Dave wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
Also assume that the impedance bump caused by the insertion of the
Bird is negligible, i.e. the same net voltage and net current exists
whether the Bird is in or out of the circuit.

you can not assume this, especially if you consider the actual results of
the experiment. the bird is a 50 ohm transmission line segment and it is
seeing a 50 ohm load. the 50 ohm load plus 1/2 wave of anything is 50 ohms.
so as far as the bird knows there is no reflected power and the real world
reading is correct.

Remove the Bird, reconnect the two pieces of 75 ohm coax, and I'll
bet you will measure 70.7 volts and 1.414 amps at that point, 1/2
WL back from the 50 ohm load. If so, the Bird is NOT changing the
conditions when it is inserted. And we know there has to be reflected
power all up and down the 75 ohm coax. There is no place in the system
on the load side of the tuner where reflected power is zero. The
reflected power exists and the Bird reports a bogus reading for it.

With or without the Bird in the circuit the ratio of net voltage
to net current at the measurement point, 1/2WL away from the 50
ohm load, will be 50 ohms according to transmission line theory.
That's all the Bird is seeing - a V/I ratio of 50 which is irrelevant
to SWR unless Z0 is known and Z0 is known to be 75 ohms, NOT 50 ohms.

The ratio of net voltage to net current is All THE BIRD EVER SEES.
"As far as the bird knows ..." it is embedded in a 50 ohm environment.
But the Bird is not all-knowing. In this case, it is embedded in a
75 ohm environment and is giving bogus readings because all it sees
(samples) is a net voltage to net current whose ratio is 50 ohms.

It is what the Bird doesn't know that is important. The Bird doesn't
know that it is not embedded in a 50 ohm environment, and in its
ignorance of that fact, reports bogus results.

The actual SWR on a lossless line doesn't change. Yet, in another
posting, I showed that moving the Bird 1/4WL closer to the load
caused a reported SWR change by the Bird from 1:1 to 2.25:1. How
could both results possibly be right?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Frank wrote:
Did I miss something? As far as the Bird is concerned, all it sees is 50
ohms, indistinguishable from a 50 ohm termination, on its connector.

Exactly the point, Frank. The Bird doesn't know it is embedded
in a 75 ohm environment and reports bogus results because it
assumes it is embedded in a 50 ohm environment, which it is not.
This is Reg's main point in wanting to call the SWR meter a TLI
meter.

The Bird is not to blame for reporting bogus results. It is the
operator who is to blame for using a 50 ohm meter in a 75 ohm
environment and reporting the bogus results as valid.

100w--tuner--75 ohm coax--x--1/2WL 75 ohm coax--50 ohm load

Without a Bird installed at point 'x', most everyone would
agree that the SWR all up and down the 75 ohm coax is 1.5:1
and the voltage and current at point 'x' are the same as the
in-phase voltage and current at the 50 ohm load.

The voltage at point 'x' is 70.7 volts, and the current at point
'x' is 1.414 amps. The SWR on the line is 1.5:1.

Now, installing the Bird at point 'x' doesn't change anything
appreciably. The voltage at point 'x' is still very close to
70.7 volts and the current at point 'x' is still very clost
to 1.414 amps. Those two parameters are what the Bird samples
and all the Bird sampoles. And since the Bird is calibrated for
50 ohms, it reports a bogus SWR of 1:1. If the Bird is recalibrated
for 75 ohms, it will report the correct SWR of 1.5:1.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
.. .
Dave wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
Also assume that the impedance bump caused by the insertion of the
Bird is negligible, i.e. the same net voltage and net current exists
whether the Bird is in or out of the circuit.

you can not assume this, especially if you consider the actual results of
the experiment. the bird is a 50 ohm transmission line segment and it is
seeing a 50 ohm load. the 50 ohm load plus 1/2 wave of anything is 50
ohms. so as far as the bird knows there is no reflected power and the
real world reading is correct.

Remove the Bird, reconnect the two pieces of 75 ohm coax, and I'll
bet you will measure 70.7 volts and 1.414 amps at that point, 1/2
WL back from the 50 ohm load. If so, the Bird is NOT changing the
conditions when it is inserted. And we know there has to be reflected
power all up and down the 75 ohm coax. There is no place in the system
on the load side of the tuner where reflected power is zero. The
reflected power exists and the Bird reports a bogus reading for it.

With or without the Bird in the circuit the ratio of net voltage
to net current at the measurement point, 1/2WL away from the 50
ohm load, will be 50 ohms according to transmission line theory.
That's all the Bird is seeing - a V/I ratio of 50 which is irrelevant
to SWR unless Z0 is known and Z0 is known to be 75 ohms, NOT 50 ohms.

The ratio of net voltage to net current is All THE BIRD EVER SEES.
"As far as the bird knows ..." it is embedded in a 50 ohm environment.
But the Bird is not all-knowing. In this case, it is embedded in a
75 ohm environment and is giving bogus readings because all it sees
(samples) is a net voltage to net current whose ratio is 50 ohms.

It is what the Bird doesn't know that is important. The Bird doesn't
know that it is not embedded in a 50 ohm environment, and in its
ignorance of that fact, reports bogus results.

The actual SWR on a lossless line doesn't change. Yet, in another
posting, I showed that moving the Bird 1/4WL closer to the load
caused a reported SWR change by the Bird from 1:1 to 2.25:1. How
could both results possibly be right?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

obviously at 1/4 wave from the load the impedance seen by the bird is not 50
ohms. you just can't ignore that internally the bird is a 50 ohm line, even
though it is only a couple inches long it is 50 ohms, put a 50 ohm load on
it and it will read no reflected power. this is just how it works, you
can't wish it to be anything else, especially when the actual measurements
prove me correct. you may try to assume away the bird and its
characteristic impedance, but it just won't go away as evidenced by the real
world measurements. you have to realize that the bird is not measuring what
is going on outside it's case, the only thing it can measure is the voltage
and current in its little 50 ohm internal world. so look at it from the
meter's point of view... it looks out the load side and sees 50 ohms, it
can't know that it is really a 75 ohm line, in fact it can't know there is
any line there at all, it just sees a 50 ohm load, therefore no reflection
into the meter, and no reflected power reading. qed.

Dave wrote:
obviously at 1/4 wave from the load the impedance seen by the bird is not 50
ohms.

That's the whole point, Dave. The poor ignorant Bird doesn't know what
is going on external to itself. You and I have to be smarter than the
Bird and not report its bogus results as "correct". The Bird reports
a 9:1 SWR on a matched-line 450 ohm ladder-line. Is the SWR really 9:1?

this is just how it works, you
can't wish it to be anything else, especially when the actual measurements
prove me correct.

The actual measurements prove you wrong! The forward power reported by
the Bird is NOT the actual forward power. The reflected power reported
by the Bird is NOT the actual reflected power. The SWR reported by the
Bird does not exist anywhere in the system on the load side of the tuner.
The Bird is totally confused because it is being abused by the operator.
The operator is totally ignorant when he reports the readings are "correct".

you have to realize that the bird is not measuring what
is going on outside it's case, the only thing it can measure is the voltage
and current in its little 50 ohm internal world.

That's exactly the point and that's why some readings reported by the
Bird are obviously bogus when compared to the broader knowledge of
actual external conditions. The operator needs to be smarter than the
Bird.

so look at it from the
meter's point of view... it looks out the load side and sees 50 ohms, it
can't know that it is really a 75 ohm line, in fact it can't know there is
any line there at all, it just sees a 50 ohm load, therefore no reflection
into the meter, and no reflected power reading. qed.

But you and I know that 75 ohm reflected energy is flowing through the
Bird and the Bird is ignoring it. Of course, we cannot blame the Bird
for the bogus readings. We can only blame the ignorant operator who reports
that the bogus readings are "correct" when they are obviously false.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:


The actual SWR on a lossless line doesn't change. Yet, in another
posting, I showed that moving the Bird 1/4WL closer to the load
caused a reported SWR change by the Bird from 1:1 to 2.25:1. How
could both results possibly be right?

You need to keep thinking about that. What if they are both right? Is
it really one continuous, uniform transmission line? Is SWR the same
everywhere in a tee stub circuit?

ac6xg

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
obviously at 1/4 wave from the load the impedance seen by the bird is not
50 ohms.

That's the whole point, Dave. The poor ignorant Bird doesn't know what
is going on external to itself. You and I have to be smarter than the
Bird and not report its bogus results as "correct". The Bird reports
a 9:1 SWR on a matched-line 450 ohm ladder-line. Is the SWR really 9:1?

well DUH! obviously if you want to measure swr on a 450 ohm ladder line you
don't use a 50 ohm bird! anyone using a 50 ohm bird has to expect results
to be referenced to its internal 50 ohm line. i.e. if you actually do
measure no reflected power so you know the load on the bird is 50 ohms, and
if you really are in a 75 ohm environment then you can compute what the swr
is on the 75 ohm line... just don't expect the bird to show it to you
directly.

"Cecil Moore" wrote -
Minus the humor, I believe this is Reg's main point.

====================================

Dear Cec,

I assume you are referring to me, Reg Edwards, G4FGQ.

Before responding I have found it necessary to have several glasses of
Australian, Banrock Station, 2004, Shiraz Mataro, Red. It can be
recommended with confidence.

I have only ever had ONE point. It is that arguments and discussions
about SWR, invariably involving "ifs" and "buts" and vivid
imaginations of the contributors, are of entertainment value only. In
any event, CB-ers and novices are unlikely to learn anything from it.

There is only one transmission line on which SWR matters. It is that
which runs between the so-called SWR meter or tuner and the antenna.
It is generally unknown. But whatever it is the so-called SWR meter,
even a Bird, is incapable of measuring it.

Having got that off my chest. now perhaps I can finish the bottle with
a cigarette.
----
Reg, G4FGQ.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:31:22 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote:

The Bird is in error when it reports the SWR to be 1:1.
This is the poor carpenter blaming his tools. The instrument can only
be valid within its presumed operating conditions. Deliberate misuse
is not a reason to crow about inaccuracy.
The SWR is *NOT* 1:1 anywhere on the load side of the tuner.
This is the poor carpenter asking for his wage for his "craft." The
Bird is accurately responding to the operating conditions it is found
within. The manufacturer of the Bird wattmeter makes no claim as to
the state of match BEFORE the meter; and especially when it is so
obviously and deliberately misused - which in this sliver of
specificity is transparent to the reading.

What is being busted is the claim that a necessary condition of
operation for the Bird was the requirement for a length of 50 Ohm line
to "force" a purely mythical presumption. That myth has been exposed
and discarded.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Owen,

To respond to your last question:
Has anyone experimental evidence to the contrary?
is consistently NO. Your own time at the bench has already drained
the pool of ability in that regard. Your only expectation ever after
having bellied up to the bench is to watch your work being gummed to
death.

However, for completeness' sake, and as no one here really understands
what accuracy is about anyway, there is one factor to be considered.
The numbers offered verge on the limit of the Bird's ability to
resolve a power anyway. There is a built in probability of ±5W of
error from the get-go, and any snake oil salesman can craft an
argument leveraging that error to prove anything. We have seen that
±5W error in the form of an argument that uses both + and - (not
simply one or the other) to please a theory.

Owen, the same experiment with a deliberate mismatch of 3:1 would be
just as effective at busting the myth AND providing data that
overwhelmed the inherent meter inaccuracy.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
The actual SWR on a lossless line doesn't change. Yet, in another
posting, I showed that moving the Bird 1/4WL closer to the load
caused a reported SWR change by the Bird from 1:1 to 2.25:1. How
could both results possibly be right?

You need to keep thinking about that. What if they are both right?

Here's the example sans the Bird. Between the tuner output
and the load, where exactly is the actual SWR = 1:1 and where
exactly is the actual SWR = 2.25:1? Answer: nowhere!

XMTR--tuner---1 WL 75 ohm coax---50 ohm load
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Dave wrote:
well DUH! obviously if you want to measure swr on a 450 ohm ladder line you
don't use a 50 ohm bird!

Yes, now you are getting it. If you want to measure SWR on a 75 ohm
coax line, you don't use a 50 ohm Bird. I couldn't have said it
better myself.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp