Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
Would you agree that if I shorted the center conductor to
ground that since the outer conductor was already grounded,
the RF noise in the transceiver would decrease?

Absolutely. So would the signals. S/N ratio would not change.

There was nothing about signals being present in the previous
discussion and this is the first time signals or S/N ratio have
even been mentioned. Signals and/or S/N ratios are therefore
irrelevant to the present discussion.

W8JI previously wrote:
My understanding was you said the HF noise in the receiver was caused
by the random particles actually striking the antenna. If so, grounding
makes no difference.

You just admitted above that shorting the transmission line
to ground changes the noise level, i.e. indeed does make a
difference. You have agreed with every leading question that
I have asked you so it seems we are in agreement.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
Cecil then proposed, if I am not mistaken, that P-static was caused by
particles striking the antenna, each one making a noise as it
discharged into the antenna, and that noise could be reduced by
grounding the element at DC. That is really the only point I disageed
with.

I'm glad you now agree with it. Grounding the feedline
obviously reduces everything, including noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
You just admitted above that shorting the transmission line
to ground changes the noise level, i.e. indeed does make a
difference. You have agreed with every leading question that
I have asked you so it seems we are in agreement.

Cecil,

When you short ANY transmission line center to ground and the shield is
grounded, which is what you asked, ALL signal levels will decrease.
They will all go to zero if it is a pefect short.

You have a very strange way of defining noise decreases! If I unplug
the receiver or place it on standby, noise will decrease also. So will
turning off the RF amplifier. So will adding an attenuator.

If shorting the center to shield making noise go away and ignoring the
fact it also makes the signal go away makes you feel like you have
proven something, then I can't go further. That's about the silliest
thing I've ever heard as a logical arguement!

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
When you short ANY transmission line center to ground and the shield is
grounded, which is what you asked, ALL signal levels will decrease.
They will all go to zero if it is a perfect short.

Glad you agree. Now would you agree that in a system with
arcing, anything that eliminates the arcing and preserves
the signal has reduced the noise? A path to ground will
do exactly that.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
When you short ANY transmission line center to ground and the shield is
grounded, which is what you asked, ALL signal levels will decrease.
They will all go to zero if it is a perfect short.

Glad you agree. Now would you agree that in a system with
arcing, anything that eliminates the arcing and preserves
the signal has reduced the noise? A path to ground will
do exactly that.

Of course I agree when someone shorts the RF input connector of their
radio the noise will decrease! Better yet, they should just unplug it
and throw it in the closet! Then the noise will be zero!

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
Of course I agree when someone shorts the RF input connector of their
radio the noise will decrease!

W8JI previously wrote:
So when you provide a DC path that does not short the antenna at radio
frequencies, it does nothing.

In AZ, I provided a DC path (choke) that eliminated arcing
and allowed me to make contacts. The elimination of arcing
obviously improved my signal to noise ratio.

You have stopped asserting that folding doesn't make for
a quieter antenna system. Do you now understand why a
folded dipole is less noisy than a non-folded dipole in
a charged particle environment?

Do you understand that the probable cause for high
antennas having more particle noise is that the higher
you go, the faster the wind blows?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:

Of course I agree when someone shorts the RF input connector of their
radio the noise will decrease!


W8JI previously wrote:

So when you provide a DC path that does not short the antenna at radio
frequencies, it does nothing.


In AZ, I provided a DC path (choke) that eliminated arcing
and allowed me to make contacts. The elimination of arcing
obviously improved my signal to noise ratio.

You have stopped asserting that folding doesn't make for
a quieter antenna system. Do you now understand why a
folded dipole is less noisy than a non-folded dipole in
a charged particle environment?

Do you understand that the probable cause for high
antennas having more particle noise is that the higher
you go, the faster the wind blows?

Yes, but there are fewer particles. What, in Yahweh's name, is particle
noise? Is it somehow related to the triboelectric effect? What about the
effect of the earth's electric field (100 volts/meter)? This is
beginning to sound like the Forrest Mims III creation science
school of explaining natural phenomena. There are a few articles on
what's called "precipitation static" on the web. Generally,it's
supposed to be the noise made by corona discharge on objects that
have been charged up to high voltages by natural means. You might want
to read the articles, Cecil, before you speculate. It could only improve
your mind.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Noise level between two ant types
 

Tom Donaly wrote:

have been charged up to high voltages by natural means. You might want
to read the articles, Cecil, before you speculate. It could only improve
your mind.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

......or doing some actual experiments like I have done.

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

Tom Donaly wrote:
Yes, but there are fewer particles.

I don't think that is true. Dust is sucked high into
the air during the formation of a dust storm. I
have seen a wall of dust hundreds of feet high in
Arizona. It didn't look any denser closer to the
ground. In any case, it is not the number of
particles that matter but the average charge per
particle which increases with wind speed.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
.....or doing some actual experiments like I have done.

I have been reporting actual experiences from when
I lived in the Arizona desert and I can guarantee
you that charged particles exist in the dry-air
desert wind. Where does the charge on an antenna
come from if not from charged particles?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp