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Noise level between two ant types
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Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Grounding might make it worse. Can you see why? 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Yes, but I still doubt it is corona. tom K0TAR |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Ha, ha! Nice joke, Cecil. I'll tell you what: if you can show that a group of students can tell whether it's raining or not solely by listening to the static on a radio with an outside antenna, I might begin to believe part of what you say. Otherwise, all your talk about carefully selected references is little more than a pathetically hollow attempt at self justification. For you to be right, Tom, every raindrop, every dust particle, and every snowflake in the world must have exactly the same charge as every antenna in the world. Please get real. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Ring wrote:
It especially shows up in the 300 inches a year lake effect snowfalls in northern NY. You can hear it on 6 and 2 quite well. These were DC grounded yagi antennas on all elements, so no corona available here, thank you. Also, K1RQG, who is net control of the EMENet on 14345 Sat and Sun mornings, had it so bad from rain last weekend that he couldn't copy most of the participants for a few minutes. And in a heavy rainstorm, I have doubts that it had much to do with corona. Tom, methinks we are having our legs pulled. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Grounding might make it worse. Can you see why? Quoting the 2000 ARRL Handbook: "Electrical fields under thunderstorms are sufficient to place many objects such as trees, hair, and antennas, into corona discharge." Of course, corona discharge exists and grounding an antenna might make it worse. But corona discharge is not all that exists. And in the absence of clouds, corona discharge is not likely to exist. Some other mechanism is obviously responsible for clear-sky charged-particle static. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
wrote:
The earth is one terminal, the air and things in the air (like clouds) have a charge difference. But that charge difference is NOT corona unless ionization occurs. If the charge difference doesn't reach the ionization threshold, it's not corona, by definition. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Are there any measures of voltage, current, joules or cole
slaw on antennas in this area? Do they experience the "noise"? Couldn't one connect a large capacitor circuit to store the charge and trickle it to a battery? ========================================== About 20 years ago I measured the charge produced on a 150-feet, long-wire, end-fed inverted-L antenna, using a DC, 0 to 50 micro-amp, moving coil meter. It was a warm afternoon. Temperature about 25 degrees C. There was a clear-blue, cloudless sky with a dry breeze. I assume very low atmospheric humidity otherwise the charge would leaked away over the antenna's insulators. There was a 300pF receiving-type, air-spaced tuning capacitor in series with the antenna. The other side of the capacitor was grounded via the transceiver which was not switched on. Every few seconds the capacitor was breaking down with an audible click. I could not see a spark. The plates were spaced about 1mm apart. It was the clicks which drew my attention to what was going on. The clicks slowly varied at a rate of 1 every few seconds to as many as 5 or 6 per second. I removed the capacitor and grounded the antenna through the micro-ammeter. The current varied around 10 to 20 microamps. After 5 or 10 minutes the effect gradually died away. I can't remember the current polarity. The transceiver had not been damaged. While making the connections with un-insulated aligator clips I received one or two mild shocks. All for the sake of science! Later on in the day, clouds built up and there was a thunder and rain storm. Electricity had been in the air all along. How it got there I can't imagine except that it may have been due to the friction of dry air blowing past the antenna wire. There was no precipitation unless it was plant pollen in the air. I don't suffer from hay fever or asthma. ---- Reg, G4FGQ |
Noise level between two ant types
Reg Edwards wrote:
There was no precipitation unless it was plant pollen in the air. I don't suffer from hay fever or asthma. Some 19th century doctors scoffed at the idea that there could be germs so small that they could see them. :-) Dust particles come in all sizes. Run some clear air through a HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air) filter and see what you get. There are always particles in the air. Sometimes they carry a charge. Air itself, is made up of particles. Quantum Electrodynamics tells us that charge transfer is impossible without particles. For Tom^2 to be correct, every dust particle that touches every antenna would have to carry the same identical charge as the antenna to keep charge from transferring. I would sure like to see them prove that assertion. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Ring wrote: The earth is one terminal, the air and things in the air (like clouds) have a charge difference. So this is an inverse form of corona? Where it comes from the surrounding charged air and particles (whatever type they are)? Because it's not the form I'm familiar with where the end of the antenna has a high voltage on it. I don't understand that Tom. What is "inverse corona"? Corona comes from a charge difference between two things. In this case it is NOT a charge difference between the earth and the antenna that you could eliminate by shorting the antenna to the earth, it is a difference between the air around the antenna and the earth and things connected to earth. The corona is leaping off into space around the antenna, not back towards earth. Tying it to earth will only make it worse, not better. I am genuinely asking a question here. If this is the way that noise occurs, I'd like to know the physical method involved. In every case I have looked at, and I have looked at dozens very carefully, it has been corna off the elements. That corna (and the resulting noise) occurs when there are particles, when there aren't, and at a rate different than the rate of particles hitting the antenna. It occurs with radomes and insulated elements and without, it occurs with grounded elements and without. It increases with increasing height, especially compared to surrounding objects. It is worse with protruding sharp points on the elements. It is worse when the charge difference between earth and sky is greatest, and less when the charge difference is less. It is terrible when lightning is almost ready to strike. It often vanishes totally for a brief period after a ground to cloud lightning strike. Of course a book, especially a handbook, might say it is something else. But then what they say should fit what occurs most of the time if what they say is mostly true. In my experience, and I probably have much more than most people with this after changing dozens of antennas to try to eliminate this problem, the idea the noise comes from an element "charging" or from particles hitting the antenna is largely incorrect. I think that idea comes from reading and believing wive's tales and rumors, and not thinking and experimenting for oneself. 73 Tom |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: The earth is one terminal, the air and things in the air (like clouds) have a charge difference. But that charge difference is NOT corona unless ionization occurs. If the charge difference doesn't reach the ionization threshold, it's not corona, by definition. Cecil, I am not entering this debate one way or the other. I do have a question, however. How do you determine when the ionization threshold has been reached? 73, Gene W4SZ |
Noise level between two ant types
wrote:
Corona comes from a charge difference between two things. No, that's not complete. A charge difference is necessary *but not sufficient* to cause corona. Corona comes from a charge difference between two things that causes ionization of the air around/between the two things. Corona, in the electrical sense that we are using the word here, doesn't exist and cannot exist without ionization. For this definition of the word, "corona", my unabridged dictionary says, "7. Electrical: see corona discharge". In the web reference I posted yesterday, two charged spheres arced before any corona was possible. Corona never existed in that experiment even though arcing took place. In every case I have looked at, and I have looked at dozens very carefully, it has been corna off the elements. That corna (and the resulting noise) occurs when there are particles, when there aren't, and at a rate different than the rate of particles hitting the antenna. Certainly white cars exist. That doesn't mean that all cars are white. It occurs with radomes and insulated elements and without, it occurs with grounded elements and without. Certainly corona exists. That doesn't mean the entire universe is ruled by some Corona God. It increases with increasing height, especially compared to surrounding objects. It is worse with protruding sharp points on the elements. For it to be defined as corona, it must ionize the air. How do you prove that the air has indeed been ionized? At night, a glow invariably accompanies corona ionization. Do your antennas glow at night? Mine usually don't. It is worse when the charge difference between earth and sky is greatest, and less when the charge difference is less. It is terrible when lightning is almost ready to strike. It often vanishes totally for a brief period after a ground to cloud lightning strike. "It" being corona, not clear-sky, dry-air, charged-particle problems. Everyone agrees that corona exists, Tom. We just disagree with you that corona is all that can cause a charge. Is the 10 volt charge on a capacitor caused by corona? Of course a book, especially a handbook, might say it is something else. But then what they say should fit what occurs most of the time if what they say is mostly true. Most of the time doesn't cut it, Tom. All it takes is one example to the contrary to prove your all-inclusive assertions to be false. Not all cars are white just because you have never seen a colored car. In my experience, and I probably have much more than most people with this after changing dozens of antennas to try to eliminate this problem, the idea the noise comes from an element "charging" or from particles hitting the antenna is largely incorrect. That may be true, but the question is: Do charged particles hitting an antenna ever cause static discharge problems. If it has ever occurred even once in history of this planet, your assertions are wrong. It occurred in my antenna system multiple times while I was living in the Arizona desert. There was not a cloud in the entire state at some of those times. According to the web source I posted yesterday, arcing can completely eliminate corona because the arcing occurs *before* the corona can possibly occur. The example given was between two spherical electrodes. The corona example involved a pointed electrode which caused corona to occur before the arc. I think that idea comes from reading and believing wive's tales and rumors, and not thinking and experimenting for oneself. I think you should stop worshiping the Corona God, go out to Queen Creek, AZ and perform your experiments. Please prove that every dust particle carries a charge identical to the charge on every antenna. You remind me of the host of scientists who believed that the earth was never bombarded by meteors and comets because they couldn't see more than a handful of impact craters. You can run the experiment for yourself, Tom. Set up an inverted-V dipole and discharge a capacitor at one end between one element and a ground plane. Guaranteed, you will hear the noise in an RF receiver when there's no sign of corona anywhere. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
For Tom^2 to be correct, every dust particle that touches every antenna would have to carry the same identical charge as the antenna to keep charge from transferring. I would sure like to see them prove that assertion. Cecil, More fractured physics. If every interaction between objects requires that somehow the charge is transferred to keep things "identical", how did those nasty dust particles get charged in the first place? I am not arguing about antenna noise. I am questioning your misuse of physics. There are no charge equalization laws. 73, Gene W4SZ |
Noise level between two ant types
Gene Fuller wrote:
I am not entering this debate one way or the other. I do have a question, however. How do you determine when the ionization threshold has been reached? Corona invariably causes a glow at night. I have witnessed such a glow but not very often. I came across a calculation of the ionization threshold in volts yesterday while on the web. I don't remember the exact figure but it was in the thousands of volts for average air conditions and varied with the geometry of the conductor. But the point is that, by definition, it is not corona until ionization occurs. A wire in the air during high wind conditions can accumulate charge from the charged particles but until it accumulates enough charge to cause ionization of the air, it is NOT corona, by definition. W8JI is confusing cause and effect. The transfer of charge from wind-driven charged particles can cause localized corona but that's just an effect, NOT a cause. And if the antenna wire is not allowed to reach the air ionization level, charge may accumulate but corona will not occur. Under thunderclouds, corona often occurs. I wouldn't try to speculate whether rain or snow noise is caused by charged particles or corona. But I will certainly speculate that in a state without a cloud in the sky, a charge can be deposited on an antenna by charged particles. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote: W8JI is confusing cause and effect. .....and Cecil is confusing himself. |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote: Gene Fuller wrote: I am not entering this debate one way or the other. I do have a question, however. How do you determine when the ionization threshold has been reached? Corona invariably causes a glow at night. I have witnessed such a glow but not very often. I came across a calculation of the ionization threshold in volts yesterday while on the web. I don't remember the exact figure but it was in the thousands of volts for average air conditions and varied with the geometry of the conductor. How many systems have you looked at Cecil where you were right next to the antenna while this was going on? More than I have or many times less? My bet is many times less. Probably none. I'd bet you never were on a 300 foot or taller tower or on the roof of a building, and I'd also bet you never had multiple antennas of various tyoes to compare. I'd wager all your data comes from what you picture in your mind. 73 Tom |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil,
First things first. Ionization threshold has nothing to do with "voltage". It has everything to do with field strength. This topic has been studied extensively for centuries. Don't believe everything you find on the web, especially if it requires "glow-in-the-dark" or "thousands of volts" as a determinant for ionization. 73, Gene W4SZ Cecil Moore wrote: Gene Fuller wrote: I am not entering this debate one way or the other. I do have a question, however. How do you determine when the ionization threshold has been reached? Corona invariably causes a glow at night. I have witnessed such a glow but not very often. I came across a calculation of the ionization threshold in volts yesterday while on the web. I don't remember the exact figure but it was in the thousands of volts for average air conditions and varied with the geometry of the conductor. But the point is that, by definition, it is not corona until ionization occurs. A wire in the air during high wind conditions can accumulate charge from the charged particles but until it accumulates enough charge to cause ionization of the air, it is NOT corona, by definition. W8JI is confusing cause and effect. The transfer of charge from wind-driven charged particles can cause localized corona but that's just an effect, NOT a cause. And if the antenna wire is not allowed to reach the air ionization level, charge may accumulate but corona will not occur. Under thunderclouds, corona often occurs. I wouldn't try to speculate whether rain or snow noise is caused by charged particles or corona. But I will certainly speculate that in a state without a cloud in the sky, a charge can be deposited on an antenna by charged particles. |
Noise level between two ant types
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Noise level between two ant types
wrote:
How many systems have you looked at Cecil where you were right next to the antenna while this was going on? I don't know exactly how many. All it takes to prove you wrong is a single one. If you simply admit that at one time in the history of man, a charge accumulated on an antenna without the presence of corona, I will be satisfied. When you assert that 100% of all charged up antennas is caused by corona, it doesn't matter if you are right 99.99% of the time. Logically, you are 100% wrong if 0.01% of charged up antennas do not involve corona. When there is not a cloud over the entire state of Arizona, charged up antennas in the dry, dusty, windy Arizona desert are not caused by corona. More than I have or many times less? I multiply 6 times 7 once and get 42. You multiply 6 times 7 ten times and get 56. Do you really think you are right? The laws of physics are not supposed to be the results of how many flawed experiments are run. Charged particles can exist in the absence of corona. Like the cave men did, rub some amber against some wool and then touch it to your dipole. That pop you hear is NOT corona. When a charged particle touches a reference bare antenna wire, it transfers part of its charge to the antenna. You have already agreed with that. The rest is simple physics. Exactly how do you prove that all charged up antennas are causing ionization? What instrument did you use to measure all that ionization? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
Reg Edwards wrote: There was no precipitation unless it was plant pollen in the air. I don't suffer from hay fever or asthma. Some 19th century doctors scoffed at the idea that there could be germs so small that they could see them. :-) Dust particles come in all sizes. Run some clear air through a HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air) filter and see what you get. There are always particles in the air. Sometimes they carry a charge. Air itself, is made up of particles. Quantum Electrodynamics tells us that charge transfer is impossible without particles. For Tom^2 to be correct, every dust particle that touches every antenna would have to carry the same identical charge as the antenna to keep charge from transferring. I would sure like to see them prove that assertion. Cecil, if you're too chicken to do the experiment, just say so, I'll understand. Also, quit misrepresenting my ideas. That's an old Oakie debating trick that won't fly on this newsgroup. The first thing you have to prove is that a charged particle striking your antenna makes an audible noise in your receiver. Just because a charged particle strikes your antenna doesn't mean you can hear it. I have an idea. Borrow a big, old, awkward Texas kid from one of your neighbors. Wash his head and blow dry his hair to get all the moisture out. Now, have him stand out at your vertical and run a comb through his hair. After the comb is charged, have him touch it to the antenna while you listen to your radio inside the shack. See if you can hear an audible click whenever the comb discharges into the antenna. If you can hear something, it at least means that charged particles can make a noise. If you can't,you have to rethink your position. I know you go all gun shy and hysterical whenever someone mentions you do an experiment, but it wouldn't kill you to try _something_ in order to prove your point. You might learn something, too. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Gene Fuller wrote:
Ionization threshold has nothing to do with "voltage". It has everything to do with field strength. Of course, static field strength implies energy which is proportional to volts squared. Here's a quote from: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/1999/novdec/mrstatic.html "A corona discharge is also called a silent discharge. It may be maintained as long as the breakdown *field strength* is exceeded in some region—that is, as long as the *voltage* of the electrode or the *charge density* of the charged insulator is high enough." Just before the field strength is high enough to cause ionization, the voltage between the electrodes can be measured. I don't see how ionization could occur at zero volts which you seem to imply is a possibility. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: W8JI is confusing cause and effect. ....and Cecil is confusing himself. Charged dust particles can *cause* corona but they don't necessarily cause corona. If the air is not ionized, corona is impossible. The air always has ions in it. It's one of the mechanisms by which the giant spherical capacitor called "the Earth" discharges. Quit changing the subject, Cecil. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Cecil, if you're too chicken to do the experiment, just say so, I'll understand. I did the experiment and posted how to do it. Here it is again: Bring one end of a dipole down close to the system ground rod. Charge up a capacitor to 12v. Discharge the cap between the end of the dipole and the ground rod. That pop you hear is NOT corona. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
The air always has ions in it. I hope you understand the difference between isolated ions existing in the air and the air being ionized into a conducting path. Isolated ions is not corona. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote: Tom Donaly wrote: Cecil, if you're too chicken to do the experiment, just say so, I'll understand. I did the experiment and posted how to do it. Here it is again: Bring one end of a dipole down close to the system ground rod. Charge up a capacitor to 12v. Discharge the cap between the end of the dipole and the ground rod. That pop you hear is NOT corona. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Hmmm. 10uF capacitor charged to 12 volts = dust particle How much charge can a dust particle hold as it moves through the air Cecil? Does it eventually assume the potential of the air? Can I substitute a dust particle for a 1pF capacitor? For a 10pF capacitor? For ten farads? Why would anyone tgink that proves anything? On the other hand I've been a few feet away from antennas in an undisturbed environment, and I've seen and heard the corna many times. |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote: Ionization threshold has nothing to do with "voltage". It has everything to do with field strength. Of course, static field strength implies energy which is proportional to volts squared. Here's a quote from: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/1999/novdec/mrstatic.html "A corona discharge is also called a silent discharge. It may be maintained as long as the breakdown *field strength* is exceeded in some region—that is, as long as the *voltage* of the electrode or the *charge density* of the charged insulator is high enough." Just before the field strength is high enough to cause ionization, the voltage between the electrodes can be measured. I don't see how ionization could occur at zero volts which you seem to imply is a possibility. Cecil, Of course, static field strength implies energy which is proportional to volts squared. BZZZZT! More fractured physics. Here's a hint. Voltage is often poorly defined since it requires a reference. Very few physical phenomena depend on voltage as a primary parameter. I don't see how ionization could occur at zero volts which you seem to imply is a possibility. Huh?? Did I say that? 73, Gene W4SZ |
Noise level between two ant types
wrote:
10uF capacitor charged to 12 volts = dust particle Nope, 1uF cap charged to 12 volts = charge. One charged dust particle = charge. I've never said I have ever heard a single particle discharge. It was someone else who said that. I agree with the 2000 ARRL Handbook when they said it was "almost continuous". I have certainly heard that "hash-type noise" get worse with wind speed. I wish I had made S-meter measurements. "Precipitation static is an almost continuous hash-type noise that often accompanies various kinds of precipitation, including snowfall. Precipitation static is caused by rain drops, snowflakes or even *wind-blown dust*, transferring a small electrical charge on contact with an antenna." But what I am saying certainly makes a lot more sense than your implication that all particles have exactly the same charge as all antennas. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Gene Fuller wrote:
Voltage is often poorly defined since it requires a reference. Yes, and the web page reference provided a well defined reference between two electrodes with known capacitance. There is *always* a relationship between electric field strength and voltage. I disagree that they are unrelated as you implied. I don't see how ionization could occur at zero volts which you seem to imply is a possibility. Huh?? Did I say that? No, but you implied it when you said "ionization threshold has *nothing* to do with voltage". Nothing is zero so you implied an ionization threshold is completely unrelated and independent of volts. Do you want to amend that statement? Maybe: "The relationship between field strength and voltage is sometimes difficult to determine."? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
"Reg Edwards" wrote About 20 years ago I measured the charge produced on a 150-feet, long-wire, end-fed inverted-L antenna, using a DC, 0 to 50 micro-amp, moving coil meter. ====================================== The VLF capacitance to ground of the 30-feet high antenna is about 250 pico-farads. Total capacitance including the air-spaced tuning capacitor = 550 pico-farads. Assuming a capacitor breakdown voltage of 2000 volts and a breakdown rate of once per second, then leakage over several antenna insulators must have been about 1800 megohms. A not unreasonable figure. It's surprising what can be deduced from a simple but fundamental relationship such as - Q = C * V = I * T where Q = capacitor charge in Coulombs, C = Farads, V = volts, I = amps, T = seconds. It's only arithmetic. ;o) You could now estimate the receiver noise level in dBm, due to precipitation of rain drops of given average diameter, on an antenna at a rate of N drops per second, each drop charged up to a potential of V volts relative to ground. You would, of course, have to take receiver bandwidth and a lot of other things into account. So it's probably not worth the time and trouble. ---- Reg. |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote: Cecil, if you're too chicken to do the experiment, just say so, I'll understand. I did the experiment and posted how to do it. Here it is again: Bring one end of a dipole down close to the system ground rod. Charge up a capacitor to 12v. Discharge the cap between the end of the dipole and the ground rod. That pop you hear is NOT corona. Most raindrops don't have a little plate and a wire to ground. In order to mimic a raindrop, Cecil, you'd have to leave the ground terminal of your capacitor floating. Do that and tell me what you hear. Anyway, you're still not addressing the real issue: can you tell whether or not it's raining solely by listening to the static noise on your antenna? 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote: The air always has ions in it. I hope you understand the difference between isolated ions existing in the air and the air being ionized into a conducting path. Isolated ions is not corona. Nevertheless, air is in a constant state of conduction. It may only be picoamps per square meter but it still exists and it's what causes the earth to be a lousy capacitor. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote: Voltage is often poorly defined since it requires a reference. Yes, and the web page reference provided a well defined reference between two electrodes with known capacitance. There is *always* a relationship between electric field strength and voltage. I disagree that they are unrelated as you implied. I don't see how ionization could occur at zero volts which you seem to imply is a possibility. Huh?? Did I say that? No, but you implied it when you said "ionization threshold has *nothing* to do with voltage". Nothing is zero so you implied an ionization threshold is completely unrelated and independent of volts. Do you want to amend that statement? Maybe: "The relationship between field strength and voltage is sometimes difficult to determine."? If I remember right, your "Dr. Static" thought that you can't have a voltage without the presence of a conductor. You ought to read what these guys write before you quote them. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Gene Fuller wrote:
If every interaction between objects requires that somehow the charge is transferred to keep things "identical", how did those nasty dust particles get charged in the first place? Huh? It is you who says the dust particles carry exactly the same charge as the antenna they are encountering. Otherwise, there is current flow in the antenna system which you deny. I am not arguing about antenna noise. I am questioning your misuse of physics. There are no charge equalization laws. Huh? Place a charge on a wire. Doesn't current flow in both directions until the charge is equalized throughout the conductor? Did my college professors lie to me? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Anyway, you're still not addressing the real issue: can you tell whether or not it's raining solely by listening to the static noise on your antenna? No, but in Queen Creek, AZ, I could look outside and not see a cloud in sight. I could look at the weather radar and see there wasn't a cloud over the entire state of Arizona. I probably could be convinced that static electricity during rain or snow was corona if I had not experienced the clear-sky charged-particle effect in Arizona. I suspect that neither you nor W8JI has ever experienced the clear-sky charged-particle effect and therefore deny its existence. I know better from my own personal experience as do others. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote: I've never said I have ever heard a single particle discharge. It was someone else who said that. I agree with the 2000 ARRL Handbook when they said it was "almost continuous". I have certainly heard that "hash-type noise" get worse with wind speed. I wish I had made S-meter measurements. Were having a 'Santa Ana' wind today in So Cal. High ion concentration. S9+ noise levels on the HF bands. Happens almost every time we have a 'Santa Ana' condition. 73, ac6xg |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Nevertheless, air is in a constant state of conduction. Nevertheless, that is *NOT* corona. You will be glad to hear that Madisonville, TX is experiencing rather severe corona effects today. The knife switches that I use to vary the length of my transmission line are snap, cracklin', and poppin'. In this high humidity region of Texas, I am not sure that charged-particle static ever occurs. However, I am absolutely sure that it sometimes occurs in Queen Creek, AZ, where I lived for 11 years. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: I've never said I have ever heard a single particle discharge. It was someone else who said that. I agree with the 2000 ARRL Handbook when they said it was "almost continuous". I have certainly heard that "hash-type noise" get worse with wind speed. I wish I had made S-meter measurements. Were having a 'Santa Ana' wind today in So Cal. High ion concentration. S9+ noise levels on the HF bands. Happens almost every time we have a 'Santa Ana' condition. 73, ac6xg Hot, dry air off the desert. Just like a clothes dryer. You guys are suffering from static cling. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Noise level between two ant types
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: I've never said I have ever heard a single particle discharge. It was someone else who said that. I agree with the 2000 ARRL Handbook when they said it was "almost continuous". I have certainly heard that "hash-type noise" get worse with wind speed. I wish I had made S-meter measurements. Were having a 'Santa Ana' wind today in So Cal. High ion concentration. S9+ noise levels on the HF bands. Happens almost every time we have a 'Santa Ana' condition. So Jim, would you say that's corona discharge or dry-air charged-particle problems? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Tom Donaly wrote:
Hot, dry air off the desert. Just like a clothes dryer. You guys are suffering from static cling. "Nevertheless", unrelated to corona. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
Noise level between two ant types
Jim Kelley wrote:
Were having a 'Santa Ana' wind today in So Cal. High ion concentration. S9+ noise levels on the HF bands. Happens almost every time we have a 'Santa Ana' condition. Jim, I forgot to ask. Do you have a bare-wire dipole with no DC connection between the elements? If so, does the coax connector ever arc when you disconnect it from your system? The first time I encountered this phenomenon in Arizona, my G5RV coax connector was arcing while connected to my IC-745. I disconnected the coax from my transceiver and tossed it on the floor. It woke me up arcing and scorching my carpet. Shorting the coax conductors cured the arcing problem. It was a clear starry night with the wind blowing about 30 mph. I have a hard time diagnosing that as a corona problem. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
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