Max,
An antenna as you described would make a good wireless
'dog fence' on 160 meters, but that's about it, I'm afraid.
Just slightly 'better' on 80 meters, and on 40 meters, just
very slightly 'better' than that. It will become 'almost-
an-antenna' on bands higher than 40 meters where it's length
is more than just a fraction of a wave length, but don't expect
much performance, NVIS or not. That's for transmitting. On
the other hand, it'll make a very quiet recieving antenna for
bands where it's length is more than a small fraction of a
wave length.
From what you say (no supports of any kind for an antenna)
I think you are going to be 'hurting' for an HF antenna, other
than a vertical of some kind. Is there any way you could
attach a wire doublet of some length to the eaves or peak of
your roof? Doesn't necessarily have to be of any particular
lengths or symetrical shape Longer is better), although that
would peobably help. Any height is better than no height,
as you'll be finding out...
'Doc

"'Doc" wrote in message ...
Is there any way you could
attach a wire doublet of some length to the eaves or peak of
your roof? Doesn't necessarily have to be of any particular
lengths or symetrical shape Longer is better), although that
would peobably help. Any height is better than no height,
as you'll be finding out...

Hello Doc,

I am on the ground floor of a two level apartment building. No roof to get
at and no eaves. My unit itself has 3 floors counting the basement where
the shack is. I was running a vertical, about 25' hung from under the
balcony above me, totally invisible, except being so close to the building
itself, the noise levels on 40 and 20 made those bands useless. Also being
vertically polarized, it was causing RFI on the computer upstairs, and
probably the neighbours as well. I have no way of running anything
horizontal above the ground as this would involve climbing and hard to do
that without the neighbours noticing. I have a feeling the property managers
will be doing some work on the balconies in the spring anyway, so the
antenna would surely be noticed then. I think I am going to go for the
ground laid antenna and hope for the best. My other alternative is a 8' CB
whip with a flag on the top, which has been up before without any problems.
This antenna is however too short to load on 40 with the tuner.

Thanks for all the input guys, I will scratch my head some more, maybe I
will think of some way to hang something from the balcony.

Max,
If nothing else presents it's self, you might try a
'CCD' (Controled Capacitance Distribution antenna). The
biggest draw backs are that they are a wave length long
and use silver mica capacitors that are not cheap. But
it can be laid on the ground and they do work. There's
a pretty good writeup in one of the ARRL's Antenna
Compendium books, not sure which one. It wouldn't be my
first choice in your situation, but it is an alternative.
'Doc

"'Doc" wrote in message ...
Max,
If nothing else presents it's self, you might try a
'CCD' (Controled Capacitance Distribution antenna). The
biggest draw backs are that they are a wave length long
and use silver mica capacitors that are not cheap. But
it can be laid on the ground and they do work. There's
a pretty good writeup in one of the ARRL's Antenna
Compendium books, not sure which one. It wouldn't be my
first choice in your situation, but it is an alternative.
'Doc

Thanks Doc, I'll look into it. At this stage in the game I am open to any
suggestions!!

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:13:37 -0500, "VE3TMT" wrote:

My other alternative is a 8' CB
whip with a flag on the top, which has been up before without any problems.
This antenna is however too short to load on 40 with the tuner.

Interesting. How about mounting the whip on a small bike (for
extra height) and attaching an orange pennant to the top? Looks just
like the things some parents have their kids use for visibility when
riding near cars. Should questions arise about the feedline -- uh,
it's for theft-proofing?

How did you find out? That is exactly what I use as a stealth antenna. I have a
bicycle out in front of theapartment in the bike rack, with the very whip you
described with the triangle orange flag on the top to decieve the cops, and I
run coax from the house to the bike, running it up the kickstand, across the
frame to the 'flag' on the back. With it parked in the bike rack here at the
apartment complex with all the other kid's bikes, no-one seems to notice a
thing. I keep the power down on transmit just in case some kid just happens to
be getting his bike from the bike rack at the same time I am txing.
jkhh

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:13:37 -0500, "VE3TMT" wrote:


"'Doc" wrote in message ...
Is there any way you could
attach a wire doublet of some length to the eaves or peak of
your roof? Doesn't necessarily have to be of any particular
lengths or symetrical shape Longer is better), although that
would peobably help. Any height is better than no height,
as you'll be finding out...

Hello Doc,

I am on the ground floor of a two level apartment building. No roof to get
at and no eaves. My unit itself has 3 floors counting the basement where
the shack is. I was running a vertical, about 25' hung from under the
balcony above me, totally invisible, except being so close to the building
itself, the noise levels on 40 and 20 made those bands useless. Also being
vertically polarized, it was causing RFI on the computer upstairs, and
probably the neighbours as well. I have no way of running anything
horizontal above the ground as this would involve climbing and hard to do
that without the neighbours noticing. I have a feeling the property managers
will be doing some work on the balconies in the spring anyway, so the
antenna would surely be noticed then. I think I am going to go for the
ground laid antenna and hope for the best. My other alternative is a 8' CB
whip with a flag on the top, which has been up before without any problems.
This antenna is however too short to load on 40 with the tuner.

Thanks for all the input guys, I will scratch my head some more, maybe I
will think of some way to hang something from the balcony.


HI all

In your Circumstance I would opt for a small transmitting loop.. that
you could set out when on the air and bring in when not.. Though the
small loop is very Hi-Q and has to be retuned every few KHZ. it would
be a good compromise for you as they work really well when mounted
vertically close to the ground. they offer all radiation angles from
0 to 90 degrees and will give you plenty of qso's .. give it some
thought and I bet you can even find ways to hid one.. in the yard.

73 , Dave KC1DI

P.S. a google search for small transmitting loop will return numerous
pages to explore on the topic.

VE3TMT wrote:
I have come to the conclusion the only antenna I am going to be able to use
is a ground mounted dipole or random wire. No antenna supports in the yard,
no fences, no attic. I tried a vertical "flagpole" but it is just too noisy.
Nothing but me and the yards of my two neighbours. I am able to run about
60 feet of 22 gauge green enameled wire along the length of the yards. I
have done extensive reading on NVIS propagation, but I'm curious if anyone
is actually using this method on 160, 80 or 40m.

Thanks,

Max

Can you not put a small pole at each end of the building and hang a doublet?

How about a loop or doublet on small stand offs attached to the eaves of the
building?

A pair of moble whips set up as a dipole on a pole somewhere?

A perusal of the ARRL Antenna Book for other ideas?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
VE3TMT wrote:
I have come to the conclusion the only antenna I am going to be able to
use
is a ground mounted dipole or random wire. No antenna supports in the
yard,
no fences, no attic. I tried a vertical "flagpole" but it is just too
noisy.
Nothing but me and the yards of my two neighbours. I am able to run
about
60 feet of 22 gauge green enameled wire along the length of the yards.
I
have done extensive reading on NVIS propagation, but I'm curious if
anyone
is actually using this method on 160, 80 or 40m.
Thanks,
Max

Can you not put a small pole at each end of the building and hang a
doublet?
How about a loop or doublet on small stand offs attached to the eaves of
the
building?
A pair of moble whips set up as a dipole on a pole somewhere?
A perusal of the ARRL Antenna Book for other ideas?
Jim Pennino

Number 28 is too small to be much use, and too fragile. Get some Electric
fence wire, which is 15 gage, and as you indicate a clear length of 60 Feet,
Run several strands spaced a few inches apart for that distance. It is not
too obvious, and could be described as a way to discourage birds, or
providing the birds a place to land, depending upon whom you are answering.
By adding a loading coil in a couple of the strands, and a few shorter
lengths to provide a wider band width, you can cobble together an all band
net...... or fence! I've done it, but I ran mine along the roof peak. The
HOA wouldn't like that!

Can you not put a small pole at each end of the building and hang a
doublet?

How about a loop or doublet on small stand offs attached to the eaves of
the
building?

A pair of moble whips set up as a dipole on a pole somewhere?

A perusal of the ARRL Antenna Book for other ideas?

--
Jim Pennino

I'm located on the ground level of a two level apartment. Balcony overhangs
my yard, which would be great to hang something off, but it is a strickly
"no antennas allowed period" building. I thought about a dipole using a
pair of hamsticks, but I would have to go out and change them to operate
different bands. And the height would not be great. If I stick anything
under the balcony above me it picks up too much electrical noise from the
building. There are wall supports at each end of the balcony, approx 50'
total length, but my feedline would be visible. My main intention is to get
something, anything hidden so I can spend the winter nights warm in the
shack. I am house hunting next year!!!

Max