Cecil,

As usual, you evaded the question, but this time you did not even do a
very slick job of evasion.

The question is what happens to the 75 degrees that was formerly
represented by the now-replaced wire. The coil may offer about 10 degrees.

I believe that Tom is stating that 75 is not equal to 10. Sounds like a
reasonable statement to me.

I don't know why you are so worried about the precise details of phase
measurements. Even your standard of precision, +/- 59%, won't make 10
equal to 75.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
I believe after a long series of EZNEC models and RRAA messages you came
to the conclusion that the 75 meter bugcatcher coil at 4 MHz had a
traveling wave phase shift of around 10 degrees.

Note that is not a measurement - that is what EZNEC reports but
let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that it is correct. W8JI
measured a 3nS, 4 degree phase shift in a coil twice as long with
43% more inductance. A bigger coil would obviously have a bigger
phase shift because of less current field linkage between the end
coils. So even if the phase shift through the coil is 10 degrees
as reported by EZNEC, W8JI's phase shift measurements were probably
off by *MORE THAN 200%* and that's why Tom is wrong.

This same coil resonated an antenna with a whip length of 10 feet or so.
A quarter wavelength at 4 MHz is around 60 feet. The phase shift that
could be attributed to the whip is therefore around 15 degrees. The
phase shift of the missing 50 feet of wire for a plain quarter wave
antenna would be around 75 degrees.

You are confused. Some time ago, I explained why a mobile antenna
may not be 90 degrees long at all. Did you understand that posting?
All we can say is that (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) is purely resistive.
We don't know how many degrees the reflected wave has traveled in
its round trip because there are too many variables.

So please stop the diversions. I have always said that the delay
through a coil *IS WHAT IT IS* but it is NOT zero and it is not the
3 nS measured by W8JI for that 100 uH coil. It is also not the near-zero
phase shift measured by W7EL using standing wave current phase as the
reference. You, yourself, implied that is an invalid measurement when
you told us there is no phase information in standing wave phase.

Seems to me you are making my argument for me and that your real
argument is with the other side. Have you told W7EL that standing
wave current phase cannot be used to measure the delay through a
coil?