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#1
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mountains reflect signal anyway?
The setting: city to the west, mountains to the east. For 2 meter
transmissions, should one feel bad that half the coverage area of ones vertical antenna is wasted on unpopulated mountains, or might the mountains reflect most of the signal anyway, especially if right east of us is an idealized vertical mountain wall? Thus no hurry to upgrade to a yagi? |
#2
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:39:50 +0800, Dan Jacobson
wrote: The setting: city to the west, mountains to the east. For 2 meter transmissions, should one feel bad that half the coverage area of ones vertical antenna is wasted on unpopulated mountains, or might the mountains reflect most of the signal anyway, especially if right east of us is an idealized vertical mountain wall? Thus no hurry to upgrade to a yagi? Hi Dan, That's how it works here in Seattle for some. We have a lot of hills that hide repeater antennas. We also have a lot of mountains that reflect them (even from the opposite angle). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#3
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The setting: city to the west, mountains to the east. For 2 meter
transmissions, should one feel bad that half the coverage area of ones vertical antenna is wasted on unpopulated mountains, or might the mountains reflect most of the signal anyway, especially if right east of us is an idealized vertical mountain wall? Thus no hurry to upgrade to a yagi? My guess - the mountains reflect some of the signal, but in a rather unpredictable manner and with much of the energy being reflected upwards. The mountain reflections might help fill in a few gaps in your coverage pattern. However, the reflections are likely to _hurt_ coverage in some areas, due to multipath interference with the direct (non-reflected) signal. You might find that your signal suffers from a greater amount of picket-fencing due to multipath, than it would if the mountains were not present or if the antenna's pattern didn't include the mountains. The more vertical (and the more reflective) the mountain wall is, the stronger the reflections, and perhaps the more pronounced the picket-fencing. It might well be worth your while to experiment with a simple somewhat-directional antenna. A single reflector, located perhaps .1 to .2 wavelengths on the mountainside side (sorry :-) of your current vertical, cut to perhaps 5% longer than a half-wavelength, could be used to shape your antenna's pattern into something vaguely cardioid. This would send your transmit energy (and your receive sensitivity) where it will do you the most good. Play around with the antenna-to- reflector spacing and see what it does to your pattern. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#4
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D It might well be worth your while to experiment with a simple
D somewhat-directional antenna. A single reflector, located perhaps D .1 to .2 wavelengths on the mountainside side (sorry :-) of your D current vertical, cut to perhaps 5% longer than a half-wavelength, D could be used to shape your antenna's pattern into something D vaguely cardioid. Yes! Say, can one just cut the reflector 5% longer than the antenna? The antenna is some complex double 5/8 wavelength job. If the reflector is shorter than the antenna, it becomes a director? What if the reflector is just a pole jabbed into the ground, thus grounded and longer downwards than the 5%? What if the pole is "very much longer than the antenna in both directions"? How about the thickness of the reflector? Only as thick as the antenna itself (but wait, the antenna has two thicknesses, top thin, bottom thick), or just grab any iron pipe (wait, metal type and shape important?) |
#5
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In article ,
Dan Jacobson wrote: D It might well be worth your while to experiment with a simple D somewhat-directional antenna. A single reflector, located perhaps D .1 to .2 wavelengths on the mountainside side (sorry :-) of your D current vertical, cut to perhaps 5% longer than a half-wavelength, D could be used to shape your antenna's pattern into something D vaguely cardioid. Yes! Say, can one just cut the reflector 5% longer than the antenna? The antenna is some complex double 5/8 wavelength job. If the reflector is shorter than the antenna, it becomes a director? What if the reflector is just a pole jabbed into the ground, thus grounded and longer downwards than the 5%? What if the pole is "very much longer than the antenna in both directions"? How about the thickness of the reflector? Only as thick as the antenna itself (but wait, the antenna has two thicknesses, top thin, bottom thick), or just grab any iron pipe (wait, metal type and shape important?) Well, I think you'd probably need to do a bunch of modelling in NEC2 or similar to get a really solid analysis, for any given antenna and reflector. The "5% longer" rule of thumb applies to antennas which use halfwave radiators - it works with Yagis, and Cebik has an analysis which indicates that it works with Yagi-like beams based on vertical J-poles. I suspect that the issue is rather more complicated for antennas which use 5/8-wave or stacked/collinear radiators. The phase relationships between driven and parasitic elements in such antennas are probably different enough that this simple rule might not apply. I believe that you could probably get a fairly effective pattern-warping by using a non-tuned reflector which is significantly longer than your collinear radiator. Try cutting a piece of EMT or other conduit (or aluminum pole, or whatever) so that it's a few feet longer than your antenna, and then install it 6" to a foot on the undesired side of the radiator... have one end of it sticking up at least a foot above the top of the radiator and the other extending down below the bottom of the radiator. Some commercial multi-bay stacked dipole antennas use the mast or tower in just this fashion, to convert a circular omni pattern into a cardioid or off-center near-circular pattern. Varying the antenna-to- mast/tower spacing changes the shape of the pattern. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#6
