"Jim Kelley" wrote:

I'm pretty sure steady state isn't achieved in that short a time when
there are significant reflections on a line that long.

I'm glad you brought that up. Here is the EXCEL spread sheet for that same
signal generator equipped with an auto-tuner. You are right in that it takes
a longer time to achieve steady-state but everything becomes completely
clear after 30 seconds and the results are exactly the same (using a 100
watt
signal generator).

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/1secsgat.gif
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Very nice, Cecil. It would be also
useful to know how you obtained these
numbers.

73, ac6xg

Cecil Moore wrote:
"Jim Kelley" wrote:

I'm pretty sure steady state isn't achieved in that short a time when
there are significant reflections on a line that long.


I'm glad you brought that up. Here is the EXCEL spread sheet for that same
signal generator equipped with an auto-tuner. You are right in that it takes
a longer time to achieve steady-state but everything becomes completely
clear after 30 seconds and the results are exactly the same (using a 100
watt
signal generator).

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/1secsgat.gif
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

"Jim Kelley" wrote:
Very nice, Cecil. It would be also
useful to know how you obtained these
numbers.

The same way you obtained your numbers, Jim, when you said:

It follows that the initial reflection
would be 50 watts. When we assume that
everything is re-reflected from the
source, then at two seconds the forward
power at the front of the line would be
150 watts. At four seconds, 175 watts;
six seconds, 187.5; eight seconds,
193.75, and so on.

Please note that your numbers and mine agree exactly.
Also please note that I posted those numbers days ago
on qrz.com under a brainteaser thread. I have the EXCEL
file if you or anyone else would like to have it. (In a
one second long transmission line, when the load reflects
50 watts, it has essentially reflected 50 joules because
nothing changes during the following second.)

In fact, I'll present a challenge for you and everyone
else. In any one second long lossless transmission line
with any forward power and any reflected power, I defy
you to come up with an example where the number of joules
stored in the line is not equal to the forward power plus
the reflected power. Those joules are the joules sourced
by the generator that have not made it to the load. The
conservation of energy principle will have it no other
way. The laws of physics win once again.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
"Jim Kelley" wrote:
Very nice, Cecil. It would be also
useful to know how you obtained these
numbers.
The same way you obtained your numbers, Jim, when you said:

It follows that the initial reflection
would be 50 watts. When we assume that
everything is re-reflected from the
source, then at two seconds the forward
power at the front of the line would be
150 watts. At four seconds, 175 watts;
six seconds, 187.5; eight seconds,
193.75, and so on.
Please note that your numbers and mine agree exactly.
Also please note that I posted those numbers days ago
on qrz.com under a brainteaser thread. I have the EXCEL
file if you or anyone else would like to have it. (In a
one second long transmission line, when the load reflects
50 watts, it has essentially reflected 50 joules because
nothing changes during the following second.)

I'm not saying I think there's anything
wrong with your numbers. They're
actually very......precise. You wrote
something about a SG-AT autotuner, and
that could have a tendency to lead
someone to believe that you were
claiming to have made measurements. I
now understand that you didn't use an
SG-AT autotuner or make any
measurements. Thank you for clarifying
that point so eloquently.

In fact, I'll present a challenge for you and everyone
else.

Do you mean "everyone" - in the same
sense that Gary Oldman intended in "The
Professional"? :-)

In any one second long lossless transmission line
with any forward power and any reflected power, I defy
you to come up with an example where the number of joules
stored in the line is not equal to the forward power plus
the reflected power. Those joules are the joules sourced
by the generator that have not made it to the load. The
conservation of energy principle will have it no other
way. The laws of physics win once again.
--

Kinda melodramatic. I'm not sure who
you're arguing with. I gotta tell ya
though, it reminds me a little of one of
those guys who stands out on the street
corner shaking his fist and shouting at
traffic. Ever try to converse with one
of those guys?

73, ac6xg

"Jim Kelley" wrote:
I gotta tell ya
though, it reminds me a little of one of those guys who stands out on the street
corner shaking his fist and shouting at traffic.

Most of us have agreed to cut out the ad hominem attacks and non-
technical crappola. How about you joining us in that endeavor?

What is your technical objection to what I have posted?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp