John Popelish wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
If you want to deny the existence
of forward and reflected current, be my guest.

I deny it. There is only current at a point, just as there is only
water jiggling around under a wave on the ocean.

There is only water juggling under two or more waves in the
ocean. Anyone who has stood on the beach has observed ocean
waves moving in opposite directions.

Your assertion is easy to disprove. In the following example,
the two sources have identical outputs and are phase locked.
They are each equipped with circulators and 50 ohm loads.

Source1---------------50 ohm coax------------------Source2

There is current flowing from Source1 heating up Source2's
load resistor to the tune of I1^2*R. There is current
flowing from Source2 heating up Source1's load resistor
to the tune of I2^2*R. Your denial seems to be a denial
of reality and more of a religious gut feeling than anything
else.

If you disconnect Source2 completely in the example above
the conditions will be the same except Source1 will be
dissipating its own power after a round trip to the open
end and back by the energy waves.

Incidentally, in the double source example above, which
direction is the standing wave current flowing? How could
its unchanging phase be used to measure the electrical
length of the coax?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

If you want to deny the existence
of forward and reflected current, be my guest.


I deny it. There is only current at a point, just as there is only
water jiggling around under a wave on the ocean.


There is only water juggling under two or more waves in the
ocean. Anyone who has stood on the beach has observed ocean
waves moving in opposite directions.

So waves can move in one or more directions while any bit of water
moves only locally. Same with charge.

Your assertion is easy to disprove. In the following example,
the two sources have identical outputs and are phase locked.
They are each equipped with circulators and 50 ohm loads.

Source1---------------50 ohm coax------------------Source2

Got it.

There is current flowing from Source1 heating up Source2's
load resistor to the tune of I1^2*R.

There is energy heating the load resistor. The current does not come
through the source. It is created at the end of the line by the
traveling energy wave. The charge that makes up the current passing
back and forth through the load to produce the heat does not come from
the source. It comes from the load itself and and the nearby part of
the line (within less than a 1/2 wavelength). That charge is caused
to move by the energy in the wave.

There is current
flowing from Source2 heating up Source1's load resistor
to the tune of I2^2*R.

No, for the same reason. The current is local to the end of the line
near the load. It is not current that travels the length of the line
from source to load, but the energy in the wave, just as the water
from the underwater landslide is not what washes up on the beach a
hundred miles away. Local water is pushed up on the beach by the
energy in the traveling wave that connects the landslide with the beach.

Your denial seems to be a denial
of reality and more of a religious gut feeling than anything
else.

My denial is a recognition that current does not connect the source to
the load, traveling energy waves do, however. Local current carries
that wave along the line.

If you disconnect Source2 completely in the example above
the conditions will be the same except Source1 will be
dissipating its own power after a round trip to the open
end and back by the energy waves.

Yes, its wave energy will return to the source and cause current local
to the source to pass through that load.

Incidentally, in the double source example above, which
direction is the standing wave current flowing?

At any point that is not a node, back and forth, every cycle. At
nodes, back and forth across the dielectric of the line.

How could
its unchanging phase be used to measure the electrical
length of the coax?

You measure the difference of the node positions, with and without the
coil. The shift in distance (in wavelengths) between the two nodes
that straddle the coil is the phase shift of the coil for each of the
traveling waves that make up the standing wave.

John Popelish wrote:
So waves can move in one or more directions while any bit of water moves
only locally. Same with charge.

My point exactly. I'm glad you agree.

There is energy heating the load resistor. The current does not come
through the source. It is created at the end of the line by the
traveling energy wave.

The H-field energy in the load originated in the source. Current
is directly proportional to the H-field in the EM wave. Let me
quote Ramo and Whinnery:

I = e^jwt/Z0[(V+)(e^-jwz/v) - (V-)(e^jwz/v)]

This is the *continuous* equation for source current at
z = 0 and load current at z = (distance). Essentially the
same equation is found in every reference on transmission
lines.

