"Roy Lewallen" wrote:
Of course loading coils can be expressed in electrical degrees. But
extrapolating this to mean that a loading coil has the same properties
as an antenna with the same number of "degrees" has no justification.

I haven't heard anybody make that assertion in years. Coils
occupy whatever number of degrees that they occupy. The
technical fact is that standing wave current phase cannot be
used as the method of measuring the number of degrees. The
graphic at http://www.travstnd.GIF shows why. The standing
wave current phase is unchanging unless the monopole length
goes over 1/4WL.

Here's what you said earlier:
I said that Cecil's phase measurements agree with EZNEC (and generally
accepted theory) -- there should be almost no phase shift in the current
along the wire.

If there's no phase shift along the wire, why would you expect to
measure phase shift through a coil. After you made the above
posting, I thought you understood that - but apparently not.

I told you that your phase shift measurement was invalid a year ago
and it is just as invalid now as it was then. There is no phase information
contained in standing wave current phase. This is the basic misconception
that has resulted in invalid data reported by you.

What I measured was a current drop of 5.4% and no measurable phase shift
across the inductor.

But Roy, you used standing wave current phase to try to measure
the phase shift across the inductor. The standing wave current
phase is known to be unchanging in a wire. Why would you expect
it to change through a coil? As Gene Fuller says, the only phase
information in the standing wave current is in the magnitude
measurement. If the magnitude changed by 5.4%, the phase shift
was roughly arc-cos(1 - 0.054) = arc-cos(0.946) = ~19 degrees.

Please take a look at what EZNEC says about the standing wave
phase shift in 1/4WL of wire at:

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/travstnd.GIF

and please tell us again how you used a current with an unchanging
flat phase to try to measure the phase shift through a coil.

Well, it's been over a year now, and all I've seen is the same
unsupported theory with no evidence to contradict the contrary evidence
which has been presented.

No evidence? Even EZNEC says one cannot use standing wave current
phase to measure phase shift. I told you that fact over a year ago.
Your phase measurement methods are just as invalid today as they
were a year ago.

When a belief stays fixed in spite of both contradictory solid theory
and measurements, it fits into the category of religion, not science.

You are talking about your religious method of using the unchanging
standing wave current phase to try to measure a phase shift. EZNEC
says that is not a valid approach. Even Gene Fuller says there is zero
phase information in standing wave current wave and he generally
agrees with you.

Regarding the cos(kz)*cos(wt) term in a standing wave:

Gene Fuller, W4SZ wrote:
In a standing wave antenna problem, such as the one you describe, there
is no
remaining phase information. Any specific phase characteristics of the
traveling
waves died out when the startup transients died out.

Phase is gone. Kaput. Vanished. Cannot be recovered. Never to be seen
again.

The only "phase" remaining is the cos (kz) term, which is really an
amplitude
description, not a phase.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp