Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
What we are saying that the loading coil appears to replace "missing"
electrical degrees of the radiator in order to make it resonant, ...

W8JI says we are correcting the power factor. Every EE knows that
correcting the power factor involves shifting the phase, i.e.
the coil cannot correct the power factor without providing a phase
shift.

The whole controversy is that "gurus" claim current doesn't drop across the
coil, while we say that it does, ...

That context is specifically inductively loaded mobile antennas
where the current decreases from source to tip of the antenna,
true for all electrical 1/4WL monopoles.

For other antennas, the current may DROP, the current may RISE,
or the current may STAY THE SAME magnitude depending upon where
the coil is installed in the standing wave system. In particular,
none of the "gurus" has even attempted to explain the RISE IN
CURRENT through the coil in the right hand system at:

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/test316.GIF

There have been about 10 examples proving the "gurus" wrong and
they simply chose to ignore those examples. They complain that
those examples are biased toward technical correctness. I say,
YES, THEY ARE. AREN'T THEY SUPPOSED TO BE TECHNICALLY CORRECT?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
(snip)
W8JI says we are correcting the power factor. Every EE knows that
correcting the power factor involves shifting the phase, i.e.
the coil cannot correct the power factor without providing a phase
shift.

Power factor correction shifts the relative phase of current with
respect to voltage. When talking about a phase shift, you have to be
careful to say what is being shifted relative to what else. There are
lots of possibilities.

A series inductor (a non real, ideal one) with absolutely no phase
shift or magnitude change in the current from one end to the other,
still produces a phase shift of input voltage to output voltage, so
the relative phase of voltage to current at the input is different
compared to the relative phase of voltage to current at the output. I
think this is the power factor correction effect W8JI is referring to.

Any real inductor does this, and also does some other things.

John Popelish wrote:
A series inductor (a non real, ideal one) with absolutely no phase shift
or magnitude change in the current from one end to the other, still
produces a phase shift of input voltage to output voltage, ...

If the voltage is leading the current, and the current
experiences no phase shift through the coil, doesn't that
imply that the voltage must travel faster than light and
indeed jump forward in time to catch up with the phase
of the current?

What does it mean to the E-fields and H-fields to say
the voltage is leading the current?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

A series inductor (a non real, ideal one) with absolutely no phase
shift or magnitude change in the current from one end to the other,
still produces a phase shift of input voltage to output voltage, ...


If the voltage is leading the current, and the current
experiences no phase shift through the coil, doesn't that
imply that the voltage must travel faster than light and
indeed jump forward in time to catch up with the phase
of the current?

What does it mean to the E-fields and H-fields to say
the voltage is leading the current?

It means that the current at both ends of the coil was delayed
(relative to its phase if the coil had not been there). It means that
there was a voltage difference across the ends of the coil that drove
that current through the coil.

John Popelish wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
What does it mean to the E-fields and H-fields to say
the voltage is leading the current?

It means that the current at both ends of the coil was delayed (relative
to its phase if the coil had not been there). It means that there was a
voltage difference across the ends of the coil that drove that current
through the coil.

In order to avoid any delay through the coil, you propose a delay
in the one inch of wire at the bottom of the coil? Does that really
make sense to you? How is this magic delay accomplished?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

What does it mean to the E-fields and H-fields to say
the voltage is leading the current?


It means that the current at both ends of the coil was delayed
(relative to its phase if the coil had not been there). It means that
there was a voltage difference across the ends of the coil that drove
that current through the coil.


In order to avoid any delay through the coil, you propose a delay
in the one inch of wire at the bottom of the coil? Does that really
make sense to you? How is this magic delay accomplished?

Exactly the way it is accomplished if you apply AC to an LC "L" low
pass filter that droves a resistor load. The short antenna acts as
the capacitor (in parallel with losses and radiation) in the circuit.
It is resonated with the series inductor so both the inductance and
capacitance cancel, so the source drives only the losses and
radiation. Power factor corrected.

If you don't believe me, simulate it with EZNEC. Connect a source to
a parallel combination of C and R. Record the phase of the current
with respect to the voltage (the current will lead). Then add a
series inductance that cancels the capacitance, and the current will
be delayed till it matches the phase of the applied voltage. Power
factor corrected.

John Popelish wrote:
If you don't believe me, simulate it with EZNEC. Connect a source to a
parallel combination of C and R. Record the phase of the current with
respect to the voltage (the current will lead). Then add a series
inductance that cancels the capacitance, and the current will be delayed
till it matches the phase of the applied voltage. Power factor corrected.

The "current will be delayed"? That cannot be, according to
W8JI and W7EL. They say there is no more delay through a 6"
coil than through a 6" wire. That's what the argument is all
about. Instead of the current being delayed, their voltage
jumps ahead in time at greater than the speed of light in
order to correct that power factor.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
What we are saying that the loading coil appears to replace "missing"
electrical degrees of the radiator in order to make it resonant, ...

W8JI says we are correcting the power factor. Every EE knows that
correcting the power factor involves shifting the phase, i.e.
the coil cannot correct the power factor without providing a phase
shift.

This is another area where you fall right square on your face.

An inductance changes the relationship between phase of voltage and
current, NOT current through the inductance from terminal to terminal.

You either know that and are intentionally avoiding it to save face, or
you need to brush up on basic theory.

The whole controversy is that "gurus" claim current doesn't drop across the
coil, while we say that it does, ...

Yuri again distorts fact. What everyone is saying is there can be a
current change, but it is not caused by standing waves or missing
antenna area. It is caused by displacement current, and so can have a
wide range of change in a given antenna.

Please write that down Yuri, and keep it in front of you so you don't
forget again!

73 Tom

wrote:
An inductance changes the relationship between phase of voltage and
current, NOT current through the inductance from terminal to terminal.

That's true only for a lumped inductance which doesn't exist
in reality.

Yuri again distorts fact. What everyone is saying is there can be a
current change, but it is not caused by standing waves or missing
antenna area. It is caused by displacement current, and so can have a
wide range of change in a given antenna.

In the graphic at: http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/test316.GIF
in the right hand configuration the current at the bottom
of the coil is 1.3 amps and the current at the top of the
coil is 2.1 amps.

Your explaination for more current at the top of the coil
than at the bottom is that 0.8 amps of displacement current
is jumping up from earth ground into the side of the coil
and flowing out the top?

Would you please describe that bit of magic in a little more
detail?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp