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Two antennas and two power amps
"CD" wrote in message ups.com... Hi folks, I have some questions. If I had two power amps at 15W each, 2 feet apart, and they are connected to two similar isotropic antennas, would the two far-field patterns add up? How would I calculate the power received by a receiver at a certain distance? I wonder since each antenna will have 0dB gain, then ideally the loss that I would need to take into account would just be free space path loss, eh? Will the antenna patterns change in terms of beamwidth and gain? What other changes/factors do I need to know about? Interesting proposal. Interaction between the 2 would depend on several factors. Your only stipulation is that they are 2 ft apart, so... The frequency would matter and [[Relative]] lengths of coax to each antenna would also matter. Its possible you could have a phased array. Under certain conditions gain could be broadside to the two, in some other conditions, gain could be endfire. Its probable, though, that all you have is a mess. unless the builder is one of us. hehe |
#2
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Two antennas and two power amps
Hal Rosser wrote:
SNIPPED Interesting proposal. Its probable, though, that all you have is a mess. unless the builder is one of us. hehe Then, no matter how it works, it will be debates to death, argued about, condemned, praised, and finally you will be judged a fool. We do have some strong willed 'Know-it-Alls' who read this list. We also have some very knowledgeable contributors. "By their fruits ye shall know them." |
#3
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Two antennas and two power amps
"CD" bravely wrote to "All" (20 Oct 05 06:44:55)
--- on the heady topic of "Two antennas and two power amps" CD From: "CD" CD Xref: core-easynews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:219123 CD I have some questions. If I had two power amps at 15W each, 2 feet CD apart, and they are connected to two similar isotropic antennas, would CD the two far-field patterns add up? How would I calculate the power CD received by a receiver at a certain distance? CD I wonder since each antenna will have 0dB gain, then ideally the loss CD that I would need to take into account would just be free space path CD loss, eh? Will the antenna patterns change in terms of beamwidth and CD gain? What other changes/factors do I need to know about? I'm not sure of the physics involved but when 2 oscillators of nearly the same frequency are brought within a certain maximum distance of each other, their frequency and phase will lock together suddenly. You can experiment the effect with walkie-talkies. I'll bet the same effect will occur with your transmitters. A*s*i*m*o*v .... A seminar on Time Travel will be held 2 weeks ago |
#4
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Two antennas and two power amps
On 20 Oct 2005 06:44:55 -0700, "CD" wrote:
Hi folks, I have some questions. If I had two power amps at 15W each, 2 feet apart, and they are connected to two similar isotropic antennas, would the two far-field patterns add up? How would I calculate the power received by a receiver at a certain distance? I wonder since each antenna will have 0dB gain, then ideally the loss that I would need to take into account would just be free space path loss, eh? Will the antenna patterns change in terms of beamwidth and gain? What other changes/factors do I need to know about? Thanks! Simple answer. First simplify. Two power amplifiers only cloud the issue. We could say they are perfect ones and leave it at that but it makes no difference if we just leave them out. Assume those same isotropic radiators are feed by an inphase (0degree) power splitter. What we have then is a pair of isotropic antennas as an array. at low frequencies it will appear to be a fat radiator, and at some frequency it will start to appear directional. Assuming the frequency is high enough (around 5mhz) it will have measurable directionality. At various points in space around those two antennas the measurment antenna will recieve different amounts of RF with varying phase. Why, the distances are with notable exception unequal. The only place in space that will have the full radiated power is a plane center between the two radiators and perpendicular to the line between the two radiators. All other places there will be a phase difference due to time/distance from the radiators and measurement antenna. Those places will recieve less than full radiated power due to the phase difference. The exact power is related to antenna seperation and operating frequency. Now if we pick a frequency, say 123mhz, which has a wavelength of around 8 feet. The pattern (and gain) of the phased array (two antennas feed in parallel are a phased array) will be similar to a dipole in free space. For other frequencies the results will differ. The exact answer obviously is frequency dependent and position dependent. The exact field strength at a point in space is power and location dependent. There is a standard calculation for path loss that can be applied one you know the "gain" or "loss" of the array of radiators in a particular direction Allison KB!GMX |
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Two antennas and two power amps
Debate all you want, here's the scoop.
The answer to your first question (add?) is Yes. That is how multi-element antennas work, regardless of the element shapes. For your second & third question (how to calc &pattern, beamwidth, gain): With the described "one transmitter feeding two antenna" system you have nothing more than a phased array. Using two amplifiers is not important as long as you use good techniques connecting everything and match impedances _when both amps are transmitting_. That is if, in the first approximation, you have all the power from each amp going into the respective antenna. I suspect this is a valid assumption for the original poster. I'll speculate that this will be harder with only a splitter (no amps) due to the mutual coupling in the antennas and the impedance change therefrom, but matching things removes this complication. Gee... do isotropic antennas have any mutual coupling / impedance?? Seems there could be for voltage only. anyway... The relative phase of the two antenna currents will create the pattern (by summation in the farfield) [[regardless of the shape of the "iron in the sky" as I call it]] I believe (and Lew can corroborate or dispel) you can use EZNEC to get an idea what will happen by looking only at the horizontal plane, or vertical view of two verticals; 1/4 wave should do. This is the "plan view" or the view from above, where the verticals look like two dots. This should represent the view of the two iso's that looks the same (two dots). With equal power and in phase current, you'll have a figure eight with the nulls broad-side and the depth of the nulls will depend on the frequency... starting from lower freq, at a frequency where the spacing is 1/2 wave, the nulls are deepest and as frequency increases, the pattern will develop more and more lobes/nulls. IF the two antenna currents/powers are not the same, you should also be able to model this in EZNEC as described and the nulls will not go to zero as expected (well, by me at least). Looking at the two iso's from the endfire direction (the two iso's look like one dot)..lemme think here... Oh yea, you'll see a round pattern ( perfect circle) of varying diameter as you vary the relative phase/amplitude. This will be equivalent to looking at it at only one angle from the plane equidistant from the two dots. Hard to describe, easy to imagine. As you change the angle of this cone (similar to viewing pattern at differing radiation angles), the circle also changes diameter. SO... The "gain" will vary depending on Frequency, relative phase of the two feeds and relative power of the two feeds. I don't thing path loss is considered in pattern calculations since it is the same for all components in the field by the time you get to any distance. Post some pix. OK, dispute away, I'm done. Any comments Lew? Regards, Steve, K,9.D;C'I "CD" wrote in message ups.com... Hi folks, I have some questions. If I had two power amps at 15W each, 2 feet apart, and they are connected to two similar isotropic antennas, would the two far-field patterns add up? How would I calculate the power received by a receiver at a certain distance? I wonder since each antenna will have 0dB gain, then ideally the loss that I would need to take into account would just be free space path loss, eh? Will the antenna patterns change in terms of beamwidth and gain? What other changes/factors do I need to know about? Thanks! |