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Trevor Day wrote:
In message , Reg Edwards writes Trev, Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same length of feedline. Try it and see. I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about 10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes to Clerk Maxwell. As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. ---- Reg. Thanks Reg, I expect you are quite right, but I am still puzzled about the bandwidth aspect. Roy states that this is due to losses in the matching system, in which case would it be possible to 'detune' a similar small antenna and get similar results in that regard. If I can actually do that and see the result, then I will be happy :-) Trev Try running it it parallel with a suitable resistive load. You will see increased 'bandwidth', i.e. the SWR will be lower over a greater frequency range. If you eliminate the aerial altogether then the 'bandwidth' will cover frequencies up to several GHz with a good quality load ;-) I have actually worked a local amateur dummy load to dummy load. Both loads were good quality (one Bird, one Marconi) and all the cabling was short and good quality coax. Leakage was probably less than a few milliwatts. The rigs had different IFs so it probably was the signal frequency we were hearing. Being able to work stations is no measure of antenna efficiency. Heating is not a good way of determining efficiency unless you do real calorimetry. I've tried 100W CW key down into a real 100W continuous load (not one of the Made From Junk ones, which are grossly overrated), for ten minutes and the temperature increase was just discernible, it certainly didn't get hot. vy 73 Andy, M1EBV vy 73 Andy, M1EBV |
Trevor Day wrote:
Roy, I think you got as far as my first paragraph and didn't read any further. I am not attempting to justify this antenna or the way it works, just trying to get an explanation for one aspect of it. If you had read what I had written you would have seen the answer to your questions above. Is it possible to 'mismatch', for want of a better expression, a loop to achieve an equivalent bandwidth? Yes. Put a resistor in series or parallel with it, or put a pad (attenuator) between it and your rig. When you find the value that gets you the bandwidth of the CFA, you'll also have about the same efficiency. The power will be going into the resistor instead of into the "phasing" and/or matching networks. I have constructed many short verticals for portable and mobile use over the years, but have always experienced narrow bandwidth. It is this aspect of the 'EH' that I would like to understand. It's loss, plain and simple. btw, starting your answer with "Sigh" might be justified if I appeared to be ignoring your continued advice but surely not at first meeting? Sort of. You apparently didn't check groups.google.com to see the great mass of postings I and others have made about those antennas, many times before. A tremendous amount has been written and posted about the CFA and EH antennas. But like astrology, homeopathy, and other hoaxes, no amount of objective evidence keeps people from wanting to believe. Either they don't search it out, they're not able to evaluate it when they find it, or they choose to ignore it when it threatens their beliefs. It's resigning myself to that sad certainty and the Sisyphusian (Sisyphusan?) task of combatting it which makes me sigh. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
Trev,
As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. Unless one knows how the thing is supposed to work, which with EH and CFA is not very likely, there's no indication of where the loss may be except from a visual examination. If there are any coils of relatively thin wire, either in the antenna or tuner/phaser, then that's a good pointer. But experimenting to improve the bandwidth*efficiency product, one way or the other, will not get you very far. As one goes up the other is sure to go down. It's not difficult to guess which you would prefer. A magloop. with a single turn coil of copper pipe at the lower frequencies, is far and away the most narrow banded and therefore the most efficient of all the small antennas. Furthermore it has a built-in, equally very low loss tuner. ---- Reg. ====================================== "Trevor Day" wrote in message ... In message , Reg Edwards writes Trev, Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same length of feedline. Try it and see. I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about 10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes to Clerk Maxwell. As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. ---- Reg. Thanks Reg, I expect you are quite right, but I am still puzzled about the bandwidth aspect. Roy states that this is due to losses in the matching system, in which case would it be possible to 'detune' a similar small antenna and get similar results in that regard. If I can actually do that and see the result, then I will be happy :-) Trev -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org |
Being able to work stations is no measure of antenna efficiency.
What then, is the true relationship which affects the ability to work stations. |
"Trevor Day" wrote in message ... In message , Reg Edwards writes Trev, Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same length of feedline. Try it and see. I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about 10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes to Clerk Maxwell. As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. ---- Reg. You want QRP, Trev, I'll give you QRP. The telemetry transmitters used on the early TIROS weather satellites delivered only 10 milliwatts, yet they produced an S9 signal at a 400 mile high orbit at maximum slant range of 1800 miles to the horizon. I don't know about other TV satellites, but the RCA Satcoms of the late 70s and early 80s used transmitters that delivered only 5 watts at an altitude of 23,000 miles. (I will have to admit, however, that 5 watts into its 30 dB dish produced an EIRP of 5 kw.) Walt, W2DU ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- |
"Spike" wrote in message
... Frank wrote: The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; I'm sure you're right. However, a coil/capacitor is not a model or analogue of a spring/damper system. It was discussed extensively at the time. from Aero Spike I am not sure I understand your response. To be exact a "spring/damper" can be modeled as a coil/resistor. For resonance to occur you need a capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical or electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. Regards, Frank |
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:46:13 +0100, "Gerard Lynch"
wrote: [snip] Guns aren't an issue here. We're not allowed to have them. Nobody much (as in about 90% of the population) cares. We care about things you folks have never even heard about instead (fancy an ID card?) Over here in 'Merica they're called "Social Security Cards." Every newborn baby is required to have one. |
"Reg Edwards"
As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. ________________ I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over the world. RF Visit http://rfry.org for FM transmission system papers. |
Wes Stewart wrote:
Over here in 'Merica they're called "Social Security Cards." Every newborn baby is required to have one. But the illegal aliens can get their GED without one. They are issued a non-SS tracking number instead of SS#. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
In message , Reg
Edwards writes Trev, As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. Unless one knows how the thing is supposed to work, which with EH and CFA is not very likely, there's no indication of where the loss may be except from a visual examination. If there are any coils of relatively thin wire, either in the antenna or tuner/phaser, then that's a good pointer. But experimenting to improve the bandwidth*efficiency product, one way or the other, will not get you very far. As one goes up the other is sure to go down. It's not difficult to guess which you would prefer. A magloop. with a single turn coil of copper pipe at the lower frequencies, is far and away the most narrow banded and therefore the most efficient of all the small antennas. Furthermore it has a built-in, equally very low loss tuner. ---- Reg. Thanks for your time Reg, I drafted a lengthy response to your note above a little earlier but binned it in favour of this :-) I suppose my problem is that I would dearly like to believe the claims for the EH et al but my head tells me that it can't be so. I have had a lot of fun 'playing' with the idea and I suppose I should be happy with that. Trev -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org |
Richard Fry wrote:
"Reg Edwards" As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over the world. And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
So ?
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Frank wrote:
"Spike" wrote in message .. . Frank wrote: The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; I'm sure you're right. However, a coil/capacitor is not a model or analogue of a spring/damper system. It was discussed extensively at the time. I am not sure I understand your response. To be exact a "spring/damper" can be modeled as a coil/resistor. I refer you my other post on the subject, where I quote the OP in full. For resonance to occur you need a capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical or electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). from Aero Spike |
Richard Fry wrote:
I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over the world. Now shrink down those antennas by a factor of, say, 10 in size. Think they'd still do it? If so, you're the natural prey for the charlatans. In product development, we say fast-cheap-good, pick any two. With antennas it's small-efficient-broadband, pick any two. "Small" is, of course, always in terms of wavelength when it comes to antennas. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
"Richard Fry" wrote in message ... "Reg Edwards" As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. ________________ I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over the world. RF ================================== I've no reason to doubt it. But this is a topic about the bandwidth of physically small HF antennas. And as usual, when the slightest difference of opinion occurs, somebody invariably feels impelled to go off at a tangent and drag in something they feel more at home with, such as VHF and UHF TV transmitting antennas, and, very soon, if we are not careful, distractions such as scattering parameters, reflected power, etc. ---- Reg |
"Roy Lewallen" wrote - Now shrink down those antennas by a factor of, say, 10 in size. Think they'd still do it? If so, you're the natural prey for the charlatans. =============================== Roy, I'm thinking of occasionally changing 'old wives' to 'charlatans'. It may sometimes better fit the circumstances. ---- Reg. |
"Cecil Moore" said, And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. =================================== As it was quite true you just as well could have said it. So I didn't take the trouble to correct the minor error. Sorry Roy. === Reg. |
Ever heard of a diversity receiver?