They don't say current is "created" at the load. They say
current is a *continuous single-valued function* between
source and load. Do you have a reference for your "creation"
of current?

That the H-field experiences a delay and transformation on its
way to the load doesn't mean that current is magically created
out of thin air at the load.

Hang some modulation on the current at the source. You will
measure that modulation arriving at the load in the form of
current exactly in accordance with the laws of physics
embodied in the distributed network model.

In a DC circuit, is the current also "created" at the load?

My denial is a recognition that current does not connect the source to
the load, ...

Then by all means, disconnect the source and keep the current.
Anything is possible in your mind. Just don't expect that to
work in reality.

How could
its unchanging phase be used to measure the electrical
length of the coax?

You measure the difference of the node positions, with and without the
coil. The shift in distance (in wavelengths) between the two nodes that
straddle the coil is the phase shift of the coil for each of the
traveling waves that make up the standing wave.

Someone needs to tell that to W7EL. I've tried to tell him but
instead of thanking me, he 'ploinked' me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

So waves can move in one or more directions while any bit of water
moves only locally. Same with charge.


My point exactly. I'm glad you agree.

We shall see.

There is energy heating the load resistor. The current does not come
through the source. It is created at the end of the line by the
traveling energy wave.


The H-field energy in the load originated in the source.

Yes.

Current is directly proportional to the H-field in the EM wave.

Yes.

Let me quote Ramo and Whinnery:

I = e^jwt/Z0[(V+)(e^-jwz/v) - (V-)(e^jwz/v)]

This is the *continuous* equation for source current at
z = 0 and load current at z = (distance). Essentially the
same equation is found in every reference on transmission
lines.

Yes. That equation describes the instantaneous current you would find
at any point as the wave pases through it.
It does not imply that the current at one point is the same current at
another point. It implies a continuity of the energy wave. At some
points along that wave, the current has some positive value (charge
going in the same direction as the wave. At other points, the current
has some negative value, indicating that charge is moving the opposite
way from the wave direction. The current is continuous only in that
there is a smooth, sinusoidal variation in its magnitude and direction
as you look along the wave path. but the current at one point is not
the current at some other point.

They don't say current is "created" at the load. They say
current is a *continuous single-valued function* between
source and load.

A current described by a continuous single valued function is not a
continuous current. The water that drowns people in a tidal wave in
California is a current dragged over the beach by an energy wave that
caused a continuous pattern on of local currents from the landslide in
Hawaii. But the actual water current (movement of water molecules
carrying the wave energy) did not flow continuously from Hawaii to
California. There are no Hawaiian fish carried to California by a
current of water that connected those two locations.

Do you have a reference for your "creation"
of current?

Only Maxwell's equations.

That the H-field experiences a delay and transformation on its
way to the load doesn't mean that current is magically created
out of thin air at the load.

Current is created and reversed (charge is sloshed back and forth) all
along the line, from source to load. Just as water is moved up and
down all along the path of a wave over the surface of the water. But
if you pick any bit of water, it does not follow the wave.

Hang some modulation on the current at the source. You will
measure that modulation arriving at the load in the form of
current exactly in accordance with the laws of physics
embodied in the distributed network model.

Yes, delayed by the speed of light in that medium.

In a DC circuit, is the current also "created" at the load?

No. DC has an infinite wavelength, so there is no significant
distance (in wavelength units) no matter how far apart the source and
load appear to be. If a battery near earth is connected to a load
near Alpha Centauri by a perfectly conducting loop, and you consider
the DC case (DC has an infinite duration), then there is no
significant distance between that source and load, so local current
connects them. Electrons that are pushed out of the battery will
reach the load and return to the battery. The definition of "local"
is wavelength dependent.

Back to the RF case: Do you imagine that electrons from the source
reach the load?

My denial is a recognition that current does not connect the source to
the load, ...


Then by all means, disconnect the source and keep the current.

Be happy to. For the amount of time it takes for a wave to pass the
full length of the line, energy will continue to be delivered to the
load (current will pass through it), even though the source has been
disconnected and causes no further current in the line.

Anything is possible in your mind. Just don't expect that to
work in reality.

I am doing my best to limit my mind to strictly what reality allows,
in this discussion.

How could
its unchanging phase be used to measure the electrical
length of the coax?


You measure the difference of the node positions, with and without the
coil. The shift in distance (in wavelengths) between the two nodes
that straddle the coil is the phase shift of the coil for each of the
traveling waves that make up the standing wave.


Someone needs to tell that to W7EL. I've tried to tell him but
instead of thanking me, he 'ploinked' me.

Perhaps he has lost interest in this thread.
Perhaps he is taking this topic personally.
Perhaps he enjoys yanking your chain.
Perhaps ...

What does any of that have to do with our conversation?

Your thoughts are in a rut.

John Popelish wrote:
The definition of "local" is wavelength dependent.

Since the reality in which we exist has been proven to be
non-local in nature, I'm wondering what is your point?

Back to the RF case: Do you imagine that electrons from the source
reach the load?

Maybe for DC. But depending upon the length of the transmission
line, probably not for HF RF. Is that a rhetorical question?

Someone needs to tell that to W7EL. I've tried to tell him but
instead of thanking me, he 'ploinked' me.

Perhaps he has lost interest in this thread.
Perhaps he is taking this topic personally.
Perhaps he enjoys yanking your chain.
Perhaps ...

.... he is afraid of losing his "expert" status?

What does any of that have to do with our conversation?

Everything. That's what this thread is all about. I will repeat:

Can the standing wave current phase, with its unchanging phase,
be used to measure the phase shift through a wire or coil?

That's the admittedly narrow present topic. The answer is either
'yes' or 'no'. After we answer that narrow technical question,
the discussion can procede.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

The definition of "local" is wavelength dependent.

Since the reality in which we exist has been proven to be
non-local in nature, I'm wondering what is your point?

Go back and ponder what I wrote.
Too much has been clipped for my elaboration to have any continuity.

Back to the RF case: Do you imagine that electrons from the source
reach the load?


Maybe for DC. But depending upon the length of the transmission
line, probably not for HF RF. Is that a rhetorical question?

It is a koan.

Someone needs to tell that to W7EL. I've tried to tell him but
instead of thanking me, he 'ploinked' me.


Perhaps he has lost interest in this thread.
Perhaps he is taking this topic personally.
Perhaps he enjoys yanking your chain.
Perhaps ...


... he is afraid of losing his "expert" status?

What does any of that have to do with our conversation?


Everything. That's what this thread is all about. I will repeat:

Can the standing wave current phase, with its unchanging phase,
be used to measure the phase shift through a wire or coil?

That's the admittedly narrow present topic. The answer is either
'yes' or 'no'. After we answer that narrow technical question,
the discussion can procede.

I have answered with my opinion on that subject many times, already.
I am trying to help you build your understanding of it, so you can
argue it more persuasively, and understand it more completely. I'm
doing it in public, to invite corrections from anyone who sees errors
in my thinking, and can explain them to me.

If you have no interest in anything but butting heads with the people
who have disagreed with you, then, please stop responding to my posts.

You have that choice.

John Popelish wrote:
Go back and ponder what I wrote.
Too much has been clipped for my elaboration to have any continuity.

Sorry, I don't respond well to primrose paths. What keeps you
from simply stating your point?

It is a koan.

Sorry, I don't respond well to "nonsensical questions". What
keeps you from simply stating your point?

Is it, if your point turns out to be wrong, you want me to
take the heat?

If you have no interest in anything but butting heads with the people
who have disagreed with you, then, please stop responding to my posts.

If you are into playing games, you are responding to the
wrong person. Try W8JI or W7EL instead.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp