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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:52:37 GMT, "John" wrote:
Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? Hi John Use a propagation modeler and tailor the antenna characteristics to observe the results. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Angle of Radiation
Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of
radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues as to how to work this out. Thanks John |
Maybe check ON4UN's book -- "Low Band DXing"
He has info on this Too lengthy to quote here -- Caveat Lector (Reader Beware) Help The New Hams Someone Helped You Or did You Forget That ? "John" wrote in message ... Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues as to how to work this out. Thanks John |
Get W6ELProp - it's easy to use, and free. http://www.qsl.net/w6elprop/.
Roy Lewallen, W7EL John wrote: Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues as to how to work this out. Thanks John |
The elevation angle of a radio wave is not related to antenna construction.
It is calculated by trigonometry and is geometrically related to the distance between two points on the Earth's surface, the height of the ionospheric reflecting layers involved, and the number of hops. If a radio wave leaves the Earth at one end of the path and returns to Earth at the other end, then the elevation angles of the path taken are the same at both ends. And the same in the other direction. (To forestall nitpickers let it be said things can vary around averages.) The optimum angle at which to point a radio antenna, either for transmit or receive, is obviously the same as the elevation angle of the radio path. BUT NO AMOUNT OF WAVING THE ANTENNA ABOUT WILL AFFECT THE ELEVATION ANGLE OF THE RADIO PATH. For given points on the Earth's surface, height of reflecting layer, and number of hops, the angle of elevation of the radio path is fixed. The angle at which the radiation from an antenna is a maximum is an entirely different matter. Calculation of a path elevation angle on a curved Earth not very difficult but is a little too complicated to be written here. Up to 1500 groundpath miles the Earth can be considered to be flat. Trig calculation is then schoolkids stuff. Full formulae can be found in maths books under "Spherical Trigonometry" or in practical radio engineering books. Calculations can be interesting but are invariably roughly approximate because layer height involves guesswork. And by the time you've finished a calculation the height has shifted. Or the number of hops has changed from 2 to 3. The only things which remain static are your own latitude and longitude. To calculate propagation statistics of one and two hop radio paths, including elevation angles, download simple program TWOHOPS in a few seconds from website below and run immediately. ---- .................................................. .......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. .......... |
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote: The elevation angle of a radio wave is not related to antenna construction. It is calculated by trigonometry and is geometrically related to the distance between two points on the Earth's surface, the height of the ionospheric reflecting layers involved, and the number of hops. If a radio wave leaves the Earth at one end of the path and returns to Earth at the other end, then the elevation angles of the path taken are the same at both ends. And the same in the other direction. (To forestall nitpickers let it be said things can vary around averages.) The optimum angle at which to point a radio antenna, either for transmit or receive, is obviously the same as the elevation angle of the radio path. BUT NO AMOUNT OF WAVING THE ANTENNA ABOUT WILL AFFECT THE ELEVATION ANGLE OF THE RADIO PATH. For given points on the Earth's surface, height of reflecting layer, and number of hops, the angle of elevation of the radio path is fixed. The angle at which the radiation from an antenna is a maximum is an entirely different matter. Calculation of a path elevation angle on a curved Earth not very difficult but is a little too complicated to be written here. Up to 1500 groundpath miles the Earth can be considered to be flat. Trig calculation is then schoolkids stuff. Full formulae can be found in maths books under "Spherical Trigonometry" or in practical radio engineering books. Calculations can be interesting but are invariably roughly approximate because layer height involves guesswork. And by the time you've finished a calculation the height has shifted. Or the number of hops has changed from 2 to 3. The only things which remain static are your own latitude and longitude. To calculate propagation statistics of one and two hop radio paths, including elevation angles, download simple program TWOHOPS in a few seconds from website below and run immediately. The original poster, John, had already indicated the answer to his own question - but Reg was the only one who recognized that and had the correct follow up. Congrats, Reg. Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html |
John wrote:
Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues as to how to work this out. Try the propagation chapter in the ARRL Antenna Book. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Cecil Moore wrote:
John wrote: Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues to how to work this out. Try the propagation chapter in the ARRL Antenna Book. That would be a very good introduction to modern software like W6ELPROP. What it teaches you is that angles of arrival vary considerably, even for one given path, for reasons ranging from time of day to time in the 11/22-year sunspot cycle. Remember that the F-layer is constantly changing height, especially if it's around around dawn and dusk at one of the reflection points. This means that at certain times the propagation has to 'flip' from say 3-hop-F to 4-hop-F, so the angle will flip too. And don't forget the E-layer, if that's there too. W6ELPROP will actually tell you what propagation modes are the most likely at various times of day... and the reality is *much* more complicated than the simple pictures shown in older books. The ARRL Antenna Book does rather assume that you can put up any antenna you can dream of; in which case, it will help you design the optimum system. Ideally, the antenna needs to be able to adapt to the needs of the moment. But for most of us, it's much simpler than that. We can never achieve the low angles that are sometimes needed for some of the most important paths, so it simply comes down to doing the best we can. "Adaptability" comes down to possibly having a second-choice antenna... which at certain times may turn out to be better. But even if we can't actually *do* anything about it, it's better at least to understand that arrival angles (or conversely, optimum launch angles) are actually very variable. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Looking at the ARRL Antenna book it seems that the angle of radiation is
pretty well fixed on the type of antenna. "Ian White G3SEK" wrote in message ... Cecil Moore wrote: John wrote: Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues to how to work this out. Try the propagation chapter in the ARRL Antenna Book. That would be a very good introduction to modern software like W6ELPROP. What it teaches you is that angles of arrival vary considerably, even for one given path, for reasons ranging from time of day to time in the 11/22-year sunspot cycle. Remember that the F-layer is constantly changing height, especially if it's around around dawn and dusk at one of the reflection points. This means that at certain times the propagation has to 'flip' from say 3-hop-F to 4-hop-F, so the angle will flip too. And don't forget the E-layer, if that's there too. W6ELPROP will actually tell you what propagation modes are the most likely at various times of day... and the reality is *much* more complicated than the simple pictures shown in older books. The ARRL Antenna Book does rather assume that you can put up any antenna you can dream of; in which case, it will help you design the optimum system. Ideally, the antenna needs to be able to adapt to the needs of the moment. But for most of us, it's much simpler than that. We can never achieve the low angles that are sometimes needed for some of the most important paths, so it simply comes down to doing the best we can. "Adaptability" comes down to possibly having a second-choice antenna... which at certain times may turn out to be better. But even if we can't actually *do* anything about it, it's better at least to understand that arrival angles (or conversely, optimum launch angles) are actually very variable. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Mike Coombes wrote:
Looking at the ARRL Antenna book it seems that the angle of radiation is pretty well fixed on the type of antenna. Talking about "the" angle (as if there was only one) is misleading ourselves. Every antenna has a *range* of angles over which it radiates (or receives) the best. The aim is to make that coincide with the *range* of angles over which signals are likely to arrive. This is made very clear in the 18th edition of the Antenna Handbook onwards. It presents arrival angles as a statistical range of probabilities, over a spread of possible propagation conditions. If you have only one antenna, then obviously you try to make its very best radiation angle coincide with the most *likely* angle of arrival. But it's a game of chance. Occasionally the angle may be very different from the most likely value, so you have to accept that you're going to be some dB down... or dead in the water. And that is where having a choice of different antennas really scores. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
"John" wrote in message ...
Can someone tell me please an easy way to calculate the optimum angle of radiation from a transmitting antenna over a given path on the HF bands (160m - 10m)? OK, I guess its all to do with the height of the reflective layer in play and the distance of the QSO but I'd really appreciate some clues as to how to work this out. John, to get some more insight in this, I could suggest to take a look at http://elbert.its.bldrdoc.gov/pc_hf/hfwin32.html. I must admit however that it will require some learning-effort. If you found the angle of interest, you could then use any antenna modelling package to determine the antenna height needed for the frequency used. Or use HFTA for none-flat/sloping surfaces. Arie. |
"Reg Edwards" wrote The elevation angle of a radio wave is not related to antenna construction. It is calculated by trigonometry and is geometrically related to the distance between two points on the Earth's surface, the height of the ionospheric reflecting layers involved, and the number of hops. If a radio wave leaves the Earth at one end of the path and returns to Earth at the other end, then the elevation angles of the path taken are the same at both ends. And the same in the other direction. (To forestall nitpickers let it be said things can vary around averages.) The optimum angle at which to point a radio antenna, either for transmit or receive, is obviously the same as the elevation angle of the radio path. BUT NO AMOUNT OF WAVING THE ANTENNA ABOUT WILL AFFECT THE ELEVATION ANGLE OF THE RADIO PATH. For given points on the Earth's surface, height of reflecting layer, and number of hops, the angle of elevation of the radio path is fixed. The angle at which the radiation from an antenna is a maximum is an entirely different matter. Calculation of a path elevation angle on a curved Earth not very difficult but is a little too complicated to be written here. Up to 1500 groundpath miles the Earth can be considered to be flat. Trig calculation is then schoolkids stuff. Full formulae can be found in maths books under "Spherical Trigonometry" or in practical radio engineering books. Calculations can be interesting but are invariably roughly approximate because layer height involves guesswork. And by the time you've finished a calculation the height has shifted. Or the number of hops has changed from 2 to 3. The only things which remain static are your own latitude and longitude. To calculate propagation statistics of one and two hop radio paths, including elevation angles, download simple program TWOHOPS in a few seconds from website below and run immediately. ---- .................................................. ......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. ......... ========================================= Why should my answer to the question be altogether different to everybody else's? Especially as I'm right. --- Reg. |
hello Reg I've downloaded some of your programs.
very helpful, thank you very much. Were you a maths teacher or something like in a past life? Excellent programs, from Reg for free... http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp |
hello Reg I've downloaded some of your programs. very helpful, thank you very much. Were you a maths teacher or something like in a past life? Excellent programs, from Reg for free... http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ================================= Not having an Eastern religion I have no recollection of a past life. But the nearest I ever got to being a teacher in my present life was to teach myself after the age of 14. It all happened purely by chance. Although in the last few years of my career I did present, by invitation, some one-day lectures to international audiences on the subject of how to locate faults on oceanic submarine cables. And even in those far-off days, when the repair ship captain chose to go 1/4-speed ahead and grapple for the cable, depended on what he had had for breakfast. I understand cables now contain optical-fibers but still contain a few copper wires for fault location purposes. But submarine telephone cables were a small part of my career. However they did introduce me to transmission lines and communications in general. My first connection with radio began, indirectly, a few years earlier, during WW2, when I was a mechanical engineering apprentice in the tool-room and machine shop of a well-known electric-motor manufacturer. British-Thompson-Houston. At the age of 16, while high explosives and incendiary bombs were falling on the industrial City of Birmingam*, I set-up and operated precision lathes and millers and broaches and shapers to manufacture what appeared to me to be very small electric motors. (As distinct from anything up to 1000 horse-power motors and generators which was normal production.) Having joined the RAF in 1943 as a radar technician, in 1944, by chance, I came across these small electric motors once again. Actually, the articles I had helped to manufacture were top-secret selsyns to be used to synchronise airborne Radar plan-position indicating screens with their respective airborne, rotating parabolic antennas. The radar equipment was installed in Lancaster bombers, the most efficient of the RAF's killing machines. The fire storms on German cities, almost as good as the gas chambers, were more efficient than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki weapons of mass-destruction. It just took a few hours longer. The results of the latter weapons, in 1945, I witnessed and spoke to the few survivors while wearing my blue RAF uniform. There were no signs of animosity. The Japanese, an ancient educated and civilised people, were as polite to me as a sort of tourist, thousands of miles from my home in Birmingham (which they immediately recognised from a map sketched on the back of a cigarette packet) as they were to each other. My programs and Mathematics. There's very little advanced mathematics in my programs. My arithmetic is entirely self-taught. But there's no two ways about it - maths is either all right or all wrong. And either way it can eventually be proved. That's the beauty of it. University professors write books on it, plagiarise each other, and make a living under false pretences - but they add nothing except something illogical and misunderstood (usually a language problem) to haggle about in newsgroups. Same applies to radio. KISS. The key to my programs is a logical understanding of distributed electrical circuits. It's just elementary electrical engineering. If YOU can understand them then you are well away. If you can't understand them then its because I have been deficient in my introductory notes. Your comment on the 'excellence' of my programs is appreciated. But bear in mind, regarding quality, I have never claimed them to be numerically more accurate than needed for the purpose intended - whatever that may be. ============================== *On the same night as the infamous air raid on Coventry, a greater weight of bombs fell on the City of Birmingham and the industrial Black Country. Three days later fires were still burning in the adjacent town of West Bromwich. (These days West Bromwich is better noted for its football team.) But Coventry, the City of Three Spires, three cathedrals, and Lady Godiva, was the greatest concentration of war factories in the UK. Tanks, guns, aircraft engines, fire pumps, motor vehicles, communications equipment were all being made in the city, all intermingled with inflammable medieval buildings to be ravaged by fire in the raid. Most of the human casualties were due to a single bomb - a direct hit on an air-raid shelter. Incidentally, the 3000 MHz, 50 KW, Cavity Magnetron had just been invented by Randall and Boot in the Birmingham University laboratories which were themselves surrounded by large factories, under air attack, such as the well known Austin motor vehicle and the Aerial motorcycle works. The magnetron was used to guide Lancaster bomber crews to their unfortunate targets where 10's of thousands of the inhabitants were burned alive, their husbands and brothers dying on the Eastern Front against Russian rockets and T54 tanks. The magnetron was also used in the 5-year long Battle of the North Atlantic. On the average a 10,000-ton food and munitions ship was sunk every day. More than 100,000 merchant seamen, civilians, without military pensions for their families, lost their lives in Davy Jones locker. Towards the end of the war German submarine crews were on suicide missions. U-boat commanders, once detected by radar, had little option but to stay on the surface, uncover the guns, and fight it out. To submerge they were dead by depth charges. Their precise locations being located and remembered by airborne radar. These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? Tonight I'm on a Bordeaux Claret. Vive L'entente Cordiale. ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ |
Reg, G4FGQ wrote:
"The fire storms on German cities, almost as good as gas chambers, were more efficient than Hiroshima and Nagasaki weapons of mass-destruction." Just to quibble a bit, the atomic bomb was efficient for an explosive of its weight, equal to megatons of conventional explosives. My ship carried some of the first occupation forces into the Nagasaki area which I got to see. Our ship`s company armed ourselves and marched through town to see if it were safe to disgorge our soldiers there. Our captain outranked the army commander. The Japs were meek. They had suffered real stun and awe. Near ground zero about all that was left were fire-proof safes. News here this week included a story on a German memorial celebration of the 60th anniversary of the destruction of Dresden by a single American/British airaid which produced one of those firestorms with massive conventional explosives and incendiary devices. The Germans don`t want to forget it. The raid was of course OK as it was retribution for such destruction of English and other European cities. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
"Richard Harrison" wrote in message ... Just to quibble a bit, the atomic bomb was efficient for an explosive of its weight, equal to megatons of conventional explosives. To quibble a bit more, the "Little Boy" uranium atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima weighed about four to five tons and was the equivalent of about 10 to 15 kilotons of conventional (TNT) explosives. The "Fat Man" plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki had the equivalent of about 20 to 22 kilotons of conventional explosives. The variance in numbers is based on quotes from different sources. |
Graywolf wrote:
"To quibble a bit more, the "Little Boy" uranium atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima weighed about 4 or 5 tons and was the equivalent of about 10 to 15 hilotons of conventional (TNT) explosives." That`s about 3000 times more powerful. Sorry I exagerated in ignorance. Atomic bombs took destruction to a new level. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... "Reg Edwards" wrote The elevation angle of a radio wave is not related to antenna construction. It is calculated by trigonometry and is geometrically related to the distance between two points on the Earth's surface, the height of the ionospheric reflecting layers involved, and the number of hops. If a radio wave leaves the Earth at one end of the path and returns to Earth at the other end, then the elevation angles of the path taken are the same at both ends. And the same in the other direction. (To forestall nitpickers let it be said things can vary around averages.) Reg. You asre concentrating on things that you can do nothing about i.e.the ionisphere and trivialising the things that you CAN do something about which is TOA, the subject of this thread. If the transmitting station TOA is low enough to make the QSO in one hop and the receiving station antenna has a higher take off angle that requires exactly two hops to reply then the paths are NOT the same. I would also doubt that the paths taken when being bent by the reflecting layers would be the same as the density is subject to change .. The real discussion regarding TOA is to achieve a QSO with one hop instead of two so as to cut down on travel losses and that is where the importance of TOA and associated angles that follow the +/- 3 db takes place. Regardless of the physical position of the antenna the elevation angle of the radio wave IS related to antenna construction. Just a different view point Reg, the antenna I CAN do something about. Natures actions I can do NOTHING about except to have the correct equipment when good conditions occur and that is where TOA gains it importance. In my designs I try to have the lowest contour of the bottom lobe even tho it may mean a loss of a db in gain at the actual TOA.and I do not concern myself with the technical data that your posting revolves about, which tho it may be interesting to some, as I cannot change it Nothing personal nor am I nitpicking Cheers Art The optimum angle at which to point a radio antenna, either for transmit or receive, is obviously the same as the elevation angle of the radio path. BUT NO AMOUNT OF WAVING THE ANTENNA ABOUT WILL AFFECT THE ELEVATION ANGLE OF THE RADIO PATH. For given points on the Earth's surface, height of reflecting layer, and number of hops, the angle of elevation of the radio path is fixed. The angle at which the radiation from an antenna is a maximum is an entirely different matter. Calculation of a path elevation angle on a curved Earth not very difficult but is a little too complicated to be written here. Up to 1500 groundpath miles the Earth can be considered to be flat. Trig calculation is then schoolkids stuff. Full formulae can be found in maths books under "Spherical Trigonometry" or in practical radio engineering books. Calculations can be interesting but are invariably roughly approximate because layer height involves guesswork. And by the time you've finished a calculation the height has shifted. Or the number of hops has changed from 2 to 3. The only things which remain static are your own latitude and longitude. To calculate propagation statistics of one and two hop radio paths, including elevation angles, download simple program TWOHOPS in a few seconds from website below and run immediately. ---- .................................................. ......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. ......... ========================================= Why should my answer to the question be altogether different to everybody else's? Especially as I'm right. --- Reg. |
Aunwin, we are talking about two different things.
If I want to communicate (optimally) with another station it is important that I know the direction and elevation angle at which to point my antenna such that the radio beam preferentially returns to Earth in the vicinity of the other station. Direction is found from a map of the Earth's surface plus a magnetic compass. The ONLY way to find the elevation angle is to CALCULATE it from the ground path distance between the two stations, the height of the reflecting layer, and the number of hops along the path. It's purely a matter of Spherical Geometry. It has nothing to do with where your antenna happens to be pointing. Or even whether or not you have an antenna. All good radio engineers do it that way. Caculating formulae can be found in practical radio engineering books. Eznec won't tell you. Use simple program TWOHOPS to do common calculations. Results are as accurate as the inevitably uncertain input data. --- .................................................. .......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. .......... |
Reg, when I penned the thread beginnings I was trying to evoke
fresh thinking about the subject so as to challenge ideas that are spread by plagurism in a similar way that the ballon is shown to demonstrate how directivity /gain occurs. Ham radio operators are lead to believe that the height above ground of a beam's feed point determines the take off angle. It is true that it does have an effect on the TOA, say 75 percent, when other actions are taken to change the angle and 95 percent or so if no other actions are taken. Thus if actions are taken to lower the TOA one can take advantage of physical hops that were not available for a similar feed point height. This is why I returned to the thread to dispute the statement that you made regarding no amount of antenna waving can change the facts. Regards from another indentured apporentice from the school of Engineering and Navigation along side of the East India Docks which was attended by many from the cable company further down the river Art Edwards" wrote in message ... "Reg Edwards" wrote The elevation angle of a radio wave is not related to antenna construction. snip BUT NO AMOUNT OF WAVING THE ANTENNA ABOUT WILL AFFECT THE ELEVATION ANGLE OF THE RADIO PATH. snip. ---- .................................................. ......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. ......... ========================================= Why should my answer to the question be altogether different to everybody else's? Especially as I'm right. \ Possibly because you were addressing a different question --- Reg. |
Reg, G4FGQ wrote:
"It`s purely a matter of Spherical Geometry" Edmund A. Laport agrees with Reg in his book "Radio Antenna Engineering". On page 227 Ed writes: "If, for example, the computed vertical beam angle for a one-hop circuit uses 6 degrees at an azimuth of 332 degrees and the horizon in this direction consisted of a mountain range with a height of 8 degrees, the performance of the circuit would be greatly compromised by the obstruction of the mountains. In such a case it might be better to work this circuit with two hops. Then a vertical beam angle of 20 degrees can be used instead, with adequate horizon clearance for the wave path. Or if the circuit required 6 degrees for a two-hop circuit 5400 kilometers long, with the same obstruction cited, one could change to a three-hop circuit which for the same layer height would permit the use of a beam at 14 degrees." Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
