local in the trial area who downloaded files for me. When the download started, the noise started; when it stopped, the noise stopped. What really proves it to be not a neon sign, however, is that the time-domain (oscilloscope) signature of the received signal does not have a pronounced 120-Hz signature. Had the PPL representative actually looked at the signal, he would have known that his "explanation" was pretty transparent. I have extended by email a very cordial inviation for the PPL folks to attend a local club talk I gave; they did not respond. I then emailed a cordial invitation to work with them on interference issues; they did not respond. This boggles the mind, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars of my company's money and a national organization came to me and told me that there was a serious problem with the technology, and offered to drive over 200 miles just to show it to me, I think I would spend the hour or two and take a look. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI |
So to repeat, how does the average ham, whom you have exhorted to
"make sure it's BPL that you're complaining about", go about detecting and sorting which is what, given that spectral analysis gear, and the training to use it if it was available, is virtually nonexistnt in the average hamshack? Is there a aural signature or more than one for the different BPL modes? Is the Emmaus test site video/audio clip reresentative enough to make the call, or is something more needed? Carl had suggested that those that suspect they have BPL interference contact me. ARRL can help ask the right questions and analyze the pattern. Many hams do have the abiltity to use an oscilloscope and may be able to do some time-domain analysis themselves. I expect that if it was indeed BPL RFI it would follow the power grid pretty closely with signal strength highest when close, and tapering off with distance away from the lines. But from the one report posted here of a ham who said he heard it from a distance of 60 miles, seems like propagation will play into the picture-to be expected at HF as all experienced HF ham operators know. Or maybe *he* mis-identified it! That is almost certain. At a few hundred homes and BPL power levels, it is not possible for a small number of signals to propagate by skywave at a level strong enough to be heard. When there are tens of thousands of simultaneous signals, that may be *just* possible, but not at all certain. So who do hams call for assistance, the ARRL? I haven't seen anything from them suggesting that. I have just completed the draft of the letter that ARRL will send to hams in the trial cities, asking for reports and offering to help vet them before they are sent. It should go out this week. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI ARRL Lab |
The Emmaus test site video (test area #3) should be pretty representative
of the "main.net" system ... test area #4 is the Amperion OFDM system. There could be others that might have different "signatures" ... Just as a mnor correction, test area #4, in Briarcliff Manor, NY, is an Ambient system. The Amperion system is also OFDM and has a very similar sound. I found it easily in Whitehall, PA, once I drove into the test area. 73, Ed Hare, W1RFI |
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