Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:

Why didn't you respond to the pictures I drew for you?

1.) You say the particles make the noise as each individual particle
hits the antenna.

Yes, and you have agreed with all the steps leading up to that
noise pulse flowing through the link. It is just simple physics.
I notice you are not responding to any of the technical content
of my posting are are continuing to deliberately obfuscate
something I said earlier about aural arcing noise.

2.) You say grounding the antenna eliminates that noise.

Grounding the antenna eliminated the ***AURAL*** arcing noise
that was keeping me awake at night and scorching my rug when
the transceiver was powered down and disconnected from the
antenna. How many times do I have to explain that to you?

But I have no doubt that if the transceiver had been turned
on, the arcing across the transceiver connector would have
caused RF noise if not failure. And I also have no doubt that
grounding both transmission line conductors would have
eliminated the arcing and thus reduced the RF noise heard
by the receiver.

Your style of argument is making you look stupid.

There is an obvious conflict in those two ideas.

Only in your mind, Tom. Please cease and desist with the
obfuscation and try to follow your own advice from another
newsgroup where you said nobody knows everything (presumably
including you) and everyone is capable of learning something
new (presumably including you). It's past time for you to
learn about dry-air wind-driven charged-particle noise.

Quantum Electrodynamics will tell you that even corona noise
is caused by charged particles.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Bob Miller wrote:
I can't recall seeing any gap-sparking here in the San Antonio area.
When it's hot, it's usually pretty humid, too.

If you have an o'scope, please hang it across the
transmission line wires during your next dust storm
and report the results compared to a calm day.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Why didn't you respond to the pictures I drew for you?

Because you have unlimited time to go off into hunderds of a tangents.
I still work 50-60 hours a week.

1.) You say the particles make the noise as each individual particle
hits the antenna.

Yes, and you have agreed with all the steps leading up to that
noise pulse flowing through the link. It is just simple physics.
I notice you are not responding to any of the technical content
of my posting are are continuing to deliberately obfuscate
something I said earlier about aural arcing noise.

I must have missed it. With any AURAL noise there is alos a spark, and
that spark is accompanied by electrical noise or component damage.

My understanding was you said the HF noise in the receiver was caused
by the random particles actually striking the antenna. If so, grounding
makes no difference.

2.) You say grounding the antenna eliminates that noise.

Grounding the antenna eliminated the ***AURAL*** arcing noise
that was keeping me awake at night and scorching my rug when
the transceiver was powered down and disconnected from the
antenna. How many times do I have to explain that to you?

Along with any aural noise is an arc, along with any arc is electrical
noise. None of that matters however. As I understand it you said the HF
noise was from particles hitting the antenna. If so, grounding the
antenna could only increase the voltage delta between the particles and
the antenna.

If you disagree, explain why.

But I have no doubt that if the transceiver had been turned
on, the arcing across the transceiver connector would have
caused RF noise if not failure. And I also have no doubt that
grounding both transmission line conductors would have
eliminated the arcing and thus reduced the RF noise heard
by the receiver.

If the noise was a slow popping noise caused by a series component
breaking down, I agree. If the noise was what is commonly reffered to
as P-static, the sizzling hissing or whining noise with almost a
musical note, I disagree.

Your style of argument is making you look stupid.

Calling people stupid makes you look like you cannot have a mature
discussion. Why not act mature?

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
I must have missed it.

:-) Sure you did even after I said it half a dozen times. :-)
You have talked about my transmission line laying on the
rug scorching it so you could not possibly have "missed it".

With any AURAL noise there is always a spark, and
that spark is accompanied by electrical noise or component damage.

Yes, I have said *many* times that my transceiver's power was
off and it was unplugged from the transmission line. You know
the transmission line was laying on my rug because you have
talked about that before.

My understanding was you said the HF noise in the receiver was caused
by the random particles actually striking the antenna. If so, grounding
makes no difference.

I agree and never said otherwise. However, since you
insist, below I indicate how grounding would have made
a difference had I responded in a different way.

If you disagree, explain why.

Let's say that I was stupid enough not to disconnect my
transceiver when I heard the arcing at the coax input and
instead turned the transceiver on. Let's say it didn't
suffer failure.

Would you agree that I would hear RF noise in the transceiver
every time the coax connector arced?

Would you agree that if I shorted the center conductor to
ground that since the outer conductor was already grounded,
the RF noise in the transceiver would decrease?

Why not act mature?

It was you who once again regressed to your terrible-twos
infantile omniscient stage and just couldn't resist
misquoting me. Please don't do that again.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Perhaps I'm not pedantic enough to enjoy the courtesy of your reply. If
your rug is scorched...how much current is there?

My simple question was: Is this a novel way to create a trickle charger?
(When TCVR is d/c'd, of course)

Anyone care to respond?

Otherwise, I'll just lurk and observe the "drama" between you two.

John
AB8WH

Noise level between two ant types
 

jawod wrote:
Perhaps I'm not pedantic enough to enjoy the courtesy of your reply.

I just checked back to your last posting to this thread.
Here's what it said:

Error!
newsgroup server responded: Bad article number
Perhaps the article has expired
(272761)

That's rather difficult to reply to.

My simple question was: Is this a novel way to create a trickle charger?

You could get some charge out of it but I just don't know how
many joules per unit time. Perhaps someone out there in the
desert could perform an experiment.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Here's something similar Cecil:

I drove at 65 mph through a limited (about 1 mile wide) wind driven dust
storm from an Iowa corn field during a drought. I was watching my S-meter on
a 2m radio at the time (in the car). It slowly built up and eventually
pinned (simultaneously, AM radio stations suffered the static build up and
were blotted out. By the time I got through the mini-dust storm, the PIN
diode antenna switching in the 2m radio had been destroyed. It was not
raining. It was hot and dry, and you can imagine the dust particle count.

I don't know the mechanics (as you people are disputing), but there was no
doubt a significant build up and eventual discharge (I heard it on the AM
radio) and the dust in the wind (thankyou Kansas), caused it, IMO.

Another idiosyncratic report:

40m dipole up 30'. Middle of winter, very heavy wet snow.

I could draw an arc off the end of the coax connector about an inch long.
The rate of build/up and then discharge (how long it took between SNAPS)
correlated very nicely with the rate of snowfall. The harder it snowed, the
more rapidly the arc would happen, the more slowly it snowed, the longer in
between arcing from the connector.

Both of these, I would call "precip static"...one was dust, the other was
snow. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out the mechanism.

73,

....hasan, N0AN
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
. com...
wrote:
I must have missed it.

:-) Sure you did even after I said it half a dozen times. :-)
You have talked about my transmission line laying on the
rug scorching it so you could not possibly have "missed it".

With any AURAL noise there is always a spark, and
that spark is accompanied by electrical noise or component damage.

Yes, I have said *many* times that my transceiver's power was
off and it was unplugged from the transmission line. You know
the transmission line was laying on my rug because you have
talked about that before.

My understanding was you said the HF noise in the receiver was caused
by the random particles actually striking the antenna. If so, grounding
makes no difference.

I agree and never said otherwise. However, since you
insist, below I indicate how grounding would have made
a difference had I responded in a different way.

If you disagree, explain why.

Let's say that I was stupid enough not to disconnect my
transceiver when I heard the arcing at the coax input and
instead turned the transceiver on. Let's say it didn't
suffer failure.

Would you agree that I would hear RF noise in the transceiver
every time the coax connector arced?

Would you agree that if I shorted the center conductor to
ground that since the outer conductor was already grounded,
the RF noise in the transceiver would decrease?

Why not act mature?

It was you who once again regressed to your terrible-twos
infantile omniscient stage and just couldn't resist
misquoting me. Please don't do that again.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

:-) Sure you did even after I said it half a dozen times. :-)
You have talked about my transmission line laying on the
rug scorching it so you could not possibly have "missed it".

I did NOT. You must have confused me with someone else.

Would you agree that I would hear RF noise in the transceiver
every time the coax connector arced?

Absolutely.

Would you agree that if I shorted the center conductor to
ground that since the outer conductor was already grounded,
the RF noise in the transceiver would decrease?

Absolutely. So would the signals. S/N ratio would not change.

Noise level between two ant types
 

I could draw an arc off the end of the coax connector about an inch long.
The rate of build/up and then discharge (how long it took between SNAPS)
correlated very nicely with the rate of snowfall. The harder it snowed, the
more rapidly the arc would happen, the more slowly it snowed, the longer in
between arcing from the connector.

Both of these, I would call "precip static"...one was dust, the other was
snow. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out the mechanism.

Hasan,

I think the problem here is there are two things at work.

The first is a slow (compared to radio frequencies) build up of charge
in an antenna that eventually breaks down a dielectric. I' like many
people, have seen that many times.
As a matter of fact that is common trigger for relay failures or SWR
detector failures in systems without a leak impedance that leaks off
charge faster than it builds.

The second is what is commonly called P-static. As described earlier
we had severe problems on tall tower and on the roofs of buildings.
This is a noise that starts as a slow rapid hissing or buzzing that
quickly builds almost to a musical tone as the weather gets more
severe. This is the mechanisim I disagree with being caused by
particles striking the antenna. The reason I disagree was clearly
stated:

1.) Taller structures are affected much more than lower ones that are
in the same weather

2.) Even one exposed protruding point seems to be the cause, since I
could cover that point in Station Master antennas and make it go away,
and it would go away by adding a taller blunt ended structure near the
affected antennas.

3.) With identical antennas stacked on a single tower, the uppermost
antenna is by far the most affected.

4.) I could get near the antennas and actually hear the accoustical
noise that matched the noise on repeaters and actually see the corna
ball.

....and on and on.

Cecil then proposed, if I am not mistaken, that P-static was caused by
particles striking the antenna, each one making a noise as it
discharged into the antenna, and that noise could be reduced by
grounding the element at DC. That is really the only point I disageed
with.

No one should even have a tall antenna or large antenna or any antenna
that is subject to high levels of charge that does not have a leakage
path to ground. That's just a given. But the idea a closed loop is
somehow quieter than an open element that also has a leakage path makes
no sense at all (especially when we are talking about noise from each
particle) unless the antenna is:

1.) Lower
2.) More blunt
3.) Has less protruding ends

My reasoning is the same number of charges hits each antenna, and the
greater the potential difference between those changes and the antenna
the greater the discharge power transfer to the antenna will be. So if
the antenna were allowed to float to avarage potential of space around
the antenna the noise from any energy transfer would actually be less.

This excludes the big pop when a dielectric breaks down.

My mobile antenna is matched by a shunt inductor, and that inductor
prevents the coax from charging up with dc. However, that inductor does
NOT make the antenna any more useful in weather like you described. It
is every bit as noisy, absent the sporatic loud pops when a dielectric
breaks down.

Say I leak that antenna with a 20K resistor, and replace that resistor
with a nearly zero ohm inductor that has high reactance at the
operating frequency. There will be no noise change.

The same applies to repeater antennas. We could use folded dipole
elements, elements in fiberglass radomes, and so on. The only thing
that helped was a blunter element or making the antenna lower in
relation to some other object on the roof.

We looked at dozens of systems hunderds of times, because no one wants
communications to vanish in inclement weather. We never found a "dc
grounded antenna" any help at all, although some leakage path probably
would have stopped the diode failure you had...but not the noise.

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

hasan schiers wrote:
Both of these, I would call "precip static"...one was dust, the other was
snow. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out the mechanism.

The behavior of charged particles has been understood for
a century by most rational engineers and physicists.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp