Roy Lewallen wrote:
Tell us, Cecil, at steady state at one frequency, can a lumped inductor
(presumably like the experimenter's toroid) tell whether it's at the
base of an antenna or simply in series between a generator and load
impedance?

This question proves you don't understand the problem. The inductor
cannot tell if it is installed in an antenna or transmission line.

So I will turn the question around: Does a standing wave antenna
have standing waves? Reference _Antenna_Theory- by Balanis, page 17,
section 1.4 Current Distrubution on a Thin Wire Antenna. Is Balanis
correct when he says: "If the diameter of each wire is very small,
the ideal standing wave pattern of the current along the arms of
the (1/2WL) dipole is sinusoidal with a null at the end."

This is after he takes an unterminated transmission line, discusses
standing waves, and then slowly opens up the ends of the transmission
line to create a 1/2WL dipole.

I took Balanis' antenna course at ASU in 1995. I asked a lot of
questions about inductively loaded antennas. The current and
standing wave pattern on each side of a loading coil is NOT the same.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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So, was that a yes or a no? I have trouble with your accent.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

Tell us, Cecil, at steady state at one frequency, can a lumped
inductor (presumably like the experimenter's toroid) tell whether it's
at the base of an antenna or simply in series between a generator and
load impedance?


This question proves you don't understand the problem. The inductor
cannot tell if it is installed in an antenna or transmission line.

So I will turn the question around: Does a standing wave antenna
have standing waves? Reference _Antenna_Theory- by Balanis, page 17,
section 1.4 Current Distrubution on a Thin Wire Antenna. Is Balanis
correct when he says: "If the diameter of each wire is very small,
the ideal standing wave pattern of the current along the arms of
the (1/2WL) dipole is sinusoidal with a null at the end."

This is after he takes an unterminated transmission line, discusses
standing waves, and then slowly opens up the ends of the transmission
line to create a 1/2WL dipole.

I took Balanis' antenna course at ASU in 1995. I asked a lot of
questions about inductively loaded antennas. The current and
standing wave pattern on each side of a loading coil is NOT the same.

Roy Lewallen wrote:

So, was that a yes or a no? I have trouble with your accent.

It's a no. Lumped inductors are not conscious of anything
including their locations.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Good. And I see from your other response that you understand the question.

So now we have a simple series circuit consisting of a generator, the
loading inductor, and the R + L or C we used to substitute for the
antenna. And your "no" response indicates you've agreed that the voltage
across and current through the inductor are the same as when it was
connected to the antenna.

Now, choose any values you'd like for the generator voltage or current
and the component values, and write the equations showing that the
current into the inductor is different in any way (amplitude or phase)
from the current going out. Or, if that's too taxing, I'll choose some
values for you.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

So, was that a yes or a no? I have trouble with your accent.


It's a no. Lumped inductors are not conscious of anything
including their locations.

Roy Lewallen wrote:
So now we have a simple series circuit consisting of a generator, the
loading inductor, and the R + L or C we used to substitute for the
antenna.

No we don't, Roy. You cannot be allowed, once again, to get away with
turning a distributed network problem into a lumped circuit problem.
If you can prove me wrong with a distributed network analysis, I will
be the first to admit my mistake. If you cannot prove me wrong with a
distributed circuit analysis, that's a big clue.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Woops, slipped through my fingers once again. My hat's off to the master.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

So now we have a simple series circuit consisting of a generator, the
loading inductor, and the R + L or C we used to substitute for the
antenna.


No we don't, Roy. You cannot be allowed, once again, to get away with
turning a distributed network problem into a lumped circuit problem.
If you can prove me wrong with a distributed network analysis, I will
be the first to admit my mistake. If you cannot prove me wrong with a
distributed circuit analysis, that's a big clue.

Cecil and his confederates will soon be taking into account the difference
in current, and the forward and backward reflections, between the ends of
the coil in a Pi-match network between the plate and 50-ohm output socket of
the common or garden 807 linear power amplifier. The Pi-match network
behaves as a 1/4-wave transmission line impedance matching transformer. Keep
going Cec!

And it has not yet been sorted out whether or not a congugate match exists.

There's a long way still to go. ;o) ;o)
---
Reg.

Reg Edwards wrote:

Cecil and his confederates will soon be taking into account the difference
in current, and the forward and backward reflections, between the ends of
the coil in a Pi-match network between the plate and 50-ohm output socket of
the common or garden 807 linear power amplifier. The Pi-match network
behaves as a 1/4-wave transmission line impedance matching transformer. Keep
going Cec!

Reg, I cannot believe you would side with the people who claim there is zero
delay through a p-net coil. Do you also believe in faster than light
propagation of signals? If there is a delay in one foot of copper wire,
don't you think it is reasonable to expect a delay in 20 feet of copper
wire formed into a coil?

Is the number of degrees on a Smith Chart between 0+j0 ohms and 0+j50 ohms
just a figment of my imagination?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Watch this space for another thrilling episode of the long-running,
nerve-tingling mystery story "The Case of the Missing Third Wire".