12 v or 13.8?
 

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Hi Don,

Do the math. You have the same load - less voltage. The power laws
describe this simply as E²/R.

However, it is very, very, very unlikely that you have 12.0 V of
anything as this is a "nominal" voltage, and almost never an actual
voltage. The 12 V label is derived from the common application of the
Lead-Acid Edison Battery. The cells of this battery develop 2.1 V
potential, and with their common combination into batteries of either
3 cells or 6 cells, those bring the total up to 6.3 V or 12.6 V. Many
here will recognize these values as common filament voltages for
tubes. So even here, common transformers that are either 6 or 12 V
specified, actually supply more voltage under load (because they were
originally filament power transformers).

The specification for 13.8 V is derived from the automotive electrical
system that was designed (with its voltage regulator and
generator/alternator) to supply a "float" voltage that would keep the
battery topped off while simultaneously carrying the load. Hence,
mobile applications are designed for this configuration and the source
should be robust enough to support the load.

Now, it seems to me you were using a deep discharge battery, or you
were planning to do so. This is a common application in the shack, I
have two batteries in parallel held up with a 20A trickle charge
(voltage adjusted to the optimum value). The charger (actually a
precision source from Acopian) is not large enough to supply my HF
rigs under full power out (my Drake TR-7 is rated well above 100W) but
the combination of batteries and charger manage quite well. Also, I
have connectored everything so that I can strip down, transport and
reconfigure for field day operations (sans charger).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?


Astron RS-20A, or a RS-20M if you want meters. That'll handle your 45
watt radio. It's a 12 volt power supply that is internally adjustable
up to and above 13.8 volts. Get the RS-35 if you plan on adding an HF
rig to your station. Astron is standard equipment on many radio desks.

ac6xg

"Jim Kelley" wrote in message
...


wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?


Astron RS-20A, or a RS-20M if you want meters. That'll handle your 45
watt radio. It's a 12 volt power supply that is internally adjustable up
to and above 13.8 volts. Get the RS-35 if you plan on adding an HF rig to
your station. Astron is standard equipment on many radio desks.

ac6xg

I agree with Jim about Astron. Been using 'em for decades. Simple, robust
design. Zero failures.
The voltage conundrum I believe derives from the necessary voltage to charge
a 12 volt battery.
Gotta overcome that old internal resistance; Turns out to be about 13.8
volts.
I don't know of a "12V" ham rig that would care about the difference.
Get outside the manufacturer's specified range (RTFB) and you may not have a
warranty.
73
H., NQ5H

Richard Clark wrote:
On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get
a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Hi Don,

Do the math. You have the same load - less voltage. The power laws
describe this simply as E=B2/R.

However, it is very, very, very unlikely that you have 12.0 V of
anything as this is a "nominal" voltage, and almost never an actual
voltage. The 12 V label is derived from the common application of
the
Lead-Acid Edison Battery. The cells of this battery develop 2.1 V
potential, and with their common combination into batteries of either
3 cells or 6 cells, those bring the total up to 6.3 V or 12.6 V.
Many
here will recognize these values as common filament voltages for
tubes. So even here, common transformers that are either 6 or 12 V
specified, actually supply more voltage under load (because they were
originally filament power transformers).

The specification for 13.8 V is derived from the automotive
electrical
system that was designed (with its voltage regulator and
generator/alternator) to supply a "float" voltage that would keep the
battery topped off while simultaneously carrying the load. Hence,
mobile applications are designed for this configuration and the
source
should be robust enough to support the load.

Now, it seems to me you were using a deep discharge battery, or you
were planning to do so. This is a common application in the shack, I
have two batteries in parallel held up with a 20A trickle charge
(voltage adjusted to the optimum value). The charger (actually a
precision source from Acopian) is not large enough to supply my HF
rigs under full power out (my Drake TR-7 is rated well above 100W)
but
the combination of batteries and charger manage quite well. Also, I
have connectored everything so that I can strip down, transport and
reconfigure for field day operations (sans charger).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I was looking at power supplies on ebay and some of them stated 12
volts (older ones) some said 13.8. That is why I asked.
I am still a little confused on what way I need to go.

wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:

On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:


When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get

a

12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Hi Don,

Do the math. You have the same load - less voltage. The power laws
describe this simply as E²/R.

However, it is very, very, very unlikely that you have 12.0 V of
anything as this is a "nominal" voltage, and almost never an actual
voltage. The 12 V label is derived from the common application of

the

Lead-Acid Edison Battery. The cells of this battery develop 2.1 V
potential, and with their common combination into batteries of either
3 cells or 6 cells, those bring the total up to 6.3 V or 12.6 V.

Many

here will recognize these values as common filament voltages for
tubes. So even here, common transformers that are either 6 or 12 V
specified, actually supply more voltage under load (because they were
originally filament power transformers).

The specification for 13.8 V is derived from the automotive

electrical

system that was designed (with its voltage regulator and
generator/alternator) to supply a "float" voltage that would keep the
battery topped off while simultaneously carrying the load. Hence,
mobile applications are designed for this configuration and the

source

should be robust enough to support the load.

Now, it seems to me you were using a deep discharge battery, or you
were planning to do so. This is a common application in the shack, I
have two batteries in parallel held up with a 20A trickle charge
(voltage adjusted to the optimum value). The charger (actually a
precision source from Acopian) is not large enough to supply my HF
rigs under full power out (my Drake TR-7 is rated well above 100W)

but

the combination of batteries and charger manage quite well. Also, I
have connectored everything so that I can strip down, transport and
reconfigure for field day operations (sans charger).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I was looking at power supplies on ebay and some of them stated 12
volts (older ones) some said 13.8. That is why I asked.
I am still a little confused on what way I need to go.

Richard always writes as if he's entering a prose contest. He has some
difficulty communicating with Earthlings. :-)

ac6xg

"Jim Kelley" wrote in message
...
snip
Richard always writes as if he's entering a prose contest. He has some
difficulty communicating with Earthlings. :-)

ac6xg

Jim
That's 'cause he gets his plonk from Reg.
;^))))
73
H.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Richard Clark wrote:
On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get
a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Hi Don,

Do the math. You have the same load - less voltage. The power laws
describe this simply as E²/R.

However, it is very, very, very unlikely that you have 12.0 V of
anything as this is a "nominal" voltage, and almost never an actual
voltage. The 12 V label is derived from the common application of
the
Lead-Acid Edison Battery. The cells of this battery develop 2.1 V
potential, and with their common combination into batteries of either
3 cells or 6 cells, those bring the total up to 6.3 V or 12.6 V.
Many
here will recognize these values as common filament voltages for
tubes. So even here, common transformers that are either 6 or 12 V
specified, actually supply more voltage under load (because they were
originally filament power transformers).

The specification for 13.8 V is derived from the automotive
electrical
system that was designed (with its voltage regulator and
generator/alternator) to supply a "float" voltage that would keep the
battery topped off while simultaneously carrying the load. Hence,
mobile applications are designed for this configuration and the
source
should be robust enough to support the load.

Now, it seems to me you were using a deep discharge battery, or you
were planning to do so. This is a common application in the shack, I
have two batteries in parallel held up with a 20A trickle charge
(voltage adjusted to the optimum value). The charger (actually a
precision source from Acopian) is not large enough to supply my HF
rigs under full power out (my Drake TR-7 is rated well above 100W)
but
the combination of batteries and charger manage quite well. Also, I
have connectored everything so that I can strip down, transport and
reconfigure for field day operations (sans charger).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I was looking at power supplies on ebay and some of them stated 12
volts (older ones) some said 13.8. That is why I asked.
I am still a little confused on what way I need to go.

As far as I know, 100% of supplies sold for ham use are 13.8V, or
thereabouts. 12 Volts was a standard voltage for many linear ICs, along with
15 V. My Astron switching supply came set for 14.05 V. I don't see that as a
problem because all my stuff can be used in a car, and I have never seen the
car voltage drop below 14 V with the engine running.

Tam/WB2TT

"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Richard Clark wrote:
On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get
a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Hi Don,

Do the math. You have the same load - less voltage. The power laws
describe this simply as E²/R.

However, it is very, very, very unlikely that you have 12.0 V of
anything as this is a "nominal" voltage, and almost never an actual
voltage. The 12 V label is derived from the common application of
the
Lead-Acid Edison Battery. The cells of this battery develop 2.1 V
potential, and with their common combination into batteries of either
3 cells or 6 cells, those bring the total up to 6.3 V or 12.6 V.
Many
here will recognize these values as common filament voltages for
tubes. So even here, common transformers that are either 6 or 12 V
specified, actually supply more voltage under load (because they were
originally filament power transformers).

The specification for 13.8 V is derived from the automotive
electrical
system that was designed (with its voltage regulator and
generator/alternator) to supply a "float" voltage that would keep the
battery topped off while simultaneously carrying the load. Hence,
mobile applications are designed for this configuration and the
source
should be robust enough to support the load.

Now, it seems to me you were using a deep discharge battery, or you
were planning to do so. This is a common application in the shack, I
have two batteries in parallel held up with a 20A trickle charge
(voltage adjusted to the optimum value). The charger (actually a
precision source from Acopian) is not large enough to supply my HF
rigs under full power out (my Drake TR-7 is rated well above 100W)
but
the combination of batteries and charger manage quite well. Also, I
have connectored everything so that I can strip down, transport and
reconfigure for field day operations (sans charger).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I was looking at power supplies on ebay and some of them stated 12
volts (older ones) some said 13.8. That is why I asked.
I am still a little confused on what way I need to go.

As far as I know, 100% of supplies sold for ham use are 13.8V, or
thereabouts. 12 Volts was a standard voltage for many linear ICs, along
with 15 V. My Astron switching supply came set for 14.05 V. I don't see
that as a problem because all my stuff can be used in a car, and I have
never seen the car voltage drop below 14 V with the engine running.

Tam/WB2TT

Bingo
Try Sealed Lead Acid batteries, BTW.
73
H.

wrote
I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Starting with a new battery, I have used a 12v marine deep-cell with small
float-charger to power a 25w VHF transceiver for over two years. For short
periods, this will handle 100w xmit on an HF rig that draws 20-30amp. When a
charger is connected to a battery, adequate ventilation must be provided,
and the smoking lamp is "out". There is nothing wrong with using an
emergency backup battery as part of normal (indoor) operations. It will
provide hundreds of hours of monitoring and several minutes of low-power
transmit w/o requiring a charge.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Get a 13.8 vdc from radio shack. or turn up your 12 to 13.2

wrote in message
ups.com...
When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

Jack Painter wrote:
wrote
I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else
posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Starting with a new battery, I have used a 12v marine deep-cell with
small
float-charger to power a 25w VHF transceiver for over two years. For
short
periods, this will handle 100w xmit on an HF rig that draws 20-30amp.
When a
charger is connected to a battery, adequate ventilation must be
provided,
and the smoking lamp is "out". There is nothing wrong with using an
emergency backup battery as part of normal (indoor) operations. It
will
provide hundreds of hours of monitoring and several minutes of
low-power
transmit w/o requiring a charge.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

How do you "vent" a batter thay is constantly hooked up to a trickel
charger?

wrote

Jack Painter wrote:
wrote
I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else
posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Starting with a new battery, I have used a 12v marine deep-cell with
small
float-charger to power a 25w VHF transceiver for over two years. For
short
periods, this will handle 100w xmit on an HF rig that draws 20-30amp.
When a
charger is connected to a battery, adequate ventilation must be
provided,
and the smoking lamp is "out". There is nothing wrong with using an
emergency backup battery as part of normal (indoor) operations. It
will
provide hundreds of hours of monitoring and several minutes of
low-power
transmit w/o requiring a charge.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

How do you "vent" a batter thay is constantly hooked up to a trickel
charger?

First, mine is not constantly connected to the charger. When it is, I have a
window open and a fan circulating air in the station. Battery vents in an
automotive or outdoor environment often become sealed-shut. This is not the
case with a clean battery used indoors-only. A very small amount of moisture
is sometimes visible on the surface of the battery around the vents
following use of a powerful charger. This has never been my experience from
the trickle-charger, however. Keep the battery surfaces clean, verify that
the vents exist, then leave them in their normal (not loosened) condition
and all is well. Not all batteries are vented and I would avoid using any
charger indoors in that situation.

Jack

Jim -

How politically correct!

In the military it is called "Getting $12,000 worth of education shoved
up your rear end a nickel at a time".

On 25 Jan 2005 08:22:59 -0800, wrote:

When looking for a power supply for my Alinco dr-590, what type of
power supply would I look for? The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a
12 volt power supply will it put out the same wattage at the radio?

THe owner's manual of most radios will give you a range of voltages;
for example, one of my Icoms recommends 13.8 volts, plus or minus 15
percent. Check your manual, if you have it, or try to get a copy from
one of the internet places that sell such things.

bob
k5qwg

On 25 Jan 2005 11:12:20 -0800, wrote:

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Hi Don,

Well it seems in the interim, you got good advice as to battery use in
the shack, and shabby advice about writing. ;-)

For the record, my batteries are actually sealed lead-acid Hawker
Energy (Gates) Cyclon BC Cell (25 AH) and not cheap - but then they
are rock solid. I went this direction knowing full well most
batteries die because of one cell failure - this way I can replace the
dead cell. My buddy used a deep discharge battery that was over
floated (probably 15V) and he rarely minded the water level (too bad
too) as he boiled it down. There was some obvious corrosion near the
battery (sitting open to the environment, and he's a heavy smoker) but
nothing widespread (his battery sat in a plastic tray on a wooden
shelf).

During normal use at field day, my batteries lasted many hours. When
the rig began to sputter, I swapped one out to charge from the car. I
also monitored the voltage, and rarely ran below 11.5 Volts. Even
with a "quick" charge, I would always current limit it to about 5A.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little..............

I've been using batteries in the house for 15 years or longer. Never a
problem,
and I've never noticed the fumes. You only get heavy fumes when really
heavily
charging, or when overheating, from overcharging. I use a 12/2 amp
automatic
charger to keep the battery up. It's on 24/7. The only real drawback to

batteries is the corrosion that builds up. It's no big deal really, but
it does
have to be cleaned off from time to time, and also the connectors will
need to
be cleaned from time to time. That crud is highly corrosive, and
probably would
eat/stain carpet, etc...So keep the battery on some kind of pad, if not
in a
battery case. I have an inverter for emergency 117v use...Have used it
quite a
few times when the lights go out do to powerline problems, blown
transformers,
etc..I'm still on the air, plus can use a lightbulb, watch TV, etc..MK

P.S. When using batteries, always use the proper safety
precautions...Batteries
can explode. Don't unhook, hook hot radios, chargers, to cause a spark.
Turn
them off first, hook up, and then turn back on. When I hook up my
icoms, I have
to actually unhook the cable from the back of the radio, if I don't
want a spark.
The finals are always hot on the icoms, and will draw current/make a
spark, even
with the radio off. So I'll hook it all up, and plug the cable to the
706 last.
My IC-730 is the same way. Blowing up a battery in the house could be
nasty...
But saying that, I wouldn't let that scare you...I've never had a
problem...You
can always keep it in a battery case, under a table, etc, for extra
protection.
MK

Richard Clark wrote:
On 25 Jan 2005 11:12:20 -0800, wrote:

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else
posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Hi Don,

Well it seems in the interim, you got good advice as to battery use
in
the shack, and shabby advice about writing. ;-)

For the record, my batteries are actually sealed lead-acid Hawker
Energy (Gates) Cyclon BC Cell (25 AH) and not cheap - but then they
are rock solid. I went this direction knowing full well most
batteries die because of one cell failure - this way I can replace
the
dead cell. My buddy used a deep discharge battery that was over
floated (probably 15V) and he rarely minded the water level (too bad
too) as he boiled it down. There was some obvious corrosion near the
battery (sitting open to the environment, and he's a heavy smoker)
but
nothing widespread (his battery sat in a plastic tray on a wooden
shelf).

During normal use at field day, my batteries lasted many hours. When
the rig began to sputter, I swapped one out to charge from the car.
I
also monitored the voltage, and rarely ran below 11.5 Volts. Even
with a "quick" charge, I would always current limit it to about 5A.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Richard Clark wrote:
On 25 Jan 2005 11:12:20 -0800, wrote:

So you are saying it wont matter?

I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else
posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

Hi Don,

Well it seems in the interim, you got good advice as to battery use
in
the shack, and shabby advice about writing. ;-)

For the record, my batteries are actually sealed lead-acid Hawker
Energy (Gates) Cyclon BC Cell (25 AH) and not cheap - but then they
are rock solid. I went this direction knowing full well most
batteries die because of one cell failure - this way I can replace
the
dead cell. My buddy used a deep discharge battery that was over
floated (probably 15V) and he rarely minded the water level (too bad
too) as he boiled it down. There was some obvious corrosion near the
battery (sitting open to the environment, and he's a heavy smoker)
but
nothing widespread (his battery sat in a plastic tray on a wooden
shelf).

During normal use at field day, my batteries lasted many hours. When
the rig began to sputter, I swapped one out to charge from the car.
I
also monitored the voltage, and rarely ran below 11.5 Volts. Even
with a "quick" charge, I would always current limit it to about 5A.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.


I don't know what other's opinions will be regarding this, BUT - mine is NO.
I know a guy who fried a H.F. radio twice by doing that. Maybe he didn't
have it connected altogether properly, but the charger fried his radio twice
and it cost him a few bucks to get it fixed both times. The first time, he
didn't say what caused the failure. The second time, he figured out it had
to be the charger. Since he quit using the charger at the same time - once
the set was repaired - again, the set has worked fine. And yes, he still
uses the battery and a charger. He just disconnects the charger before
using - now.

L.

"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message
...
I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I have a marine battery charged by an Astron RS-20M and a 75w solar panel.
I monitor the battery voltage and shut off the charging system when the
battery
is charged. That decreases the possibility of battery failure.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
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For the record, my batteries are actually sealed lead-acid Hawker
Energy (Gates) Cyclon BC Cell (25 AH) and not cheap - but then they
are rock solid.

Same ones I use! :)
Floated across a switchmode 15A charger set to 13.8V.
Been in service for 6 or 7 years with no trouble.

I added an "aw ****" fuse at 60A between the middle terminals at the 6V
point, and it has a couple of hefty outputs ending in powerpoles.

Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

Only if the charger isn't set properly.

What we're doing is called "float" service, where the charger voltage is set
lower than it would be for normal "recharge a dead battery" sorts of
applications. You have to check your particular battery's spec, but most
sit around 13.8-ish instead of the normal charger output of about 14.4.

I don't know what other's opinions will be regarding this, BUT - mine is
NO. I know a guy who fried a H.F. radio twice by doing that. Maybe he
didn't have it connected altogether properly, but the charger fried his
radio twice and it cost him a few bucks to get it fixed both times. The
first time, he didn't say what caused the failure. The second time, he
figured out it had to be the charger. Since he quit using the charger at
the same time - once the set was repaired - again, the set has worked
fine. And yes, he still uses the battery and a charger. He just
disconnects the charger before using - now.

Well, there's all sorts of junk out there called "chargers", and most are
not designed to be on the battery continuously, and some don't have any
output voltage regulation at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all, if he
connected the radio to the "charger" without a battery in place, and got
18-25V or so applied to the radio.

For this sort of service, you want a unit with regulated output voltage, and
a trim adjustment.
I use switchmode because it's way more efficient, and therefore runs with no
observable heat.
There is no noise or hum into the radio, even when it's putting full output
into the battery.

My Samlex charger works nicely, and will deliver 13.8V to an open circuit,
or a 1 ohm load.

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...
I don't know what other's opinions will be regarding this, BUT - mine is
NO. I know a guy who fried a H.F. radio twice by doing that. Maybe he
didn't have it connected altogether properly, but the charger fried his
radio twice and it cost him a few bucks to get it fixed both times. The
first time, he didn't say what caused the failure. The second time, he
figured out it had to be the charger. Since he quit using the charger at
the same time - once the set was repaired - again, the set has worked
fine. And yes, he still uses the battery and a charger. He just
disconnects the charger before using - now.

Well, there's all sorts of junk out there called "chargers", and most are
not designed to be on the battery continuously, and some don't have any
output voltage regulation at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all, if he
connected the radio to the "charger" without a battery in place, and got
18-25V or so applied to the radio.

For this sort of service, you want a unit with regulated output voltage,
and a trim adjustment.
I use switchmode because it's way more efficient, and therefore runs with
no observable heat.
There is no noise or hum into the radio, even when it's putting full
output into the battery.

My Samlex charger works nicely, and will deliver 13.8V to an open circuit,
or a 1 ohm load.



I didn't see the actual charger the guy used, but when the rig fried the 2nd
time and he fessed up with his hook up, then I questioned the voltage. He
didn't fess up the first time as he felt it was hooked up ok and there was
nothing to have caused it aside from a "radio" failure. In his mind, it was
a "12 volt charger" - it should have worked - must have been the radio." And
all he said was - it was hooked up to a battery. Saying nothing of the
charger since he felt it wasn't at fault. His charger was putting out close
to 18 VDC - when I asked him to check it - via phone. So, I told him, there
is your culprit. As to how well it was "supposed" to be regulated, I don't
know - but, he learned a lesson that time - an expensive lesson. "I"
realize - all power supplies and chargers aren't created equal - he didn't -
he was just getting into Ham when that happened. He seen a diagram I guess,
but it said nothing of voltages or other hazards to avoid. So, he followed
it and whalah - snap, crackle, pop. At the moment, it did seem it could have
been a "radio" failure meaning a part "could" have went bad from age/use -
possible former abuse - the set was used when he bought it. AND according to
him, it didn't blow right away, which sort of masked the fault - aside from
the concealing the charger. When it went south the 2nd time almost
immediately, then there "had" to be a reason to have caused it. Once the
culprit was found, the radio repaired - again, he's had good use of it
since.

L.

His charger was putting out close
to 18 VDC - when I asked him to check it - via phone. So, I told him,
there is your culprit.

That's what I suspected, unregulated output, without the battery in the loop
to absorb the energy.

This comes from using a "charger" as a regulated power supply.
Note that a regulated power supply makes a much better charger, than even a
"charger".

On 26 Jan 2005 05:32:13 -0800, wrote:

Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

Hi Don,

Well then, I must presume it is the inferior product to blame (or
perhaps inferior advice). Take note that Dave has an identical
installation and we both suffer no problems whatever and this is for
YEARS of sustained service.

Hawker guarantees my cells for 15 Years of life and fully recommends a
continuous float charge. There are probably 100 Million batteries in
hospital corridors, schools, churches, theaters, public service
buildings all sitting there on a float charge waiting to turn on the
emergency lighting. In fact my current limiting of the quick charge
is overly conservative as Hawker explicitly offers there is no
restriction to inrush current from professional grade chargers.

Lou's report of his buddy's charger running at 18 V is nothing short
of a death wish with a meter indicator. If you read the precautions
printed on that charger's box, it also says it is dangerous to charge
an automotive battery with it while the battery is still connected to
the automotive electronics.

If you choose to employ cycle charging (where you disconnect the
charger and run the battery down), then you need to run at a higher
charge voltage which is typical of most chargers off the shelf for
automotive work where you are doing a battery overnight. The higher
voltage is NOT GOOD for floating - unless you have deep pockets for
battery replacement. In the case of automotive batteries, their ONLY
use is to start the engine. After that, they are little more than a
chemical capacitor for the alternator's supply to the automotive
electrical system. In the old days, better cars had a dash mounted
Ammeter. The plus indication showed a slight positive indication for
the alternator load (charge and ignition in the days before megawatt
stereo systems); or a negative indication when you were running on
battery alone (and your -well in this case, and age- generator was
shot).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Stryped wrote:
"The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a 12 volt power supply will it
put out the same voltage at the radio:"

No. All supply cables have an IR drop.

Automobiles supply a d-c voltage to charge the battery which cranks the
engine and supplies the accessories when the engine is off.

SETTING THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR IS A PROBLEM. iT MUST BE SET HIGH ENOUGH
TO TOP OFF THE BATTERY AND LOW ENOUGH NOT TO BOIL THE BATTERY WATER AWAY
(OUTGASING).

To complicate matters, at least four different automobile battery
constructions are used. All have different ideal charging voltages at
the same temperature and for the same use.

Battery and charging system manufacturers disagree with each other and
even with themselves.

In the 1970`s , the low-maintenance calcium-lead battery appeared. It
was designed to avoid outgasing and water addition to the battery. The
original battery had had antimony added to its lead plates to strengthen
them for mobilr bumps and shakes.The lead-calcium battery had calcium
replacing the antimony. Battery manufacturers then had a new idea. They
used antimony in the positive lead plate and calcium in the negative
lead plate. They called this the "hybrid battery"

Some car makers then decided to adapt the "gel-cell" to autos. This
should take no water but woiuld not like being overcharged.

I`ve had satisfactory experience with calcium-lead batteries. In several
crosscountry microwave systems these were used to float on the d-c power
supply. The voltage of the supply was set by experiment to a voltage
which would top off the batteries so that they could run the equipment
for several hours when the powerline failed but not gass so much that
they frequently required water. The batteries had very long useful lives
and cost much less than nicads. The cells had no memory problems or
polarity reversals as the nicads sometimes did.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI
..

More batteries have probably been destroyed by improper charging
than any other single cause.

Could be, but these cheap Chinese batteies are gaining ground every day.
http://www.dvanhorn.org/NIMH/Index.php is some work that I've done on the
subject. I have another, more spectacular failure to post when I get time to
write it up properly.

This second one, and I suspect also the one shown on my page now, are NOT
the result of bad charging, but bad cells.


I gather that you know all this stuff so my ranting is really for
the benefit of others who don't.

Well worth saying though!

Do you have any non-marketing info on the "Optima" batteries?
I'm looking to enhance my capacity here, one way or another.

"Jim Higgins" wrote

I notice an earlier "expert" recommended against charging sealed
cells indoors. Hogwash! That's exactly one of the reasons
sealed cells like the Cyclons were developed. The other was to
eliminate the high labor expense - not to mention hassle - of
frequent checks and water additions.

I never said I was an "expert", I only described my own safe use of a 12v
deep cell marine battery indoors. But I notice your setup:

I'm sitting here looking at my own setup
using a standard auto starting battery - cheap non-sealed Walmart
special

- Does NOT include a sealed battery, many of which are just cheap junk that
could easily blow up with too much charge, and giving general advice to
someone not knowledgeable about batteries, would be don't charge them
indoors. That stands as good advice until you can demonstrate otherwise, and
accept the responsibility for accidents resulting from misuse of batteries
or charging equipment.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

wrote:



Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently.
Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

No. Thats the whole point of the "automatic" charger. The old style
"trickle"
chargers should not be left on past full charge for long periods.
I use a 12/2 automatic, and it's on 24/7. But, same for my 706. It's
usually
on 24/7...I bought it in 2001, and it probably hasn't had a full weeks
rest
since then...When a "12v" battery thats on a charger reaches appx 14.4
volts, it's
fully charged. If you unplug the charger, or if automatic cut off, the
voltage
will drop down to about 13.8v. When it drops much lower than that, the
charger
kicks back on, charges to appx 14.4v, and cuts off...Over and
over..This manner
of charging won't hurt a battery, and can be left on all day if you
want.
A trickle charger reaches 14.4, and keeps charging, but with a lower
current
level. It won't hurt it for short periods of time, but after a while,
the battery
overheats, and thats when you start boiling off electrolyte...How bad
depends on
the charge rate...A 1 amp or less trickle charge is not near as bad as
a 3-5
amp trickle charge to a fully charged battery. But after switching to
automatic,
I could never go back to the old style manual chargers...With those,
sometimes
I would forget to cut them off...And sometimes, I would cut them off,
and forget
to plug back in, and eventually, have a dead battery...Thats worse than
overcharging..
MK

wrote in message
ups.com...
Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.


Geeeeez just jump in AND DO SOMETHING!!! Get your feet
wet, you going to spend the rest of your life worrying about what might
happen? Take the proper precautions and get with it. Try to ENJOY the
hobby!!!!!

This is not to say that Optima or Cyclon are bad battteries.
It's to say that ham radio backup is not what they're designed
for. Both will make a really sweet home UPS system, and there
are some obvious advantages to a sealed design, not the least
being satisfying any spousal concerns over damage to "her"
carpet, etc. But you'll get more bang for your buck with a
battery designed to deliver more amp-hours over a longer period.

Ok, so what would you reccomend for a battery that sits indoors (but in a
battery box if need be) and would be on float most of the time, with deep
discharge at say C/10 or C/20-ish rates?

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...

This is not to say that Optima or Cyclon are bad battteries.
It's to say that ham radio backup is not what they're designed
for. Both will make a really sweet home UPS system, and there
are some obvious advantages to a sealed design, not the least
being satisfying any spousal concerns over damage to "her"
carpet, etc. But you'll get more bang for your buck with a
battery designed to deliver more amp-hours over a longer period.

Ok, so what would you reccomend for a battery that sits indoors (but in a
battery box if need be) and would be on float most of the time, with deep
discharge at say C/10 or C/20-ish rates?



A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.
73
H.

"Jim Higgins" wrote
"Jack Painter" wrote:

"Jim Higgins" wrote

I notice an earlier "expert" recommended against charging sealed
cells indoors. Hogwash! That's exactly one of the reasons
sealed cells like the Cyclons were developed. The other was to
eliminate the high labor expense - not to mention hassle - of
frequent checks and water additions.

I never said I was an "expert", I only described my own safe use of a 12v
deep cell marine battery indoors. But I notice your setup:

I'm sitting here looking at my own setup using a standard auto
starting battery - cheap non-sealed Walmart special

- Does NOT include a sealed battery, many of which are just cheap junk
that
could easily blow up with too much charge, and giving general advice to
someone not knowledgeable about batteries, would be don't charge them
indoors. That stands as good advice until you can demonstrate otherwise,
and
accept the responsibility for accidents resulting from misuse of
batteries
or charging equipment.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack, you basically don't know enough about what you're talking
about to be giving advice - especially since you now want to play
the safety card. If you're really concerned with safety, then
anecdotal advice based on limited personal experience is NOT the
way to go. I suggest you heed your own advice regarding
accepting responsibility.


OK Jim, I'll accept you were an expert in the battery field, and your advice
is appreciated. How about just quoting some of your
manufacturer-recommendations for safe battery charging? You know, the kind
that are in large, bold print, usually in red ink, in both the battery and
charger instructions? "Cautions" and "Warnings", listing various types of
personal injury, or death, that can result from misuse or failure to follow
instructions. Unfortunately, these warnings don't travel around with used
batteries and used chargers that sit in someone's garage for decades.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.

I suspect that having the word "aircraft" on the case will cost me dearly.

What would that equate to in terms of something I might find at battery
masters, or the inexpensive section of batteries plus?

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...


A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.

I suspect that having the word "aircraft" on the case will cost me dearly.

What would that equate to in terms of something I might find at battery
masters, or the inexpensive section of batteries plus?


I think a car stereo store
But the same technology is available without FAA approval ;^)

Dave VanHorn wrote:

A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.


I suspect that having the word "aircraft" on the case will cost me dearly.

What would that equate to in terms of something I might find at battery
masters, or the inexpensive section of batteries plus?


I would never use an aircraft battery for anything other than in an
aircraft. For weight savings aircraft everything is made as light as
possible consistent with safety and operation. Light weight and battery
capacity are completely at odds with each other.

Dave WD9BDZ

"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
...
Dave VanHorn wrote:

A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.


I suspect that having the word "aircraft" on the case will cost me
dearly.

What would that equate to in terms of something I might find at battery
masters, or the inexpensive section of batteries plus?


I would never use an aircraft battery for anything other than in an
aircraft. For weight savings aircraft everything is made as light as
possible consistent with safety and operation. Light weight and battery
capacity are completely at odds with each other.

Dave WD9BDZ

The aircraft sealed lead acids and the ones at the car stereo store are
almost identical.
My point on a sealed battery has to do with hydrogen gas in a closed space.
H.
NQ5H
(And a pilot since '67)

"Jim Higgins" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:22:12 -0600, in
, "H. Adam Stevens, NQ5H"
wrote:


"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
...
Dave VanHorn wrote:

A sealed lead acid battery. Like in airplanes.


I suspect that having the word "aircraft" on the case will cost me
dearly.

What would that equate to in terms of something I might find at battery
masters, or the inexpensive section of batteries plus?


I would never use an aircraft battery for anything other than in an
aircraft. For weight savings aircraft everything is made as light as
possible consistent with safety and operation. Light weight and battery
capacity are completely at odds with each other.

Dave WD9BDZ

The aircraft sealed lead acids and the ones at the car stereo store are
almost identical.
My point on a sealed battery has to do with hydrogen gas in a closed
space.
H.
NQ5H
(And a pilot since '67)


Sealed batteries don't produce hydrogen unless heavily
overcharged, and then they produce considerably less than a
flooded battery.

73 de Jim, KB3PU

Precisely.
If you were to store a battery array indoors you wouldn't want hydrogen
venting.
Or would you?
;^)
(Got a match?)

I went to SLA batteries in my Baron because of the greatly reduced
corrosion.
Aerobatic folks like 'em 'cause you can fly inverted without making a mess.

73
H.