============================== You seem to enjoy starting useless arguments. Are you a troll? Spacial or frequency diversity? Leave me out of it. --- Reg. |
For resonance to occur you need a
capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical or electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). from Aero Spike I am not aware of a damper ever being considered a storage device. Capacitance is equivalent to mass, Inductance is equivalent to a spring, and resistance equivalent to a damper. Am I missing something? Anyway will read later posts and see what I can get out of it. Frank |
No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the
mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). from Aero Spike Is this what you are talking about? "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. Frank |
Beanie's bum chum Nedlar wrote:
This guy, being a brave keyboard warrior, likes to call people idiots. However, when confronted by children he acts like the coward he is. I append a short article of his when he was posting as 'RVMJ' On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:04:36 +0000, RVMJ 99g wrote: Having been assaulted by two 'young people' in the garage at the back of my house, during which (being aware of the issues) I neither reacted or retaliated, I count myself lucky that they didn't concoct a story about the reverse being true. There were were no independent witnesses, and so their uncorroborated word as 'young people' would have been accepted without question, as is the normal practice. As they never surfaced before 10:30 on weekend mornings, I made sure that any outside work I wanted to do, such as car servicing or gardening, was done before that time, at which point I made myself scarce. Taking leave and doing jobs during the week wasn't on, as one couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't bunk off from school. As they used to congregate in the area of the garages, it meant I could never use my motorcycle without risking being accosted by them on my return, as there was no way of seeing if they were present. So for a year or two, until they discovered the world outside the area contained people of the opposite gender, I was a prisoner in my own house. Again, I count myself lucky that they only scratched my car four times, broke five radio aerials and two door mirrors, rendered the door-locks inoperative with matchsticks and slashed the tyres once. Young people need protection, did you say? Well done! You've mastered the art of cut & paste. What's next, a black belt in Origami? -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk |
Reg Edwards wrote:
Roy, I'm thinking of occasionally changing 'old wives' to 'charlatans'. It may sometimes better fit the circumstances. ---- Reg. Oh, boy! Then maybe before long I'll be able to add "RC" to my impressive and growing list of titles! Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
Frank wrote:
I am not aware of a damper ever being considered a storage device. Capacitance is equivalent to mass, Inductance is equivalent to a spring, and resistance equivalent to a damper. Am I missing something? Nope. But the OP, now posting as 'Polymath', had said "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" But the shock-absorber stores...nothing, and can return nothing. It therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalent of reactance, and cannot therefore be a part of a frequency-determining mechanism. He had failed to appreciate the property of mass - a rather fundamental point. That is why I said he was an idiot - a claim I see no reason to change. from Aero Spike |
Frank wrote:
Is this what you are talking about? "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. Exactly! That was the point, repeatedly made by others, at the time of the original posting. from Aero Spike |
"Spike" wrote in message
... Frank wrote: Is this what you are talking about? "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. Exactly! That was the point, repeatedly made by others, at the time of the original posting. from Aero Spike Which is exactly what you said in your original posting. The fact is I should have read it more carefully. Regards, Frank |
Beanie's Bum Chum Nedlar wrote:
How many bags do you get through in a month? What's your problem? Frustrated now Beanie's got a job during the week? Never mind, I don't suppose it will last long. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk |
Beanie's Bum Chum Nedlar wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:07:59 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI [ pass another bag ] wrote: What's your problem? Frustrated now Beanie's got a job during the week? Never mind, I don't suppose it will last long. What's your problem? Run out of bags? No, I've got plenty. Do you want some? -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk |
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:52:25 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:46:13 +0100, "Gerard Lynch" wrote: [snip] Guns aren't an issue here. We're not allowed to have them. Nobody much (as in about 90% of the population) cares. We care about things you folks have never even heard about instead (fancy an ID card?) Over here in 'Merica they're called "Social Security Cards." Every newborn baby is required to have one. And they say something like "not to be used for identification" right on the cards. The way things are going, we will probably all need to carry passports before long. |
"Bob Nielsen" wrote in message . net... On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:52:25 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote: Over here in 'Merica they're called "Social Security Cards." Every newborn baby is required to have one. And they say something like "not to be used for identification" right on the cards. The way things are going, we will probably all need to carry passports before long. Yeah. They say all sorts of things over here too. Internal passports... nice Tsarist idea, kept up by the KGB. This must be boring people who haven't killfiled us all who are looking for a discussion on aerials or electrical engineering (don't worry about being off topic on uk.radio.amateur - *we* all are) so I'd best QRT on this here breaker channel. -- 73 Gerry G0RTN Vanity Page at http://www.gerrylynch.co.uk |
Reg Edwards wrote:
"Cecil Moore" said, And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. As it was quite true you just as well could have said it. So I didn't take the trouble to correct the minor error. Reg, IMO, only a naive person would ever use the words, "absolutely sure". :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
"Reg Edwards"
And as usual, when the slightest difference of opinion occurs, somebody invariably feels impelled to go off at a tangent and drag in something they feel more at home with, such as VHF and UHF TV transmitting antennas, and, very soon, if we are not careful, _________ Admit it, Reg. You are just ready to pounce on me after I revealed the error of your belief that George Brown made a mistake by not measuring ground conductivity in the work for his landmark 1937 IRE paper (that you hadn't read) about ground systems for MW verticals. Don't pout. RF |
Beanie's bum chum Nedlar wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:42:36 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI wrote: What's your problem? Run out of bags? No, I've got plenty. Do you want some? No, your need is greater than mine. I'm not so sure, you must need a massive spew bag after a session with Beanie. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk |
Beanie's Bum Chum Nedlar wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:35:52 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI [ pass the bag ] wrote: I'm not so sure, you must need a massive spew bag after a session with Beanie. Even that would pale into insignificance compared to your need. I'm OK thanks, I just turn the lights off, you must need a gas mask. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk |
You have to make allowances for Mrs.Nugatory. As always,
I responded very quickly to a genuine request for help, but responded to the lead given by the questioner who mentioned spring/damper rather than spring/mass, and so I responded off-the-cuff without too much forethought. Better a quick response than none at all, or a response that had the hallmarks of a 13-year old mind that requires a literal meaning for everything, as does Mrs.Nugatory! I acknowledged the error in a subsequent posting but Mrs. Nugatory is a chronic paranoid obsessive who latches onto every thing that I say, and hounds the thing to death, as she is doing below, many months after the ephemeral chit-chat has ceased to have any relevance. For example, if you seek out the time that I alerted Usenet users to the availability of cheap dehumidifiers, Mrs.Nugatory managed to spin out over 50 pages of insistence that I knew nothing about them! Mentally deranged, or what! "Frank" wrote in message news:99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13... "Spike" wrote in message ... Polly parrotted: Actually, just did a quick webbing and found enough to realise that the claims are founded upon feet of clay..... 1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, even if it is your intention to excite separately. Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? from Aero Spike The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; as can virtually any physical system. As a reference refer to "Dynamics of Physical Circuits and Systems", by Lindsay and Katz at Concordia University, Montreal. ISBN 0-916460-21-5 published by Matrix of Beaverton OR. Frank |
"Absolutely unique"
"Utterly obliterated" "Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... Reg, IMO, only a naive person would ever use the words, "absolutely sure". :-) |
Which accounts for the place-name "The Butts" to be found
in many towns. "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message ... Wow! Check your history. Once it was a requirement for persons in England to be armed. Practice was also compulsory. |
Pound = Pound Weight, mass of one pound, acceleration (due to gravity)
of 32 ft/sec^2 Poundal = mass of one pound, acceleration of 1 ft/sec^2 (Cue Mrs.Nugatory to dive in with a 13-year-old's ridiculous insistence on literal detail?) Pound, Money = sort of like a dollar, but twice as valuable and more robust. "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message ... I continue to be in awe of MEs who always seem to know whether the "pounds" they are talking of are sort-of-like mass, or sort-of-like force, or money. |
Actually $1.76 as of today, but used to be worth $2.40.
Any country too politically correct to call a terrorist a terrorist is not long for the world. Tis a real shame the spawn of a great people that endured so much with the "stiff upper lip" are a bunch of wimps! "Polymath" wrote in message ... Pound, Money = sort of like a dollar, but twice as valuable and more robust. |
"Fred W4JLE" wrote:
: Actually $1.76 as of today, but used to be worth $2.40. : Any country too politically correct to call a terrorist a terrorist is not : long for the world. So... in a NON-POLITICAL way please describe those people of the mid to late 1700's who went around shooting soldiers who wore REDCOATS and GOVERNED a land the that was at one stage part of the GREAT BRITISH EMPIRE and had as one of its main cities BOSTON ? |
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