"Richard Harrison" wrote in message ... Reg, G4FGQ wrote: "It`s purely a matter of Spherical Geometry" Edmund A. Laport agrees with Reg in his book "Radio Antenna Engineering". On page 227 Ed writes: "If, for example, the computed vertical beam angle for a one-hop circuit uses 6 degrees at an azimuth of 332 degrees and the horizon in this direction consisted of a mountain range with a height of 8 degrees, the performance of the circuit would be greatly compromised by the obstruction of the mountains. In such a case it might be better to work this circuit with two hops. Then a vertical beam angle of 20 degrees can be used instead, with adequate horizon clearance for the wave path. Or if the circuit required 6 degrees for a two-hop circuit 5400 kilometers long, with the same obstruction cited, one could change to a three-hop circuit which for the same layer height would permit the use of a beam at 14 degrees." Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI OR ....... you take advantage of diffraction abilities of physical parts such as mountain edges or other physical parts that can deflect the rays AFTER it leaves the FEED POINT which does NOT exclude an antenna array of which the feed point is part. The point of confusion emanates from.calculating hop distance on the basis of a :"standard:". TOA The "magic" of a stacked antenna exposes the difference :that occurs with a different TOA. I suppose you could use Reg's program so that when the ideal conditions do occur maybe after several hours of waiting , when one can say that the upper layers are now exactly such or such a height and the assumption used in formulating the program are now correct. The fact is that ham radio is about formulating an array that will provide the hop distance required by the operator since that is something he can change. I am quite sure that LaPorte does NOT say that no amount of shaking an antenna can change the hop distance which is what TOA is all about and the subject of this thread. Maybe we need another thread to clarify the question that Reg and yourself are apparently addressing. Art |
"Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia |
Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not
insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia |
Hello Art,
I've been to London, and I never heard lunatics advocating the violent destruction of all things related to the "West" as we know it. But then I stayed out of Mosques, too. The reference to the city gates was anecdotal only. The 40% was a figure given to me by a London couple I met last week, when I quoted 30% muslim population living in London, apparently an old figure. This particular British couple I met happen to approve of both President George Bush and our mutual (countries) efforts to eradicate radical muslim actors. They also have a soldier-son in Kuwait so perhaps they are privy to information we are not. We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Wise up and stop defending that which is focused on your own destruction. It has nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with survival. I don't mince words, and genocide is exactly what it will take to survive the onslaught of islam. Education may prevent it from reaching the level of insanity it presently enjoys. It enjoys this status largely due to the tolerance of fools who think their elected legislators represent them. Perhaps Reg remembers when Chamberlain lied to his countrymen, waiving the "peace is at hand" (paraphrased, Art) toilet paper that Nazi Germany gave him. Saying that Islam is a "peaceful religion" is the same rubbish. Regards, Jack " wrote Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia |
Art Unwin wrote:
"---go to Hyde Park Corner on Sunday---" I did and though it had been 50 years since I last listened, I hadn`t missed a thing. The soap box orators were saying the same things about the same topics. There are still "Troubles" with Ireland. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
Art Unwin wrote:
"Jack, who are the lunatics?" The suicide bombers are lunatics. Self preservation and survival are natural instincts. When you don`t love life, you`re nuts! I saw a U.S. Marine in Baghdad on TV yesterday who said he wasn`t keen on dying for his country but he wanted to live to fight for his country. He has it right and that marine is apparently completely sane. Several crusades have been launched from Europe against Islam. Most were failures. Bush mis-spoke when once calling his Iraq incursion a "crusade". The war has unified Islam against the U.S.A. But, the whole Ialamic world has not declared war on the U.S.A. and it won`t. The Iraq war must be won and the Iraqis must be pacified whatever it takes. The U.S., U.K. and their allies shall prevail. Why they haven`t hired soldiers of fortune to imflict on Iraq is a mystery to me. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
Jack Painter wrote:
"Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia Religious fanatics of every stripe are dangerous, whether they be Christian, Hindu, Moslem or anything else. So, too, are political fanatics. The West has plenty of both. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Jack Painter wrote:
Hello Art, I've been to London, and I never heard lunatics advocating the violent destruction of all things related to the "West" as we know it. But then I stayed out of Mosques, too. The reference to the city gates was anecdotal only. The 40% was a figure given to me by a London couple I met last week, when I quoted 30% muslim population living in London, apparently an old figure. This particular British couple I met happen to approve of both President George Bush and our mutual (countries) efforts to eradicate radical muslim actors. They also have a soldier-son in Kuwait so perhaps they are privy to information we are not. We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Wise up and stop defending that which is focused on your own destruction. It has nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with survival. I don't mince words, and genocide is exactly what it will take to survive the onslaught of islam. Education may prevent it from reaching the level of insanity it presently enjoys. It enjoys this status largely due to the tolerance of fools who think their elected legislators represent them. Perhaps Reg remembers when Chamberlain lied to his countrymen, waiving the "peace is at hand" (paraphrased, Art) toilet paper that Nazi Germany gave him. Saying that Islam is a "peaceful religion" is the same rubbish. Regards, Jack " wrote Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia Islam can be a beautiful, satisfying religion, or it can not. Like some of the gutter Christian sects infesting America there are people who profess a belief in God who would use that belief as an excuse for killing innocent people. People who preach genocide are low, anti-social, dangerous, and a danger to society and should be locked up to keep them from doing harm. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Aunwin, it is indeed reassuring to hear from a USA citizen, a voter, who can
distinguish between the weapons of mass-destruction possessed and EXTREMELY EXTENSIVLY USED by the USA during the last 60 years on the towns, cities, rice fields and jungles of innumerable countries of this small Earth of ours, as distinct from civilised Briitish Gun Laws and the mixed-up religious population proportions of this still-free country. Some people need to be reminded there has NOT YET been a single so-called terrorist attack on the UK by anybody except, for many years, by the Irish Republican Army, which is but one of the many disruptive international organisations financed by the CIA and, via USA taxpayers, the USA government. But, as the USA government quite openly states, all is being done in the very well-worth-while interests of USA citizens. Who can blame them? They are only ordinary human beings after all. To them, including USA drug-addicted soldiers, their lives are considerably more important than the remaining five billions of humanity who are doing their best against Aids, Earth warming, chicken flue virus, earthquakes, floods, starvation by the tens of millions, and shortages of clean water. Solution - bring the International Energy Corporations under control. It must now be assumed I am on the master list of the CIA's Dirty Tricks Dept computer and liable to disappear from circulation at any time. And, to return to topic, to keep yourself sane, get yourself a free program. ---- .................................................. .......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. .......... |
"Tom Donaly" wrote Jack Painter wrote: Hello Art, I've been to London, and I never heard lunatics advocating the violent destruction of all things related to the "West" as we know it. But then I stayed out of Mosques, too. The reference to the city gates was anecdotal only. The 40% was a figure given to me by a London couple I met last week, when I quoted 30% muslim population living in London, apparently an old figure. This particular British couple I met happen to approve of both President George Bush and our mutual (countries) efforts to eradicate radical muslim actors. They also have a soldier-son in Kuwait so perhaps they are privy to information we are not. We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Wise up and stop defending that which is focused on your own destruction. It has nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with survival. I don't mince words, and genocide is exactly what it will take to survive the onslaught of islam. Education may prevent it from reaching the level of insanity it presently enjoys. It enjoys this status largely due to the tolerance of fools who think their elected legislators represent them. Perhaps Reg remembers when Chamberlain lied to his countrymen, waiving the "peace is at hand" (paraphrased, Art) toilet paper that Nazi Germany gave him. Saying that Islam is a "peaceful religion" is the same rubbish. Regards, Jack " wrote Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia Islam can be a beautiful, satisfying religion, or it can not. Like some of the gutter Christian sects infesting America there are people who profess a belief in God who would use that belief as an excuse for killing innocent people. People who preach genocide are low, anti-social, dangerous, and a danger to society and should be locked up to keep them from doing harm. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH then Tom added: Religious fanatics of every stripe are dangerous, whether they be Christian, Hindu, Moslem or anything else. So, too, are political fanatics. The West has plenty of both. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Well Tom, fortunately for you, there are rough men ready to fight in the middle of the night on the other side of the world, in order that you can sleep in your bed free from fear. As to your thinking that I should be locked up, I nonetheless defend your right to be a useless twit, unable to stand for anything, and able to make dribble about righteousness without a defining origin of those thoughts. Everything is o.k. with you, except things that suck. Someone should take care of that stuff for you, so you don't have to worry too much about it. Gotcha. Oh and Tom, we'll be watching for those zealous Christian sects infesting America, watching for the first sign of their *suicide bombings*. In the meantime, maybe you can point to some evidence of Christians doing that anywhere in the world, ever. Jack |
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... snip And, to return to topic, to keep yourself sane, get yourself a free program. ---- Yes, returning to the subject of TOA the antenna I am working with has a natural TOA of 10 degrees instead of 14 degrees with the feed point at 65 feet ( for 20 meters. tho it can also be used on other bands) If the antenna is tipped up to angles beyond 15 degrees the TOA increases until it goes straight up.Thus the antenna can choose the correct angle for a particular QSO or hops even if the wind is not "waving the antenna about"! Grin At present I am searching for a way to DECREASE its natural TOA.by way of a 2M antenna project and if succesful will dispatch it to the RSGB for comment. Regards Art .................................................. ......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. ......... |
Reg Edwards wrote:
Aunwin, it is indeed reassuring to hear from a USA citizen, a voter, who can distinguish between the weapons of mass-destruction possessed and EXTREMELY EXTENSIVLY USED by the USA during the last 60 years on the towns, cities, rice fields and jungles of innumerable countries of this small Earth of ours, as distinct from civilised Briitish Gun Laws and the mixed-up religious population proportions of this still-free country. Some people need to be reminded there has NOT YET been a single so-called terrorist attack on the UK by anybody except, for many years, by the Irish Republican Army, which is but one of the many disruptive international organisations financed by the CIA and, via USA taxpayers, the USA government. But, as the USA government quite openly states, all is being done in the very well-worth-while interests of USA citizens. Who can blame them? They are only ordinary human beings after all. To them, including USA drug-addicted soldiers, their lives are considerably more important than the remaining five billions of humanity who are doing their best against Aids, Earth warming, chicken flue virus, earthquakes, floods, starvation by the tens of millions, and shortages of clean water. Solution - bring the International Energy Corporations under control. It must now be assumed I am on the master list of the CIA's Dirty Tricks Dept computer and liable to disappear from circulation at any time. And, to return to topic, to keep yourself sane, get yourself a free program. ---- .................................................. ......... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp .................................................. ......... Unmitigated hypocrisy. The British have no business sticking their noses in the air over our behavior in Iraq. An example: there have been two men who have been responsible for using poison gas against civilians in that country. One of them is the infamous Saddam. The other is the great British war hero "Bomber" Harris, who, like Adolph Hitler, believed you could win wars simply by slaughtering innocent people. Stick your nose in a history book, Reg, and you might be able to cure yourself of the habit of making these asinine posts. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Tom Donaly wrote:
Islam can be a beautiful, satisfying religion, or it can not. Like some of the gutter Christian sects infesting America there are people who profess a belief in God who would use that belief as an excuse for killing innocent people. The Judeo-Christian Bible advocates stoning adulterers to death. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:47:44 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote: ============================== *On the same night as the infamous air raid on Coventry, a greater weight of bombs fell on the City of Birmingham and the industrial Black Country. Three days later fires were still burning in the adjacent town of West Bromwich. (These days West Bromwich is better noted for its football team.) BIG SNIP I'd say that from here on, the angle of radiation has shifted from antennas to politics -- as evidenced by the replies to this branch of the threads. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW |
Jack Painter wrote:
"Tom Donaly" wrote Jack Painter wrote: Hello Art, I've been to London, and I never heard lunatics advocating the violent destruction of all things related to the "West" as we know it. But then I stayed out of Mosques, too. The reference to the city gates was anecdotal only. The 40% was a figure given to me by a London couple I met last week, when I quoted 30% muslim population living in London, apparently an old figure. This particular British couple I met happen to approve of both President George Bush and our mutual (countries) efforts to eradicate radical muslim actors. They also have a soldier-son in Kuwait so perhaps they are privy to information we are not. We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Wise up and stop defending that which is focused on your own destruction. It has nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with survival. I don't mince words, and genocide is exactly what it will take to survive the onslaught of islam. Education may prevent it from reaching the level of insanity it presently enjoys. It enjoys this status largely due to the tolerance of fools who think their elected legislators represent them. Perhaps Reg remembers when Chamberlain lied to his countrymen, waiving the "peace is at hand" (paraphrased, Art) toilet paper that Nazi Germany gave him. Saying that Islam is a "peaceful religion" is the same rubbish. Regards, Jack " wrote Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia Islam can be a beautiful, satisfying religion, or it can not. Like some of the gutter Christian sects infesting America there are people who profess a belief in God who would use that belief as an excuse for killing innocent people. People who preach genocide are low, anti-social, dangerous, and a danger to society and should be locked up to keep them from doing harm. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH then Tom added: Religious fanatics of every stripe are dangerous, whether they be Christian, Hindu, Moslem or anything else. So, too, are political fanatics. The West has plenty of both. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Well Tom, fortunately for you, there are rough men ready to fight in the middle of the night on the other side of the world, in order that you can sleep in your bed free from fear. As to your thinking that I should be locked up, I nonetheless defend your right to be a useless twit, unable to stand for anything, and able to make dribble about righteousness without a defining origin of those thoughts. Everything is o.k. with you, except things that suck. Someone should take care of that stuff for you, so you don't have to worry too much about it. Gotcha. Oh and Tom, we'll be watching for those zealous Christian sects infesting America, watching for the first sign of their *suicide bombings*. In the meantime, maybe you can point to some evidence of Christians doing that anywhere in the world, ever. Jack Many atrocities have been committed over the years in the name of Christ. That doesn't meant that Christianity is bad, but that there have been people willing to use it as an excuse for slaughter, as you do. Face it, Painter, when you advocate genocide, you're no better than the Islamic fanatics in Saudi Arabia calling for the annihilation of the infidels, or the racialist bigots of Nazi Germany screaming for the elimination of the Jews. Moreover, you should get something through your thick, Southern skull before you and people like you do something stupid: there are Islamic countries that possess nuclear capabilities. You're not going to be able to murder the people of those countries without getting something back in return. You need to calm down and quit watching those hick preachers on T.V. on Sunday. Maybe you should get out of your easy chair and go to a real Christian church and learn some real Christianity before you shoot off your mouth on this newsgroup and make a fool of yourself like Reg. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Jack Painter wrote:
In the meantime, maybe you can point to some evidence of Christians doing that anywhere in the world, ever. How do you feel about the sacking of Constanople? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Tom, remember mustard gas used in the first world war?
Terrible stuff to use yet the largest stockpile in the world of that terrible stuff is held in mid U.S., for what reason I do not know, Do you? Regarding Commander Harris, are you saying that he took a squadron to Iraq and sprayed poison gas? Art "Tom Donaly" wrote in message ... Reg Edwards wrote: snip......................................... Unmitigated hypocrisy. The British have no business sticking their noses in the air over our behavior in Iraq. An example: there have been two men who have been responsible for using poison gas against civilians in that country. One of them is the infamous Saddam. The other is the great British war hero "Bomber" Harris, who, like Adolph Hitler, believed you could win wars simply by slaughtering innocent people. Stick your nose in a history book, Reg, and you might be able to cure yourself of the habit of making these asinine posts. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
"Tom Donaly" wrote Jack Painter wrote: "Tom Donaly" wrote Jack Painter wrote: Hello Art, I've been to London, and I never heard lunatics advocating the violent destruction of all things related to the "West" as we know it. But then I stayed out of Mosques, too. The reference to the city gates was anecdotal only. The 40% was a figure given to me by a London couple I met last week, when I quoted 30% muslim population living in London, apparently an old figure. This particular British couple I met happen to approve of both President George Bush and our mutual (countries) efforts to eradicate radical muslim actors. They also have a soldier-son in Kuwait so perhaps they are privy to information we are not. We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Wise up and stop defending that which is focused on your own destruction. It has nothing to do with free speech. It has everything to do with survival. I don't mince words, and genocide is exactly what it will take to survive the onslaught of islam. Education may prevent it from reaching the level of insanity it presently enjoys. It enjoys this status largely due to the tolerance of fools who think their elected legislators represent them. Perhaps Reg remembers when Chamberlain lied to his countrymen, waiving the "peace is at hand" (paraphrased, Art) toilet paper that Nazi Germany gave him. Saying that Islam is a "peaceful religion" is the same rubbish. Regards, Jack " wrote Jack, who are the lunatics? To have faith in your religeon or beliefs is not insane, We have christians who have faith in religeon and beliefs. In war many have given up their lives to save others and we have in fact declared war against a religeon., Regarding Londoners having their own form of sanity, go to Hyde Park corner on a sunday and hear the free speech that is the right of all even if you may disagree with it.. Regarding the gates of London of which there are eight which surround one square mile if you say that 40,000 dwell inside those gates then many must be squatters inside the palace walls. Reg is speaking as a European where the main threat of war in the world is seen to come from the Middle East with the help of the U.S. Why else would we deliver 50 of our most sophisticated deep concrete bunker smart bombs? Surely not for destruction of tents and shacks but more probably to penetrate heavily concrete nuclear energy stations like their own. I believe Reg is sincere and correct in asking the USA from the other side of the pond regarding what we do in the Middle East. WHY? As far as banning guns, I do believe they ban hand grenades and a plethoria of other weapons that can only be used to kill people. It is a democratic country and it is the peoples will, why are you concerned about it?. If there are many close by to you who have the same beliefs as you regarding genocide you may have to coinsider whether you want to kill or be considered to be one endangered by the killing. Your religion may well be different to your immediate population Regards Art "Jack Painter" wrote in message news:MfqRd.47386$EG1.7785@lakeread04... "Reg Edwards" wrote These days we have other forms of suicide. There are people who are living such enforced miserable lives and in such oppressed conditions they prefer to sacrifice their own lives in the hope of improving the future lives of their families and their decendents. Citizens of the United States, and others, ask yourselves WHY? ---- Reg, Amateur Radio, G4FGQ Reg, The alleged conditions you describe are not found in the people who do this, and if it were present would still have zero bearing on the cause of these lunatic suicides. Fractional existence and/or slavery may be found all over the globe and was rarely ever a cause of such insanity. Only the influence of Islam allows such departure from humanity and any hope of a better life here on earth. Islam executes this insane belief not only on others, but on themselves. A combination of education and eradication (genocide) may be applied as needed to calm this insanity. Londoners have their own form of insanity, that of banning guns from law abiding citizens whilst encouraging Muslim Mosques to add to the near 40% Muslim population who preach for the destruction of the West from inside the London city gates. Regards, Jack Painter Virginia Beach, Virginia Islam can be a beautiful, satisfying religion, or it can not. Like some of the gutter Christian sects infesting America there are people who profess a belief in God who would use that belief as an excuse for killing innocent people. People who preach genocide are low, anti-social, dangerous, and a danger to society and should be locked up to keep them from doing harm. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH then Tom added: Religious fanatics of every stripe are dangerous, whether they be Christian, Hindu, Moslem or anything else. So, too, are political fanatics. The West has plenty of both. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Well Tom, fortunately for you, there are rough men ready to fight in the middle of the night on the other side of the world, in order that you can sleep in your bed free from fear. As to your thinking that I should be locked up, I nonetheless defend your right to be a useless twit, unable to stand for anything, and able to make dribble about righteousness without a defining origin of those thoughts. Everything is o.k. with you, except things that suck. Someone should take care of that stuff for you, so you don't have to worry too much about it. Gotcha. Oh and Tom, we'll be watching for those zealous Christian sects infesting America, watching for the first sign of their *suicide bombings*. In the meantime, maybe you can point to some evidence of Christians doing that anywhere in the world, ever. Jack Many atrocities have been committed over the years in the name of Christ. That doesn't meant that Christianity is bad, but that there have been people willing to use it as an excuse for slaughter, as you do. Face it, Painter, when you advocate genocide, you're no better than the Islamic fanatics in Saudi Arabia calling for the annihilation of the infidels, or the racialist bigots of Nazi Germany screaming for the elimination of the Jews. Moreover, you should get something through your thick, Southern skull before you and people like you do something stupid: there are Islamic countries that possess nuclear capabilities. You're not going to be able to murder the people of those countries without getting something back in return. You need to calm down and quit watching those hick preachers on T.V. on Sunday. Maybe you should get out of your easy chair and go to a real Christian church and learn some real Christianity before you shoot off your mouth on this newsgroup and make a fool of yourself like Reg. Tom Donaly, KA6RUH I never made the argument that Christians should rise up against Islam, you did. You're as fond of attacking Christians as anything else you don't understand, but we could leave that out of the discussion easily, as it just gets you more confused and doesn't answer the problem that I stated, which was: We have not declared war on the nation of islam, but we should, because they have long ago declared war on the west and all of our tenets of free religion, free economies and forms of self-government. Read that to yourself a few times, Tom. I may have a big mouth, but I will not apologize for the beliefs and fundamentals that made western life the best the world has ever known. It is also the only system of beliefs that sacrifices our sons and daughters to free others from tyranny, and to educate and promote free trade that allows employment of all in an honest living. That saps like you will argue everything Americans say or do is more evidence that we are truly a divided country. But what divides us in not what the muslims want to kill us for, and you are too much of an ass to see that you will be as dead a sap-sucker as I will be a patriot, unless we agree on the definition of islam as evil. That has nothing whatsoever to do with christianity or any other religion. It is reality. Other places your stereotype darts landed were also wrong; I grew up in the north-east, have a bachelor of science from a northern school (minor in poli-sci), and was also educated in West Germany where I was an exchange student for a year. I traveled all over europe then and many times later, not counting my service as a launch operations supervisor aboard a ballistic missile sub, forward deployed in scotland. I'm well aware of the atrocities of nazi germany, and its another mark of your ignorance that you could assume you know what my education and experience was there. Want to teach me some more about who has nuclear weapons next? My "thick southern skull" is so ripe for your vast knowledge of tripe, tom. Islam and its muslim cronies that have been the cause of crusades in the past and are causing history to repeat itself now. I never heard any tv preacher say that, it's as obvious as the day is light. Maybe you folks in california just don't appreciate what it felt like to have one plane load of muslim suicide-bombers fly over you and then crash in your state, and have another one headed for the same place, fall a little short. Or hear about how two of the same bombers were in your city for two weeks scoping out weak points in your seaport and military installations. But virginians do remember that it was the city council of berkley california that made several demands to the u.s. government to stop bombing japan even as we were losing thousands of young marines and sailors every week to push the japanee out of the occupied territories of the pacific. Good thing I don't believe in stereotypes like you do, or else you and most of your state would be given one-way tickets out. Jack |
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... Jack Painter wrote: In the meantime, maybe you can point to some evidence of Christians doing that anywhere in the world, ever. How do you feel about the sacking of Constanople? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Hi Cecil, "the sacking"? 1204 or 1453? Pretty ruthless, but don't recall the christian defenders using suicide bomber tactics, then or ever. I'll take Richard's story of that young marine's comments (was it an adaptation of remarks from the movie "Patton"?) about not being keen to die for his country, but looking forward to fighting for it (making the other guy die for his country). Jack |
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