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current/inductance discusion
Gentlemen
I am not a electrical engineer or antenna expert e.t.c. The above controversy is purely about the term 'lumped' items such as resistance, capacitance and inductances, all of which are mythical. Each of these three items contain parts of the others and the label assigned to each of these is that which DOMINATE. So an inductance has resistance and capacitance as well as the inductance but the latter is what predominates. Since all these have three items are part of its label they are obviously circuits. When you read the handbook they show an equivalent circuit for an antenna as a circuit with the mythical lumped inductance, resistance and capacitance which can be used for advantage in solving circuits in a mathematical aproach only in the same way mathematics use the mythical sq root of -1 . Now I know educated people in the field are aware of this but for some reason they want to make it look dificult. Let me give an example of how lumped loads can be used to advantage. We have a tuner with two variable capacitances and a variable inductance, this assembly does not radiate.( NOT INTENDED TO) If we change the capacitances to circuits that contains resistance, inductance as well as the predominating variable capacitance and use another circuit that has all of these but with the predominant inductance we can connect the two capacitive circuits by the connecting inductive circuit by common inductive coupling. Now have an equivalent circuit to the tuner that we started with, It not only radiates but preserves the function of a tuner REGARDLESS of the size of the radiators Thus by changing the format backwards from the so called lumped constants of the tuner we now have a radiating coupled assembly that is the basis for small antennas without relationship to wave length. This is the exact antenna I have driven by my rotator on the top of my tower for top band use. It radiates but also retains all the original functions for direct connection to a transmitter or feedline without the original separate matching system or tuner. It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance, inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a lumped spot. Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped circuit i.e. capacitance generates a phase change, period. Only the amount of phase change can be up for discussion. A long posting but not as long as the thread started by Roy in response to my last posting on this discussion which apparently ticked him off.. Have at it guys Regards Art. A nobody with no credabilty ! |
Art, KB9MZ wrote:
"---resistance, inductance and capacitance are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a lumped spot." I`m guessing Art`s point was that all circuit elements are impure. A resistor has lead inductance and is shunted by self-capacitance, etc. That is not the only cause of anomaly. Size in terms of wavelength means that radiation becomes significant in some cases, especially in structures designed to radiate. If there is radiation from a circuit, ordinary circuit analysis does not apply say King, Mimno, and Wing, all Ph.D.`s at Harvard teaching U.S. Army and Navy officers in the Graduate School of Engineering during WW-2. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
Art:
[snip] A nobody with no credabilty ! [snip] Cry baby! [snip] It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance, inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a lumped spot. Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped circuit [snip] Heh, heh... Electrodynamics... Circuit Electrodynamics: In the beginning there was Circuit Theory [Ohm, Kirchoff] which was found wanting.... Field Electrodynamics: Then there came Field Theory [Maxwell, Heaviside], which was found wanting... Quantum Electrodynamics: Then there came Quantum Electrodynamics [Einstein, Pauli, Schrodinger, Dirac, Feynman] and to date... nothing is found wanting... What, exactly is your problem? Circuit Theory, Field Theory and finally Quantum Theory are all evermore exact models of the real world. For many problems Circuit Theory suffices, but... For those knowledgeable... they move from Circuit-Theoretic models to Field-Theoretic models when the situation warrants, and they move from Field-Theoretic models to Quantum-Theoretic models [QED] when the situation warrants... Don't use QED as the infrastructure of a Spice program and don't use Circuit Theory as the infrastructure of an NEC program! An Engineer is... a person who knows how to model efficiently and... When to change models... What? -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL |
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Peter, I have no idea what you are talking about which is probably why you didn't get any responses to your posting. It doesn't seem to say anything and then you put a word "what " at the end, which I can only guess it means you have change your mind on what you stated earlier (It is the best I could come up with Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled. Art Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net... Art: [snip] A nobody with no credabilty ! [snip] Cry baby! [snip] It is time for people to get back to basics, that resistance, inductance and capacitances are all electrical CIRCUITS and NOT a lumped spot. Accepting these facts forces one to consider what a current reaction is when meeting ANY of the constituents of the so called lumped circuit [snip] Heh, heh... Electrodynamics... Circuit Electrodynamics: In the beginning there was Circuit Theory [Ohm, Kirchoff] which was found wanting.... Field Electrodynamics: Then there came Field Theory [Maxwell, Heaviside], which was found wanting... Quantum Electrodynamics: Then there came Quantum Electrodynamics [Einstein, Pauli, Schrodinger, Dirac, Feynman] and to date... nothing is found wanting... What, exactly is your problem? Circuit Theory, Field Theory and finally Quantum Theory are all evermore exact models of the real world. For many problems Circuit Theory suffices, but... For those knowledgeable... they move from Circuit-Theoretic models to Field-Theoretic models when the situation warrants, and they move from Field-Theoretic models to Quantum-Theoretic models [QED] when the situation warrants... Don't use QED as the infrastructure of a Spice program and don't use Circuit Theory as the infrastructure of an NEC program! An Engineer is... a person who knows how to model efficiently and... When to change models... What? |
Art, Or, people do have an idea of what Peter is talking about, and agree. Art, you can't peek through a key hole and call it a 'world view' without it being a 'small world'... "what?". 'Doc |
Art:
[snip] Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled. Art [snip] Heh, heh... Well, I got the term "What?" and that particular usage from my then... teenage sons, both now in their mid-thirties, but no grandchildren, What? "Cajun", heh, heh... Hey... I was born in the "real" Acadia [Nova Scotia] and so was formerly a British Subject. I left for the "colonies" lo these many years ago and I am no longer taxed without representation. Since I immigrated, I have always lived in the "Deep South". I have been to "Luzianne" and "Nawlins" often and I have many Cajun friends. I have been properly introduced to "crab boils", "pulled pork" and the pleasures of cayenne pepper and "crawdads". But... I have never "run off" any real persons, only pretentious, oafs flouting advanced University degrees! Best Regards, -- Peter K1PO |
'Doc wrote in message ...
Art, Or, people do have an idea of what Peter is talking about, and agree. Art, you can't peek through a key hole and call it a 'world view' without it being a 'small world'... "what?". 'Doc Doc There you go again attacking a poster without adding any substance to the discussion. Just for once to prove your not full of sh#t, explain if you can, what Peter is talking about. Perhaps you could also enlighten us with your theory of the subject at hand, but then, as most readers know on this group you "never" get involved in depth you just stand on the sidelines throwing barbs at those with the ability to do so. Jaro |
But Peter you said something about changing a model
What was that all about ? Regards Art "Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message ink.net... Art: [snip] Frankly I don't see that 'What" term in my books or in the newespapers so I presume it must be a Cajun type dielect that is used in the swamps or something. You used it a lot when you ran Chip off the group but since I don't know what you are talking about I will stay on even tho Ian and Roy have now fled. Art [snip] Heh, heh... Well, I got the term "What?" and that particular usage from my then... teenage sons, both now in their mid-thirties, but no grandchildren, What? "Cajun", heh, heh... Hey... I was born in the "real" Acadia [Nova Scotia] and so was formerly a British Subject. I left for the "colonies" lo these many years ago and I am no longer taxed without representation. Since I immigrated, I have always lived in the "Deep South". I have been to "Luzianne" and "Nawlins" often and I have many Cajun friends. I have been properly introduced to "crab boils", "pulled pork" and the pleasures of cayenne pepper and "crawdads". But... I have never "run off" any real persons, only pretentious, oafs flouting advanced University degrees! Best Regards, |
Peter,
I have read your posting again and again without commic thoughts to the term 'What' and I have no intention of following 'Doc" I do see that you are educated as I believe I am, tho I am not a Doctor. But where you and I differ is in philosophy. One can become educated by following the crowd and concentrate on what is necessary to pass the exam. By the same token one can do the same but place attention to what is pushed aside as being inconsequential in terms of general useage ans inductance pretty much fits into that bracket, whereas even the inconsequental information is also pursued by the inquisitive. To make money in life one can push aside what is inconsequential but if you are inquisitive it is often the study of what is placed on the cutting room floor that provides inovation, the latter is what I do. Now let us consider my model and since you are educated I can cut some corners. When looking at antennas current is everything so that is where inovation starts. An examle where current can be changed is a simple transformere. It has two seperate circuits and it satisfies lawas of E = I R ( add cos phi if you want to )but what it does do that one doesn't normally thing off is to add the function of coupling. Link coupling when coils are wound on top of each other or proximity coupling when wound on separate bobbins. So thinking outside of the box we have a model that matches its power input, has two circuits that are connected and suplies a means for high current flow. All of this is down to COUPLING.... Now this tyransformer model provides exactly what the World requires of an antenna and pushes aside physical dimensions such as wavelength, radials e.t.c. I know ...there is nothing new..... Now apply that same thinking to the subject of antennas. We have an equivalent item that we use for matching purposes and that is a pi network. Now we have the means of providing matching to an antenna with capacitance etc. to provide an output but remember what we called inconsequential about lumped items which are really attempts to remove what we originally disliked ala coupled networks. By coupling circuits ( networks) we can maintain ideal input matching, increase current into a desired circuit and because it is a circuit it will radiate. And do it very well with high efficiency as well as meeting the reqirement for high radiation by virtue of the increased current. Now this model or way of thought is new but it is a different application of the known that is considered inconsequential and thus is not seen in books that is written for crowd followers. Should one discard a model just because it is not in a book ? Not if you are inquisitive, you then make such a system that has all these desirably qualities and enjoy your efforts while others who rely only on books or exercise their mouths poke fun because to them it is unknown. I HAVE THAT ANTENNA AND IT WORKS EXACTLY CCORDING TO KNOWN THEORY you are welcome to point out any fallacies as why it shouldn't or can't work as I believe it is the new horizon for antennas and experimental work. Regards Art |
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jaro, Sort of like what you are doing? Art drew one conclusion from Peter's post. I supplied another. What's your problem? 'Doc |
The so called experts are really screwing around to provide
a platform to show off there learned minds instead of sticking to basics Art Their you go! Wuold the rael epertxs santd up and sictk to biascs? Bdaa BUm |
Art:
[snip] "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... But Peter you said something about changing a model What was that all about ? Regards Art [snip] What I meant is that there is the "real world" and its' behaviour as evidenced by experiment and measurement and then there are "models" , i.e. theories or mathematical constructs which humans have devised to "imitate" or "model" the "real world". When considering accuracy and precision whenrepresenting real experiments and measurements models that attempt to reflect real world performance over time have come in various stripes. In the history of electro-dynamics there have been three major models/theories developed in three eras over the last couple of hundred years. (I) Circuit-Theoretic Model Era (circa: 1750 - 1850): The first model/theory of electro-dynamics was the "circuit-theoetic" model which used the circuit theory of Messers Kirchoff and Ohm, developed in the late 1700's and the early part of the 1800's . Kirchoff's Laws and Ohm's Laws for DC circuits ultimately supported by Heaviside's operational calculus in the mid 1800's to reflect both DC and AC phenomena. [Heaviside invented the terms reactance, and impedance, etc.] But experimentalists and the "electricians" of the day found that circuit theory models did not predict everything exactly! All that said, the circuit-theoretic electro-dynamic model is pretty simple and accessible to anyone with a modicum of mathematical background, say the equivalent of high school algebra and complex numbers. Sorry... but if you can't do simple algebra, deal with the square root of minus one, and manipulate complex numbers then circuit-theoretic models are not your cup of tea. Get off the train here and go into marketing or the social sciences! :-) Circuit