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Dave Platt wrote:
I believe that you could probably get a fairly effective pattern-warping by using a non-tuned reflector which is significantly longer than your collinear radiator. Passive non-resonant elements have very little effect. That's what allows a lot of multi-band beams to work. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#7
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"Cecil Moore" wrote
Dave Platt wrote: I believe that you could probably get a fairly effective pattern-warping by using a non-tuned reflector which is significantly longer than your collinear radiator. Passive non-resonant elements have very little effect. That's what allows a lot of multi-band beams to work. _____________ As a point of reference, the radiation patterns of sidemounted FM broadcast transmit arrays are affected by a non-resonant mounting structure (the tower) -- especially for vertical polarization. Measured patterns from the manufacturer's test ranges demonstrate this, as do the NEC-2 studies in several of the papers on http://rfry.org . RF |
#8
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Richard Fry wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote Passive non-resonant elements have very little effect. That's what allows a lot of multi-band beams to work. As a point of reference, the radiation patterns of sidemounted FM broadcast transmit arrays are affected by a non-resonant mounting structure (the tower) -- especially for vertical polarization. True, and please note that I was talking about *antenna elements* not support structures. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#9
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I believe that you could probably get a fairly effective
pattern-warping by using a non-tuned reflector which is significantly longer than your collinear radiator. Passive non-resonant elements have very little effect. That's what allows a lot of multi-band beams to work. As a point of reference, the radiation patterns of sidemounted FM broadcast transmit arrays are affected by a non-resonant mounting structure (the tower) -- especially for vertical polarization. Measured patterns from the manufacturer's test ranges demonstrate this, as do the NEC-2 studies in several of the papers on http://rfry.org . Check... that's just the sort of situation I was thinking of. The effect on the pattern isn't all that strong, though... only a few dB. As one example, the old ARRL VHF book gives the plans for a four-bay stacked dipole antenna system. With the dipoles placed on four sides of the mast, the antenna system has a gain of about 6 dB (they don't say dBi or dBd but I assume it must be the latter). With all four dipoles on the same side of the mast, the pattern is said to be a cardioid of about 9 dB gain. They don't say how deep the back-side null is. The cardioid pattern might have a high enough F/B ratio to help with the original poster's situation (mountain-side reflection), or he might need to use a tuned reflector of the 5%-longer-than-resonant variety to get a more directional pattern. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#10
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Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Passive non-resonant elements have very little effect." True in a parasitic array such as a Yagi. In some antenna arrays all the elements are fed by a transmission line. Directional arrays are also made by using elements which are not connected to a transmission line. These disconnected elements have current induced into them by the driven element and are called parasitic elements. The effect of a parasitic element depends on the magnitude and phase of the current flowing in it. To get substantial current, the element must be near the driven element or other element carrying large current, and it must be almost resonant. A non-resonant element has a large reactance limiting its current flow and effectiveness. A resonant length for a conductor in space is 1/2-wavelength. A resonant length for a grounded conductor is 1/4-wavelength. The 3-element Yagi is a common parasitic antenna. It has a driven element, a reflector element, and a director element. The length of all three elements is nearly 1/2-wavelength in most cases. To get large currents, near-resonance is essential. The trick is to get the radiation from all elements to reinforce in the desired direction and cancel in other directions. Phase of current in the reflector is often delayed by making it slightly longer than a 1/2-wavelength. Phase of current in the director is often slightly advanced by making it slightly shorter than a 1/2-wavelength. Spacing between elements is close to get a large excitation of the parasitic elements. This makes a compact antenna. Close spacing means mutual impedance (coupling) between the elements, and this affects the drivepoint impedance. Close spacing increases directive gain but lowers the array`s radiation resistance. See Terman`s Fig 23-36 on page 904 of his 1955 "Electronic and Radio Engineering". Large non-resonant reflectors are also used. Backward radiation can be eliminated with a plane conducting sheet. It`s impenetrable and must reflect. The earth often acts as such a reflector. The parasitic 1/2-wave reflector is a "degenerated" (Kraus` word) case of the plane reflector. I recall that either Kraus or Terman suggested that the best way to handle non-resonant reflectors was on an image basis. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
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