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HFTA-ARRL-Space
On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote: On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the But is it actually reflection? Owen -- |
#2
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HFTA-ARRL-Space
"Owen Duffy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the But is it actually reflection? no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles of incidence and height a bit easier. |
#3
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HFTA-ARRL-Space
But is it actually reflection? no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles of incidence and height a bit easier. ============================================ The trigonometry is quite simple. Things become complicated when the reflecting layer is not horizontal, ie., the layer is tilted. The angle and direction of tilt are very difficult to predict. Consequently, where on the surface of the Earth a ray returns is anybody's guess. This makes the vertical take-off angle, reported by antenna modelling programs, even less useful. ---- Reg. |
#4
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HFTA-ARRL-Space
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... But is it actually reflection? no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles of incidence and height a bit easier. ============================================ The trigonometry is quite simple. Things become complicated when the reflecting layer is not horizontal, ie., the layer is tilted. The angle and direction of tilt are very difficult to predict. Consequently, where on the surface of the Earth a ray returns is anybody's guess. This makes the vertical take-off angle, reported by antenna modelling programs, even less useful. no, it doesn't make it less useful. as a statistic it is still good, but you have to remember that it is nothing more than a statistic. and everyone knows 'you can prove anything with statistics'. the fact that the ionosphere is more complicated than a horizontal reflection layer model represents doesn't mean that its usefulness is reduced, just that there are some cases when it won't be completely accurate... those are the fun things that happen with propagation that keep it interesting. |
#5
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HFTA-ARRL-Space
Dear Reg:
You have articulated one of the many reasons why HF propagation is described in stochastic terms. As you know very well, measurements or predictions comprise at least two numbers: the best estimate of the number and an estimate of the uncertainty of the first number. Present models of HF propagation, which include antenna characteristics, provide both numbers. Early models of HF propagation tended to be somewhat deficient in providing the second number. However, I remember using the early models to predict (extrapolate) in real-time how much longer a certain frequency was likely to remain usable from noting the drop-out of a higher frequency. The physics involved has been understood for many years. It takes a long period of data gathering to be able to do a good job with the second number. In the early days (post WW2) of radio astronomy, the uncertainties of some important measurements were greater than the estimate. That did not last. 73 Mac N8TT P.S. Nice to know that W2DU is back. -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: "Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... But is it actually reflection? no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles of incidence and height a bit easier. ============================================ The trigonometry is quite simple. Things become complicated when the reflecting layer is not horizontal, ie., the layer is tilted. The angle and direction of tilt are very difficult to predict. Consequently, where on the surface of the Earth a ray returns is anybody's guess. This makes the vertical take-off angle, reported by antenna modelling programs, even less useful. ---- Reg. |
#6
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HFTA-ARRL-Space
Dave wrote:
"Owen Duffy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the But is it actually reflection? no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles of incidence and height a bit easier. If the end result is that the wave returns back to earth, why is this not termed reflection? Even if it is the result of several and/or continuous refractions that result in a return of the wave from the 2nd medium to the 1st, i.e., they sum to result in a reflected angle, seems to me reflection is a good term. I understand that a curved surface is more complex but if the result is the same, ...? |
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