theory does a pretty good job of predicting lots of things, but it fails to predict effects such as skin effect, proximity effect, radiation, etc... And so the electro-dynamic model was eventually augmented by a newer model which was more accurate reflects reality more closely. The second stage of the three eras of electro-dynamic theories was the: (II) Field-Theoretic Model Era (circa: 1840 - 1910): The "field-theoretic" model was first formulated the famous Scottish theoretical physicist James Clerk Maxwell, and rendered in its' modern form by the eccentric, uneducated, self-taught English genius Oliver Heaviside. Heaviside wrote down Maxwell's extremely complex theory in the form of four simple vector differential equations as we now know them. Whilst previously it had taken the Cambridge educated Maxwell 22 quaternion laced equations to write down the same simple theory! Heh, heh... Of course Heaviside, a denzien of the London slums, who never went to school beyond age 16, had the advantage of "simplicity-of-thought" over the Cambridge educated Maxwell. All that said, the field-theoretic model is considerably more complicated than the circuit-theoretic model and is only accessible to those prepared to go beyond high school algebra and complex numbers into the calculus of vector differential equations. Sorry but if you are not prepared to go there, as the sixteen year old poor boy from the slums of mid 1800's London did, then field-theoretic modeling is not your cup of tea, and you need to go into marketing or the social sciences... :-) Field theory is more complicated than circuit theory but it does a pretty good job of predicting all that circuit theory predicts plus a lot of other things, such as skin effect, proximity effect, radiation, etc... but even field theory fails to predict the photo-electric effect, and other interactions of photonic energy and matter, etc... And so the electro-dynamic model had to be expanded yet again, this third (and final) theory is called QED or Quantum Electrodynamics. (III) Quantum-Theoretic Model Era a.k.a. QED (circa: 1900 - 2000) The quantum-theoretic model was initiated by Einstein in the first decade of the 1900's to explain the photoelectric effect and was further developed by Pauli, Dirac, Schrodinger, Planck, and many others and ultimately "simplified", in the Oliver Heaviside style, by one Richard P. Feynman from the Bronx, NY who also dramatically exposed the cause of the Challenger tragedy with a glass of ice water. For these efforts "Albert" was awarded the Nobel prize. One can only presume that the Nobel committee did not feel that the Theory of Relativity a.k.a the "Ultimate Theory of Gravitation", was worth the prize! Although they did award the prize to that Italian ham radio operator Guglielmo Marconi! What? :-) Now the mathematics needed to access QED is considerably more complex than that needed for circuit theory (Algebra and Complex Numbers), field theory (Algebra and Complex Numbers plus Vector Calculus and Vector Differential Equations). Indeed to access QED models one needs to understand all of the aforementioned plus the mathematical Theory of Probability and the Theory of Groups, Rings and Ideals. If you are not prepared to go there, as that poor boy named "Richard" from the Bronx was, why then QED is not your cup of tea and you should get off the model train now and take up marketing or the social sciences... :-) It seems today that QED models encompass all prior models and fully explain all known electro-dynamic phenomena and that mankind does not require further models to augment those at hand to predict electrodynamic reality. I wonder? All that said... this does not mean that QED has displaced field-theoretic and circuit-theoretic concepts and models. Indeed circuit-theroretic and field-theoretic models are more widely used today than ever before! Indeed circuit-theoretic models and field-theoretic models are used daily by Engineers and scientists (Note the capitalization!) on a daily basis. [Engineers make things people need out of stuff they can get, while scientists... :-)] Indeed the mathematics and mechanisms of QED and field-theory are much to complicated and unecessary to make efficient modeling of phenomena that are quite adequately described by circuit theory. Hence the very popular SPICE computer programs, originally developed, with US Taxpayer support, at UC Berkeley in California and widely available for free download, which are used everywhere today to design both discrete and integrated electronic circuits from modern Op-Amps to Pentium processors uses the century and a half old circuit-theoretic models. For an excellent free version of SPICE download LTSpice from the Linear Technology Corp. web site at: http://www.linear.com/software/ and run circuit-theoretic models to your heart's content, just don't use SPICE codes to design antennas or predict the skin effect! :-) Oliver Heaviside would quickly recognize the SPICE program flow charts and computer codes were he alive today! But circuit theory is not complex enough to solve antenna and radiation problems or skin and proximity effects and so one needs access to models and computer programs that solve the partial differential vector equations of the Maxwell-Heaviside field theory. Hence the very popular, US Taxpayer supported, NEC computer program codes were developed at Lawrence Livermore Labs, also available as free downloads. Our own Roy Lewallen W7EL provides his EZNEC programs based upon the free NEC codes for a modest fee. Download Roy's free demo of EZNEC at: http://www.eznec.com/index.shtml and run field-theoretic models to your heart's content, just don't use it to design photoelectric sensors or Pentium processors! ;-) Finally if you really need to go there... There are plenty of QED computer programs available, also widely supported by the US Taxpayers, just google... An Engineer is a person who knows reality and knows her models, and she... "knows whento hold them and when to fold them". She uses them to design and build things that people need out of stuff that she can get. Don't forget to thank the, often vilified, US Taxpayers for their unwavering support of the development of all of the free computer program implementations of circuit-theoretic, field-theoretic and QED models with the computer programs called SPICE, NEC and other QED kinda stuff... Happy Holidays, y'all! -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL Hey... "surf's up"! |
Peter K1PO among other wow stuff:
[Engineers make things people need out of stuff they can get, while scientists... :-)] ....take a free ride, write the papers, get government grants, fancy titles, give engineers hard time by nitpicking on 0.00001, and .... :-( In Europe engineers get to use the title Ing. or Dipl.Ing. to indicate that they completed studies and are working on improving the tools for mankind. In Canada they use P.Eng., here in Hamerica they are the best kept secret, underpaid, overworked, oversued. Just look at Nikola Tesla or ask any student. Who? What? Yuri :-(da ridiculed peng)-: |
Yuri:
[snip] In Europe engineers get to use the title Ing. or Dipl.Ing. to indicate that they completed studies and are working on improving the tools for mankind. In Canada they use P.Eng., here in Hamerica they are the best kept secret, underpaid, overworked, oversued. Just look at Nikola Tesla or ask any student. Who? What? Yuri :-(da ridiculed peng)-: [snip] So you are saying that Engineers are the Rodney Dangerfield of American society! Yep, I do believe that you are correct. First manufacturing and then Engineering follows... it's getting worse over here year by year with more and more "high tech" Engineering work being done by our far eastern brothers and less here in the West. Each year the next generation of Engineers I see graduating from our schools seem to exhibit less and less knowledge and skill. It happened with consumer electronics and ham radio equipment lo these many years ago today it is software development and soon "all" Engineering will be gone from the West. Eventually there will be no more Engineers in the West who understand technology, just a bunch of "technology operators" with great social science and marketing skills operating the video games of life! Only be a few of us old-time "antenna gurus" will recall when and how the A/D and D/A converters got put on the outside of the antenna connectors on our SDR's!!! And... all the rest will olny have Art Uwnin explagnini to htem woh thigns wrk. Not a pretty picture! ;-) -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL |
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
And so the electro-dynamic model had to be expanded yet again, this third (and final) So far, :-) theory is called QED or Quantum Electrodynamics. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
.... snip sinp
Not a pretty picture! ;-) -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL Right on Peter, Maybe time for engineers to get into politics, replace lawyers and dumb politicians in running the country. Get some sanity into governing because it doesn't look too promising. Seeing dummycRATS spewing venom at president with loud support from the "media", brainwashing illiterates just doesn't look so good. I hope that country is being pushed to the extreme only to kick back and shake the liberal commie establishment back to the caves. 73 Yuri |
Dear Peter:
I would have sent this to you privately, but you do not provide a valid E-mail address. Well done on presenting the sequence of understanding and emphasizing the role of mathematics. In "Hamerica" some real Engineers are P.E.s. It is not just for Canadians. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA |
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Wes, N7WS wrote:
"We had an engineer for President. Look how well that worked out. One term and we replaced him with a movie actor. Jimmy Carter in retirement, is negotiating peace accords around the world. He is now in Geneva working with Palestineans and Israelis. We`ve had other engineers starting with George Washington. We`ve had Herbert Hoover, a,n engineer, who wrecked the economy, as Ronald Reagan later did. Hoover, the engineer was replaced by FDR who served 11 years and changed the world for the better forever. W. is trying to undo the New Deal and in the process will likely wreck the economy as Hoover did. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI |
Mac:
[snip] "J. McLaughlin" wrote in message ... Dear Peter: I would have sent this to you privately, but you do not provide a valid E-mail address. [snip] The Internet "worms" nearly *killed* my computer communications capability this past year, no thanks to the younger generation of unethical "hackers" and brought to everyone courtesy of the "world's richest man", and so these days... If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. :-) [snip] Well done on presenting the sequence of understanding and emphasizing the role of mathematics. [snip] Thanks! As you no doubt appreciate, it pays to know a little history only to avoid repeating it. There is very little ambiguity equivocationn or cause for argument when using the universal albeit sometimes cryptic language of mathematics. The elementary mathematical skills which Art often eschews are neither difficult nor expensive to acquire and definitely not difficult to carry around. Such skills do however require some little dedication to study... just as the ham radio license *used to* require. :-) Art's "cry baby" attitude about his lack of such skills does nothing to help either himself or the other NG participants. "Mathematics - just do it" would be a good motto for Art to follow perhaps replacing his continual complaints regarding his lack of ability and qualifications. Art's "cry baby" comments only appear boorish and become very tiresome to NG participants. [snip] In "Hamerica" some real Engineers are P.E.s. It is not just for Canadians. [snip] Well Mac as you well know, MI is not far from Canada sharing both a riverside a lakeside and common weather. What's your point? :-) [snip] 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA [snip] Speaking of Michigan, my wife and I attended a party at our next door neighbour's home here last week. MI snowbirds, Jo and Ivan had just arrived here in FL from MI to stay over the season here in their winter home on our "tropical island". Me? Even though an ex-Canadian, I like it here on the island all year long. Mac. Take care and enjoy the Holiday Season up North. -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL |
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:30:09 GMT, "Peter O. Brackett"
wrote: The Internet "worms" nearly *killed* my computer communications capability this past year, no thanks to the younger generation of unethical "hackers" and brought to everyone courtesy of the "world's richest man", and so these days... If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. Hi Peter, Security is your responsibility unless you intend to vote Fascist in the next election. Blaming others is simple, and leaving it up to arrl dot net to take the spam flak is moral equivocation. Why don't you ask them how they cope where you stumble? OR Simply visit: http://grc.com/default.htm My address has been exposed to every robot for a decade. Agent kills the porn quicker that this group downloads to my reader. I've tried GB's of free/shareware and I haven't suffered a virus since they came hidden the floppy's boot sector in the late 80's. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. For anyone who is a member of the IEEE, their forwarding service is very secure. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Cec:
[snip] "Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... Peter O. Brackett wrote: If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. For anyone who is a member of the IEEE, their forwarding service is very secure. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp [snip] I too use the IEEE relay service, but on different NG's from this one. -- Peter K1PO k1po at arrl dot net peter dot brackett at ieee dot org :-) |
"Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net...
Mac: [snip] "J. McLaughlin" wrote in message ... Dear Peter: I would have sent this to you privately, but you do not provide a valid E-mail address. [snip] The Internet "worms" nearly *killed* my computer communications capability this past year, no thanks to the younger generation of unethical "hackers" and brought to everyone courtesy of the "world's richest man", and so these days... If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. :-) [snip] Well done on presenting the sequence of understanding and emphasizing the role of mathematics. [snip] Thanks! As you no doubt appreciate, it pays to know a little history only to avoid repeating it. There is very little ambiguity equivocationn or cause for argument when using the universal albeit sometimes cryptic language of mathematics. The elementary mathematical skills which Art often eschews are neither difficult nor expensive to acquire and definitely not difficult to carry around. Such skills do however require some little dedication to study... just as the ham radio license *used to* require. :-) Art's "cry baby" attitude about his lack of such skills does nothing to help either himself or the other NG participants. "Mathematics - just do it" would be a good motto for Art to follow perhaps replacing his continual complaints regarding his lack of ability and qualifications. Art's "cry baby" comments only appear boorish and become very tiresome to NG participants. Well Peter now you are being stupid and making up stories. Maybe I can expect the same tactics that you put on Chip when he made claims on antennas which you didn't understand But I am ready. You stated lack of skills on my part well I have enough of those skills that you are talking about. I made the claim of an antenna that uses all those skills and you stated a good engineer knows when to discard his model. Well Peter, if you were an engineer you would not discard it until you made a working model and compared it to theory ( using all those mathematical skills that you bandy about or as I say talking the talk). I also gave you the theoretical background of the antenna and invited you to point out the fallacies , mathematical ofcourse, and all you still do is 'talk the talk' with no show. Well Peter, if that the attitude you need to take me on with then be my guest, even with the likes of the Doctor and the Bum holding your coat or throwing snide remarks is not enough to push me off the newsgroup like you did with Chip. So go ahead and be my guest and flaunt your mathematical skills to show how I and my antenna is a fake and my skills are lacking. I would love it for you to make a stand on that subject so everybody can see who you are and what you are when forced to 'walk the walk'. If I haven't the qualifications in any subject I carefully state so especially when talking on this newsgroup, I am no way interested in infering that I am an expert where I am not, there are enough doing that already, but with respect to my antenna work I stand by it. I am willing to walk the walk but you Peter obviously feel more comfortable in just talking or making acrid remarks. So I am staying here Peter, and you can have at it and show your true colours Can I now expect for you to sue me now since you are well practiced at that? Art Unwin..... XG [snip] In "Hamerica" some real Engineers are P.E.s. It is not just for Canadians. [snip] Well Mac as you well know, MI is not far from Canada sharing both a riverside a lakeside and common weather. What's your point? :-) [snip] 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA [snip] Speaking of Michigan, my wife and I attended a party at our next door neighbour's home here last week. MI snowbirds, Jo and Ivan had just arrived here in FL from MI to stay over the season here in their winter home on our "tropical island". Me? Even though an ex-Canadian, I like it here on the island all year long. Mac. Take care and enjoy the Holiday Season up North. |
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
I too use the IEEE relay service, but on different NG's from this one. The IEEE relay service filters for viruses and worms. I don't know for sure but I don't think the ARRL relay service performs that function. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:36:57 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote: |Hi All, | |The statement "an engineer" is certainly inaccurate by my count too. |What about Davis, Grant, and Eisenhower? I was thinking of people that I had a chance to vote for. But, what about them? If we're going to get picky. You choose to limit the population by who you could've voted for is not? Davis wasn't POTUS. He sure wasn't POTUSSR. Washington was not an engineer in the usually accepted sense of the word. A technically trained user of instrumentation for the purpose of measuring and generating specifications is not an engineer? We are not talking about Alchemy or Astrology here. Getting picky. If attending West Point makes one an engineer, then Grant and Ike were engineers. Otherwise... Otherwise? ALL graduates of West Point are engineers. West Point is the 4th overall rated Engineering school in America. It was the ONLY Engineering school in America for decades. Grant worked in his father's leather shop, and was a failed farmer and financier. (Anheuser Busch owns the farm now. I was there a couple of months ago.) I have degrees in the Liberal Arts and have made a career in Engineering. I have failed in many things. I don't suppose you want to vote for me, but then I'm not running. Ike was a jock, who went to West Point intending to play ball, not to get an engineering degree. (I was at his library, tomb, etc. a couple of months ago too.) Begs the results, he graduated with an Engineering degree. If we're looking for qualifications for greatness, maybe "self-taught" should be more important than "Harvard-educated lawyer" or "West Point-educated engineer." Washington and Lincoln top my list. (I spent some time with Abe this summer too) This, too, is picky. I can't say that I have any favorite president, especially after having put my life on the line to obey their orders. Those several, I'm sure, considered themselves great presidents. The point is, there is nothing inherently distinctive about being an Engineer, and being President, and the combination being great or bad. There is nothing distinctive about a president wearing a flight-suit for an afternoon - especially when 77% of the troops would vote for someone else ("The Army Times" Poll, Oct 2003). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:36:48 GMT, "Larry"
wrote: A little off subject, but did you know Robert E. Lee was originally an engineer in the Army? One of the reasons he was so successful is that he helped design many of the forts he later captured... partly because he knew their structural weaknesses. Larry N8LP Hi Larry, We are all off topic. Lee graduated from West Point as Honor man. He was the first cadet to do so with 0 demerits (damned difficult to, considering using the word damn hits you with one demerit). Lee was also the Superintendent of West Point (same as Chancellor or head of a University). The infrastructure of America (canals, railways, bridges...) were all designed by West Pointers before the Civil War. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:31:12 GMT, Richard Clark
wrote: |On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:36:57 -0700, Wes Stewart |wrote: ||Hi All, || ||The statement "an engineer" is certainly inaccurate by my count too. ||What about Davis, Grant, and Eisenhower? | |I was thinking of people that I had a chance to vote for. But, what |about them? If we're going to get picky. | |You choose to limit the population by who you could've voted for is |not? Forgive me. This topic drifted off when Yuri (if I can remember that far back) proposed the premise that maybe we would be better off with engineers running things rather than lawyers and politicians. I offered *an* example of POTUS and *an* example of a mayor to refute this idea. I did not intend them to be the *only* examples. | |Davis wasn't POTUS. | |He sure wasn't POTUSSR. | | |Washington was not an engineer in the usually accepted sense of the |word. | |A technically trained user of instrumentation for the purpose of |measuring and generating specifications is not an engineer? We are |not talking about Alchemy or Astrology here. Getting picky. Not me, the place that I worked for sure was though. I can tell you from very personal experience that it was the accepted norm that many, many graduate engineers thought that *anyone*, regardless of talent, without an engineering degree was not a "real" engineer. Hell, I knew people that thought that if you didn't have a PhD you didn't know squat. One of these could not hold a conversation about the weather without interjecting, "When I was working on my thesis...." [snip] | I don't suppose you want |to vote for me, You have a great gift of gab, but no, I wouldn't vote for you g |
"Larry" wrote in message igy.com...
A little off subject, but did you know Robert E. Lee was originally an engineer in the Army? One of the reasons he was so successful is that he helped design many of the forts he later captured... partly because he knew their structural weaknesses. Larry N8LP Larry, so good to see you back. What ever happenned with your article and ARRL? It would be a real shameif your article doesn't reach the ham community at large. Best regards Art "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:38:48 -0600 (CST), (Richard Harrison) wrote: Wes, N7WS wrote: "We had an engineer for President. Look how well that worked out. One term and we replaced him with a movie actor. Jimmy Carter in retirement, is negotiating peace accords around the world. He is now in Geneva working with Palestineans and Israelis. We`ve had other engineers starting with George Washington. We`ve had Herbert Hoover, a,n engineer, who wrecked the economy, as Ronald Reagan later did. Hoover, the engineer was replaced by FDR who served 11 years and changed the world for the better forever. W. is trying to undo the New Deal and in the process will likely wreck the economy as Hoover did. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Hi All, The statement "an engineer" is certainly inaccurate by my count too. What about Davis, Grant, and Eisenhower? 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Art:
My friend you have me confused with someone else! I have never once commented or posted anything about *your* antenna inventions or technical claims. Nor do I intend to until you stop whining! What I have commented on is your many posts which contain complaints laments and cries for pity and understanding because of your claimed lack of knowledge, expertise, or whatever. Your suppositions that others do not give your *inventions* credit simply because you lack such personal qualifications is plain stupidity. Art, that's why I call you "cry baby" and "whiner". If your technical inventions/claims/whatever... are great then they will stand on their own merits and need no support by claims of the insufficient qualifications of their inventor! I have noted one here who gives a damn what technical credentials you, or any other poster to the NG, hold! Your qualifications are irrelevant to the subject. [Unless of course you happen to hold a Ph.D. from Cornell in Astrophysics, only then apparently can you claim that your graduaton diploma makes your inventions unique and special! [Heh, heh... That last sentence was not meant to denigrate that fine University, only one of it's claimed graduates.] Art, just stop your whining and let the world get on with its valid and invalid critiques of your work! Hey... Oliver Heaviside, never accepted his nomination to the Royal Society, by degreed grandees and he never completed grade school, or studied anything formally beyond age 16, yet Oliver stood with the greatest scientists, mathematicians, engineers and natural philosphers of his time simply be "doing" things that they couldn't. Education, academic degrees, and technical training mean nothing. Art my friend, it's your "track record, it's what you accomplish in life or do that is important, not what examinations you have passed! Get real you big cry baby, let what you have done or accomplished stand on it's own merits and see if it survives and what others think of it, and just stop all of your damned whining! If it doesn't survive the critiques of the world then it isn't worth a damn anyway. No one pays attention to whiners! I for one simply don't care to waste valuable time investigating any technical advances or claims put forward and supported by a whiner and whining. Whining about inferiority and lack of academic qualifications is a sure sign that the prosyletizer probably has nothing worth while to contribute. Art, put your ideas and inventions out there and let others have at it, if your ideas and accomplishments are worthy they will stand on their on, if not they wont! But whining about inferior technical qualifications...? What does that accomplish? Whining... Man, give it up! Instead, spend your bandwidth on clear concise explanations of your the benefits and originality of your technical contributions. Nuff said? -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL. "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net... Mac: [snip] "J. McLaughlin" wrote in message ... Dear Peter: I would have sent this to you privately, but you do not provide a valid E-mail address. [snip] The Internet "worms" nearly *killed* my computer communications capability this past year, no thanks to the younger generation of unethical "hackers" and brought to everyone courtesy of the "world's richest man", and so these days... If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. :-) [snip] Well done on presenting the sequence of understanding and emphasizing the role of mathematics. [snip] Thanks! As you no doubt appreciate, it pays to know a little history only to avoid repeating it. There is very little ambiguity equivocationn or cause for argument when using the universal albeit sometimes cryptic language of mathematics. The elementary mathematical skills which Art often eschews are neither difficult nor expensive to acquire and definitely not difficult to carry around. Such skills do however require some little dedication to study... just as the ham radio license *used to* require. :-) Art's "cry baby" attitude about his lack of such skills does nothing to help either himself or the other NG participants. "Mathematics - just do it" would be a good motto for Art to follow perhaps replacing his continual complaints regarding his lack of ability and qualifications. Art's "cry baby" comments only appear boorish and become very tiresome to NG participants. Well Peter now you are being stupid and making up stories. Maybe I can expect the same tactics that you put on Chip when he made claims on antennas which you didn't understand But I am ready. You stated lack of skills on my part well I have enough of those skills that you are talking about. I made the claim of an antenna that uses all those skills and you stated a good engineer knows when to discard his model. Well Peter, if you were an engineer you would not discard it until you made a working model and compared it to theory ( using all those mathematical skills that you bandy about or as I say talking the talk). I also gave you the theoretical background of the antenna and invited you to point out the fallacies , mathematical ofcourse, and all you still do is 'talk the talk' with no show. Well Peter, if that the attitude you need to take me on with then be my guest, even with the likes of the Doctor and the Bum holding your coat or throwing snide remarks is not enough to push me off the newsgroup like you did with Chip. So go ahead and be my guest and flaunt your mathematical skills to show how I and my antenna is a fake and my skills are lacking. I would love it for you to make a stand on that subject so everybody can see who you are and what you are when forced to 'walk the walk'. If I haven't the qualifications in any subject I carefully state so especially when talking on this newsgroup, I am no way interested in infering that I am an expert where I am not, there are enough doing that already, but with respect to my antenna work I stand by it. I am willing to walk the walk but you Peter obviously feel more comfortable in just talking or making acrid remarks. So I am staying here Peter, and you can have at it and show your true colours Can I now expect for you to sue me now since you are well practiced at that? Art Unwin..... XG [snip] In "Hamerica" some real Engineers are P.E.s. It is not just for Canadians. [snip] Well Mac as you well know, MI is not far from Canada sharing both a riverside a lakeside and common weather. What's your point? :-) [snip] 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA [snip] Speaking of Michigan, my wife and I attended a party at our next door neighbour's home here last week. MI snowbirds, Jo and Ivan had just arrived here in FL from MI to stay over the season here in their winter home on our "tropical island". Me? Even though an ex-Canadian, I like it here on the island all year long. Mac. Take care and enjoy the Holiday Season up North. |
Art, For the last time, I am not a doctor. I have never been a doctor. And, I've never claimed to be a doctor of any kind. It's a nick name. I didn't pick it, it was 'given' to me, I didn't have any choice in the matter. But I've had it for quite some time now and have gotten used to it. If you want to misconstrue it's meaning, I can't do anything about that, other than explain as I have a number of times. If you don't like it, then I'm sorry. But don't expect me to change it, I'm not going to do that at this late date. If you don't want to call me 'Doc, that's fine, don't. My name is Paul, you can use that, or whatever your little heart desires. I'm tired of your nonsense about a nick name. ------- 'Doc ------- PS - Rather than 'snide', call my remarks about you 'pithy'. I've never been full of 'snide'. I'll probably admit to being full of 'pith'. |
Einstein : E = m*c^2
Heaviside : p = d/dt |
Petert,
I bemoan the fact that so many on this newsgroup such as yourself just do not understand complex circuits and how it relates to antennas. We have an abundance of people who can only do the talk as well as some that can do the walk. As far as antennas and complex circuitry goes you have shown that you can only do the walk. That will disapoint the Doctor of Phillosophy as well as the Bum since they now do not have anybody to follow, tailgate or whatever for their snide remarks without content. You are quite correct that having something after your name as it only shows a level of education that you have recieved and not meant to show what one has achieved. As for myself it was my future employer that paved the way with money and government interjection for me and my family to come to the U.S. If I 'fooled' them then at that time while in the U.K.then I fooled them until my retirement in the U.S.where again I became a nothing. You however, feel that not having retired retains a couple of steps above us that have, which gives you the right to admonish at will with a spray of He, He ,He's and a "What" or "****' thrown in for good measure probably to relieve your own similar tensions obtained by you from your collegues at work ! Art By the way I have this picture of you in my mind that shows you short in height but certainly not retund. Am I close? As for lifes track record time is short and the grim reaper does not give advance notice so get moving. "Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net... Art: My friend you have me confused with someone else! I have never once commented or posted anything about *your* antenna inventions or technical claims. Nor do I intend to until you stop whining! What I have commented on is your many posts which contain complaints laments and cries for pity and understanding because of your claimed lack of knowledge, expertise, or whatever. Your suppositions that others do not give your *inventions* credit simply because you lack such personal qualifications is plain stupidity. Art, that's why I call you "cry baby" and "whiner". If your technical inventions/claims/whatever... are great then they will stand on their own merits and need no support by claims of the insufficient qualifications of their inventor! I have noted one here who gives a damn what technical credentials you, or any other poster to the NG, hold! Your qualifications are irrelevant to the subject. [Unless of course you happen to hold a Ph.D. from Cornell in Astrophysics, only then apparently can you claim that your graduaton diploma makes your inventions unique and special! [Heh, heh... That last sentence was not meant to denigrate that fine University, only one of it's claimed graduates.] Art, just stop your whining and let the world get on with its valid and invalid critiques of your work! Hey... Oliver Heaviside, never accepted his nomination to the Royal Society, by degreed grandees and he never completed grade school, or studied anything formally beyond age 16, yet Oliver stood with the greatest scientists, mathematicians, engineers and natural philosphers of his time simply be "doing" things that they couldn't. Education, academic degrees, and technical training mean nothing. Art my friend, it's your "track record, it's what you accomplish in life or do that is important, not what examinations you have passed! Get real you big cry baby, let what you have done or accomplished stand on it's own merits and see if it survives and what others think of it, and just stop all of your damned whining! If it doesn't survive the critiques of the world then it isn't worth a damn anyway. No one pays attention to whiners! I for one simply don't care to waste valuable time investigating any technical advances or claims put forward and supported by a whiner and whining. Whining about inferiority and lack of academic qualifications is a sure sign that the prosyletizer probably has nothing worth while to contribute. Art, put your ideas and inventions out there and let others have at it, if your ideas and accomplishments are worthy they will stand on their on, if not they wont! But whining about inferior technical qualifications...? What does that accomplish? Whining... Man, give it up! Instead, spend your bandwidth on clear concise explanations of your the benefits and originality of your technical contributions. Nuff said? -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL. "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Peter O. Brackett" wrote in message link.net... Mac: [snip] "J. McLaughlin" wrote in message ... Dear Peter: I would have sent this to you privately, but you do not provide a valid E-mail address. [snip] The Internet "worms" nearly *killed* my computer communications capability this past year, no thanks to the younger generation of unethical "hackers" and brought to everyone courtesy of the "world's richest man", and so these days... If you want to email me direct you must send via the arrl dot net relay. :-) [snip] Well done on presenting the sequence of understanding and emphasizing the role of mathematics. [snip] Thanks! As you no doubt appreciate, it pays to know a little history only to avoid repeating it. There is very little ambiguity equivocationn or cause for argument when using the universal albeit sometimes cryptic language of mathematics. The elementary mathematical skills which Art often eschews are neither difficult nor expensive to acquire and definitely not difficult to carry around. Such skills do however require some little dedication to study... just as the ham radio license *used to* require. :-) Art's "cry baby" attitude about his lack of such skills does nothing to help either himself or the other NG participants. "Mathematics - just do it" would be a good motto for Art to follow perhaps replacing his continual complaints regarding his lack of ability and qualifications. Art's "cry baby" comments only appear boorish and become very tiresome to NG participants. Well Peter now you are being stupid and making up stories. Maybe I can expect the same tactics that you put on Chip when he made claims on antennas which you didn't understand But I am ready. You stated lack of skills on my part well I have enough of those skills that you are talking about. I made the claim of an antenna that uses all those skills and you stated a good engineer knows when to discard his model. Well Peter, if you were an engineer you would not discard it until you made a working model and compared it to theory ( using all those mathematical skills that you bandy about or as I say talking the talk). I also gave you the theoretical background of the antenna and invited you to point out the fallacies , mathematical ofcourse, and all you still do is 'talk the talk' with no show. Well Peter, if that the attitude you need to take me on with then be my guest, even with the likes of the Doctor and the Bum holding your coat or throwing snide remarks is not enough to push me off the newsgroup like you did with Chip. So go ahead and be my guest and flaunt your mathematical skills to show how I and my antenna is a fake and my skills are lacking. I would love it for you to make a stand on that subject so everybody can see who you are and what you are when forced to 'walk the walk'. If I haven't the qualifications in any subject I carefully state so especially when talking on this newsgroup, I am no way interested in infering that I am an expert where I am not, there are enough doing that already, but with respect to my antenna work I stand by it. I am willing to walk the walk but you Peter obviously feel more comfortable in just talking or making acrid remarks. So I am staying here Peter, and you can have at it and show your true colours Can I now expect for you to sue me now since you are well practiced at that? Art Unwin..... XG [snip] In "Hamerica" some real Engineers are P.E.s. It is not just for Canadians. [snip] Well Mac as you well know, MI is not far from Canada sharing both a riverside a lakeside and common weather. What's your point? :-) [snip] 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin - Michigan USA [snip] Speaking of Michigan, my wife and I attended a party at our next door neighbour's home here last week. MI snowbirds, Jo and Ivan had just arrived here in FL from MI to stay over the season here in their winter home on our "tropical island". Me? Even though an ex-Canadian, I like it here on the island all year long. Mac. Take care and enjoy the Holiday Season up North. |
Art:
[snip] By the way I have this picture of you in my mind that shows you short in height but certainly not retund. Am I close? [snip] Heh, heh... yse. You really wanna know my physical description! What's with you? Next you'll be whining that a short but not rotund man is being critical of your inventions simply because you are tall and rotund! Hey! Just in case it matters and FYI... I'm 5' 8", 165 pounds, blood pressure 115/70, I run 7 minute miles daily, current age 62, born just after Pearl Harbour, and my dear wife Mary still thinks I'm a "hunk" after 40 years of marriage! What? Currently I run a "thriving" personal consulting business from my home office - doing analog and RF design for companies that no longer seem to be able to find good analog and RF designers among the current generation of Engineers - and so keep coming back to us "old farts" for new designs! What? -- Peter K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL. |
Heh, heh... yse. You really wanna know my physical description! What's with you? Could it be that he is long lost brother of Chipster? There is some silimarity :-) Pa-tents, inquiring mnid, vining, yada, yada fat BUm but back on Atkins |
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