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High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:57 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:02 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all dimmers?" No, thet don't, it depends on the manufacturer of the bulb. Here's a couple of references from someone that does not sell light bulbs or dimmers: http://www.cnet.com/how-to/five-thin...ing-led-bulbs/ http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ I find cnet to be more reliable than PC Magazine - but that isn't saying much. They are a consumer-oriented site, and dumb down their reports significantly to meet the average reader's intelligence (which means about the third-grade level - seriously). And please note the first reference is a person who is a "CNET How-to expert" and the second a "text-based adventure connoisseur".. Neither is an engineer. What are their credentials - except that they got paid? I'll go by the manufacturers which product the goods - and they all say the same thing. When in doubt, find out from the experts. Great review link. I think this shows conclusively that there are LED bulbs that work with legacy dimmers. Regardless of what the "experts" may say. :) Just the "experts" that have dimmers to sell... -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:09 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 9:10 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip No, I am arguing from facts - unlike you. I've been in the business of installing lighting control (and other things) for 11 years now. We install numerous LED control systems every year. I forgot that you are an expert on EVERYTHING and to call into question anything you say is the ultimate insult. You've just proven once again that you're an expert in NOTHING. And you've just proven once again that all that you know is what you have supposedly done, not what exists in the world. Here is a couple of articles on the subject from people who do NOT make a living selling either light bulbs or controls. http://www.cnet.com/how-to/five-thin...ing-led-bulbs/ http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ It seems that yes, dimmable LED bulbs are available for legacy dimmers, and they work just fine. snip Right. By a "CNET How-to expert" and a "text-based adventure game connoisseur". Real experts! I'll go by what the engineers who design the devices say. You keep reading the funnies. You mean the engineers working for the company that is trying to sell dimmers and bulbs? I'll go by the guy who doesn't have a dog in the race. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
"gareth" wrote in message
... These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? Apologies to all. I had thought that this might be an interesting area to investigate. I did not mean for it to be a vehicle for the two infantile Yank rednecks to vent their spleens (again) |
High brightness LEDs?
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. This combination does not work for all LED bulbs, because the electronics in the bulb are trying to put a constant current through the LED independent on the mains voltage, and now you are cutting down the mains power. (not even the voltage, really) You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack. Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in front of it? No, not really. When you turn down the dimmer, the supply will first try all it can do to keep the voltage at 13.8, and at some point it can not achieve that anymore and the voltage will drop, but it will not be stabilized anymore. Similarly, a LED bulb may keep constant light emission for a large part of the dimmer setpoint range, and at some point it goes down in intensity in an erratic way. We are just in the first phase of LED lighting deployment, the "compatability" phase where the bulbs are still using existing form factors of incandescent bulbs, and are supplied with mains voltage that is converted to current inside the bulb. It is not the best solution to use such bulbs in combination with existing dimmers. Of course a next phase will be to use more reasonable form factors and connection, where the electronics have a light level setpoint that determines the LED current and the mains voltage is directly applied without intermediate phase-cut dimmer. |
High brightness LEDs?
"Rob" wrote in message
... This combination does not work for all LED bulbs, because the electronics in the bulb are trying to put a constant current through the LED independent on the mains voltage Aah! I had not considered the possibility of further integration within the semiconductor of the LED. |
High brightness LEDs?
"gareth" wrote in message
... "Rob" wrote in message ... This combination does not work for all LED bulbs, because the electronics in the bulb are trying to put a constant current through the LED independent on the mains voltage Aah! I had not considered the possibility of further integration within the semiconductor of the LED. Clearly I'm behind the times, for all my LEDs are just that. In 1972 in my final year at Uni (electronics) I was drawing £3 per week for all living expenses, and £3 was the cost of an LED, and one of my contemporaries had special dispensation to include an LED in his 3rd year project! (STUDENT grant was £365, £1 per day, and tuition fees were paid) |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 12:02 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:46 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:16 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:01 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 10:39 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 8:52 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote: These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no. How many 3 volt valves can you name? I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it for tubes by making that adjustment. Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator, and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed number of LED's. Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"? How do you dim without an adjustable regulator? You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's output is always equal to some reference voltage. Again, it all depends. And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a current regulator with an average current output proportional to the raw input voltage. Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside, most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input. True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial. Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind of transformer? Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum, the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is where the current requirement becomes relevant. However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the raw high voltage come from. And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V, depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current. Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb. You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs. You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either of your opinions on. Jim says, Sorry, but lighting control has been my job for much of the last 11 years. I am considered an expert in it by many of my peers and teach courses on it. We also install many different lighting systems, including LED. You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for entire half cycles. Jerry says, Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here. Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine? Try reading a little... http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies". There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start. How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard dimmers in my home? Rick, How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? I don't see where they said that. They are only talking about their own products. "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." That seems to indicate they won't work reliably. And yet I have units in my home that work...reliably. Rather than cite dimmer companies, why not cite the bulb companies? That is what we are discussing. But since you want the details, here is a start. There are a number of problems with standard incandescent dimmers. Since they cut off the initial phase of the positive and negative phases, when they start conducting there is a large surge of power. This surge causes additional heat buildup in a switching power supply and can cause premature failure of the bulb and/or dimmer. Dealing with this heat would be part of the design requirements for a "dimmable" LED bulb, no? Not when used with a non-LED bulb dimmer. Simple LED dimmers use MOSFETs to trim the trailing part of the waveform, eliminating the surge. You can argue design all you want. But the fact is this surge current creates heat - which wastes energy, making the bulb less efficient. And adding what is necessary to handle the extra current would add cost, raising the price. Both make the product less competitive. I never said anything about "wasted" energy or competitiveness. I said LED bulbs can are are designed that work with existing dimmers. If you look at travel adapters for running U.S. devices on European voltages, you'll find two different types - electronic switching and standard transformer. You will notice the electronic switching supplies are higher powered have cautions not to use them with electronic loads such as radios and TV's. This is for the same reason as dimmers on LEDs - the dimmer does not put out a clean waveform. Transformer-based travel adapters have no such limitation because they put out a clean signal, but have lower power ratings. There are other problems, also. Conventional dimmers having a minimum load (minimum current flowing through triacs). If the minimum load to maintain conduction is 10W, a 15W LED will only dim to 2/3 power before turning off. Dimmable LED bulbs are also very sensitive to voltage fluctuations, and can flicker with variations in the line voltage. This is especially true when operating near that cutoff voltage noted above. Again, this is a design issue and one that is present even when not being dimmed. No, they do not flicker at full power. They may dim a bit, but they will not flicker. LED dimmers provide a stable voltage to the bulb, eliminating flicker. There is nothing inherent in a phase angle dimmer that causes flickering in a properly designed bulb. A few uF capacitance takes care of that. Also, since LED's respond immediately to current changes (unlike incandescent, which have a high thermal inertia), there is a tendency for them to flicker when the wrong dimmer is used. Sure, it's 120 hz flicker - but some people are sensitive to it and can suffer headaches. Worst case, but fortunately very rare, the flash can cause epileptic seizures those sensitive to it. I have seen no information that 120 Hz flicker is in any way noticeable or that anyone is sensitive to it. Monitors have flickered at much lower rates for a very long time. Plus... again, this is an issue without dimmers. You haven't been reading the medical engineering data. It is not so much an issue without dimmers because there is a slight inertial effect in the switching supply (capacitors) such that the bulb doesn't dim to 0, even at zero crossing. However, when you start cutting the AC cycle going to the bulb, the capacitors totally discharge and you get a relatively long period when the LEDs are completely black. Unless you add a bit more capacitance... again a bulb design issue. Which the non-dimmable bulbs have. Monitors are not a problem because they work completely differently. First of all, the original CRTs had a phosphor, which had a certain amount of persistence. Newer LCD monitors (even "LED" monitors are LCD monitors, just with an LED backlight) do not turn pixels on and off at a scan rate. Lol. Monitors do flicker and have always flickered. At 60 Hz most monitors bother me a lot. At 80 Hz not at all. I don't know anyone or have read anything that says 120 Hz is not sufficient to preclude the perception of flicker. Yes, CRTs flicker. They do not go out all together. And there is significant medical evidence that some people are susceptible to the on/off flicker at at 120 Hz. That's why companies have come out with phase width dimmers which operate at higher frequencies, such as 480 hz. If there weren't a need and a market for them, the manufacturers wouldn't spend the time and money developing the product. These are some of the most serious problems with using conventional dimmers with LED bulbs. It's also why manufacturers spend a lot of money developing special dimmers for LED bulbs. I would also recommend you check other manufacturer's of LED bulb dimmers. You will find they all have the same cautions. But since these pages are intended for consumers, they obviously leave out the technical details. Those are available to dealers, though, either through dealer-only pages or dealer support. And yet, I have dimmers that work... See above - and check other manufactures of LED dimmers, also. They all say the same thing. Argue with them, not me. Ok, I guess we are done then. I suggest you check your facts. And get your information from reliable resources. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing? And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing? And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and* record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group. Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd. Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer? -- Rick |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 12:12 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 11:50 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 10:51 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 9:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote: These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no. How many 3 volt valves can you name? I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it for tubes by making that adjustment. Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator, and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed number of LED's. Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"? How do you dim without an adjustable regulator? You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's output is always equal to some reference voltage. Again, it all depends. And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a current regulator with an average current output proportional to the raw input voltage. Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside, most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input. True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial. Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind of transformer? Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum, the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is where the current requirement becomes relevant. However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the raw high voltage come from. And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V, depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current. Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb. You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs. You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either of your opinions on. Jim says, You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for entire half cycles. Jerry says, Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. Try reading a little... http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html Rickman, here's a better page from the manufacturer of dimmers (and one of the lines we carry): http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Educatio...LsandLEDs.aspx Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all dimmers?" That has even less information than the page I referred you to. But it is accurate information from a manufacturer. Your link says nothing about LED lights in general, only the Lutron devices. As the article I referenced indicated, LEDs can be made to work with generic phase control dimmers and the several LED bulbs I have that work prove the point. I especially like Lutron's compatibility list. They have a wide definition of "compatible".... Of course. But check any manufacturer of LED dimmers. They all say the same thing in one way or another. "Products on this list are considered compatible with the respective Lutron C·L dimmers. Depending on the quality of the bulb you select, compatible bulbs may still: - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" LOL. If the combination does any of these things I don't consider that to be "compatible". No dimmer manufacturer can control how bulbs are built. Lutron does its best to specify what will and will not work. So why are you citing dimmer makers when we are discussing the bulbs? Because of the claim that any dimmer can be used with LED bulbs. And depending on the bulbs, they may or may not work with dimmers - even ones specifically made for LED bulbs. For instance, there are a some cheap Chinese LED bulbs which claim to be dimmable - but don't work reliably with ANY dimmer. And when you use them with a dimmer, they don't last long. Actually I find Lutron to have some real crap product as well as very poor customer support. In order to assure I could get compatible dimmer and lamp, I bought an LED fixture that listed part numbers for compatible dimmers (tested in conjunction with the dimmer companies) and bought a compatible Lutron dimmer. The result was they didn't work properly. Clearly this particular fixture was *not* compatible with generic dimmers and wasn't even compatible with the specified dimmer. They have excellent dealer support. And most of their sales is through dealers like us. You mean dealers like Home Depot who have zero support other than letting you return the crap that doesn't work? Like I said, the box was labeled as being compatible with the "tested" dimmers. It wasn't unless you define "compatible" (by the Lutron web page) as - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" Obviously Lutron has a very broad definition of "compatible". I would stop using them as an authority if I were you. Maybe the local store has no support, but that's not the end of their support. To become an authorized dealer, our tech people had to go through a lot of training (common for the better brands). Home Depot had to do the same thing, but obviously they don't have every employee in the country trained (nor could they maintain the training). And yes, "compatible" means they will work - but not necessarily how *well* they will work. And some bulbs work fine, while some don't - even when they are the same model from the same manufacturer. They have been a very reliable manufacturer for us in both the residential and commercial sectors for a number of years. When properly installed, we have had almost zero problems with their products. And we install a lot every year. But you don't like Lutron's comments? Here's another manufacturer: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251 Or this one (a non-engineering sales pitch, but saying the same thing) http://www.legrand.us/resources-and-...l-dimmers.aspx (download the article) I contacted both Lutron and the company who made the fixture. I don't recall the response of the LED fixture company but Lutron simply recommended another dimmer with no mention of why they were on the compatibility list and yet were not compatible. Probably because they are not high on consumer sales. Dealers like us get excellent support from them (and most manufacturers). I can even call and talk directly with an engineer. Do me a favor and ask them why they consider flickering, less dimming range, unsmooth dimming and buzzing as being acceptable in compatible products. Compatible does not mean it will work perfectly. True in ANY business. Their main consumer support is through the dealer you purchased it from. If you got it from the internet or similar, you got what you paid for. If you got it from an authorized Lutron dealer, they should support you. Sure, I expect I can *still* return it to Home Depot. But the point is Lutron and the lamp company has a crappy definition of "compatible" which means I won't be buying any more Lutron dimming products. By their own definition they work like crap. Meanwhile I have LED bulbs that do work properly with conventional dimmers. Also, you have not mentioned anything about how LED bulbs are design to work with *any* dimmers. The page I referenced provided a design that will provide a properly functioning LED bulb truly compatible with legacy dimmers. No, their definition is the same as that in any market. Compatible does not mean things will work perfectly. As to the article - you mean the one titled "LED lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies"? The one with an obvious agenda? Did you even read the article? How about Table 1 where it states that phase dimmers have problems with LED lighting? In fact, some of the same problems I have already mentioned? And BTW - what are the author's credentials? Is he an engineer who knows what he's talking about, or just some blogger who's read a few articles? The lack of a short bio is noticeable. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:13 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:57 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:02 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all dimmers?" No, thet don't, it depends on the manufacturer of the bulb. Here's a couple of references from someone that does not sell light bulbs or dimmers: http://www.cnet.com/how-to/five-thin...ing-led-bulbs/ http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ I find cnet to be more reliable than PC Magazine - but that isn't saying much. They are a consumer-oriented site, and dumb down their reports significantly to meet the average reader's intelligence (which means about the third-grade level - seriously). And please note the first reference is a person who is a "CNET How-to expert" and the second a "text-based adventure connoisseur".. Neither is an engineer. What are their credentials - except that they got paid? I'll go by the manufacturers which product the goods - and they all say the same thing. When in doubt, find out from the experts. Great review link. I think this shows conclusively that there are LED bulbs that work with legacy dimmers. Regardless of what the "experts" may say. :) Just the "experts" that have dimmers to sell... If they lied in their statements, the FTC would be after them in a second. They are very aggressive about such things. And not all manufacturers would be saying the same thing. But then you know everything, and you are always right. And anyone who disagrees with you is a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:15 AM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:09 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 9:10 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip No, I am arguing from facts - unlike you. I've been in the business of installing lighting control (and other things) for 11 years now. We install numerous LED control systems every year. I forgot that you are an expert on EVERYTHING and to call into question anything you say is the ultimate insult. You've just proven once again that you're an expert in NOTHING. And you've just proven once again that all that you know is what you have supposedly done, not what exists in the world. Here is a couple of articles on the subject from people who do NOT make a living selling either light bulbs or controls. http://www.cnet.com/how-to/five-thin...ing-led-bulbs/ http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ It seems that yes, dimmable LED bulbs are available for legacy dimmers, and they work just fine. snip Right. By a "CNET How-to expert" and a "text-based adventure game connoisseur". Real experts! I'll go by what the engineers who design the devices say. You keep reading the funnies. You mean the engineers working for the company that is trying to sell dimmers and bulbs? I'll go by the guy who doesn't have a dog in the race. If they lied in their statements, the FTC would be after them in a second. They are very aggressive about such things. And not all manufacturers would be saying the same thing. But then you know everything, and you are always right. And anyone who disagrees with you is a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 4:30 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. No, some bulbs are not dimmable, period. Some are. None work reliably with triac dimmer controls. This combination does not work for all LED bulbs, because the electronics in the bulb are trying to put a constant current through the LED independent on the mains voltage, and now you are cutting down the mains power. (not even the voltage, really) True - but non-dimmable bulbs do not work with other dimmers for the same reason. You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack. Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in front of it? Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. No, not really. When you turn down the dimmer, the supply will first try all it can do to keep the voltage at 13.8, and at some point it can not achieve that anymore and the voltage will drop, but it will not be stabilized anymore. Similarly, a LED bulb may keep constant light emission for a large part of the dimmer setpoint range, and at some point it goes down in intensity in an erratic way. Pretty much, yes. But that is true for any non-dimmable bulb with any dimmer. We are just in the first phase of LED lighting deployment, the "compatability" phase where the bulbs are still using existing form factors of incandescent bulbs, and are supplied with mains voltage that is converted to current inside the bulb. It is not the best solution to use such bulbs in combination with existing dimmers. Of course a next phase will be to use more reasonable form factors and connection, where the electronics have a light level setpoint that determines the LED current and the mains voltage is directly applied without intermediate phase-cut dimmer. There are already dimmers made for LEDs which work well. And there are commercial systems which use low voltage to drive the LEDs. But these are all proprietary; there are no standards for LED lighting yet. Eventually, maybe standards will be developed for the commercial market, but right now there is zero push for such standards. It's going to be years (if ever) before such standards are created for the residential market. There are too many reasons to stick with 117V wiring. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 12:28 AM, Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote: These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no. How many 3 volt valves can you name? I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it for tubes by making that adjustment. Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator, and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed number of LED's. Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"? How do you dim without an adjustable regulator? That may be semantics. LEDs are current driven, voltage won't have much effect other than when fed through a resistor that does convert to current. I never claimed it was a voltage regulator. You can have adjustable current regulators, also. More likely the LEDs would be driven with a square wave, and changing the ratio of on to off would vary the light output of the LED. Michael That's one of doing it, but not the only way. It probably is the most efficient way, though. And it does solve some other problems. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 9:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing? And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and* record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group. Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd. Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer? The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel. And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 4:30 AM, Rob wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. No, some bulbs are not dimmable, period. Some are. None work reliably with triac dimmer controls. Maybe not in your world, but here we can buy TRIAC dimmers and LED bulbs that work together. You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack. Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in front of it? Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for current, but that is another matter. There are already dimmers made for LEDs which work well. And there are commercial systems which use low voltage to drive the LEDs. But these are all proprietary; there are no standards for LED lighting yet. Eventually, maybe standards will be developed for the commercial market, but right now there is zero push for such standards. It's going to be years (if ever) before such standards are created for the residential market. There are too many reasons to stick with 117V wiring. LED is about current, not about voltage. A lighting system can put many LEDs in series and use a higher voltage. What is important is that the supply circuit gets separated from the bulb, so that it can be made dimmable, externally controlled, etc and the LED gets DC current supply. The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date, but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation. |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:09 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing? And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and* record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group. Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd. Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer? The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel. And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance. Did you actually *look* at the info? -- Rick |
High brightness LEDs?
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company) know how to design lighting systems. |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:14 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company) know how to design lighting systems. I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work with legacy dimmers. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:12 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 10:09 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 9:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 11/29/2014 9:15 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:07 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers cannot be used reliably? Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs. Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing? And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and* record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group. Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd. Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer? The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel. And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance. Did you actually *look* at the info? Yes, I did. And my comment stands. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 9:47 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 12:12 AM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:50 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 10:51 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 9:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote: These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no. How many 3 volt valves can you name? I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it for tubes by making that adjustment. Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator, and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed number of LED's. Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"? How do you dim without an adjustable regulator? You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's output is always equal to some reference voltage. Again, it all depends. And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a current regulator with an average current output proportional to the raw input voltage. Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside, most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input. True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial. Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind of transformer? Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum, the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is where the current requirement becomes relevant. However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the raw high voltage come from. And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V, depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current. Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb. You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs. You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either of your opinions on. Jim says, You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for entire half cycles. Jerry says, Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. Try reading a little... http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html Rickman, here's a better page from the manufacturer of dimmers (and one of the lines we carry): http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Educatio...LsandLEDs.aspx Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all dimmers?" That has even less information than the page I referred you to. But it is accurate information from a manufacturer. Your link says nothing about LED lights in general, only the Lutron devices. As the article I referenced indicated, LEDs can be made to work with generic phase control dimmers and the several LED bulbs I have that work prove the point. I especially like Lutron's compatibility list. They have a wide definition of "compatible".... Of course. But check any manufacturer of LED dimmers. They all say the same thing in one way or another. "Products on this list are considered compatible with the respective Lutron C·L dimmers. Depending on the quality of the bulb you select, compatible bulbs may still: - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" LOL. If the combination does any of these things I don't consider that to be "compatible". No dimmer manufacturer can control how bulbs are built. Lutron does its best to specify what will and will not work. So why are you citing dimmer makers when we are discussing the bulbs? Because of the claim that any dimmer can be used with LED bulbs. And depending on the bulbs, they may or may not work with dimmers - even ones specifically made for LED bulbs. For instance, there are a some cheap Chinese LED bulbs which claim to be dimmable - but don't work reliably with ANY dimmer. And when you use them with a dimmer, they don't last long. Actually I find Lutron to have some real crap product as well as very poor customer support. In order to assure I could get compatible dimmer and lamp, I bought an LED fixture that listed part numbers for compatible dimmers (tested in conjunction with the dimmer companies) and bought a compatible Lutron dimmer. The result was they didn't work properly. Clearly this particular fixture was *not* compatible with generic dimmers and wasn't even compatible with the specified dimmer. They have excellent dealer support. And most of their sales is through dealers like us. You mean dealers like Home Depot who have zero support other than letting you return the crap that doesn't work? Like I said, the box was labeled as being compatible with the "tested" dimmers. It wasn't unless you define "compatible" (by the Lutron web page) as - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" Obviously Lutron has a very broad definition of "compatible". I would stop using them as an authority if I were you. Maybe the local store has no support, but that's not the end of their support. To become an authorized dealer, our tech people had to go through a lot of training (common for the better brands). Home Depot had to do the same thing, but obviously they don't have every employee in the country trained (nor could they maintain the training). Good luck trying to find *anyone* in the store with "training" in dimmers. I did and found no one who could help me pick out compatible devices. And yes, "compatible" means they will work - but not necessarily how *well* they will work. And some bulbs work fine, while some don't - even when they are the same model from the same manufacturer. There you go. A bulb or dimmer can be total crap, producing totally unacceptable operation and that is ok with the maker. But as long as it was certified as "compatible" by an engineer, that's ok with you too. They have been a very reliable manufacturer for us in both the residential and commercial sectors for a number of years. When properly installed, we have had almost zero problems with their products. And we install a lot every year. But you don't like Lutron's comments? Here's another manufacturer: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251 This page doesn't say anything like what you are saying. Or this one (a non-engineering sales pitch, but saying the same thing) http://www.legrand.us/resources-and-...l-dimmers.aspx (download the article) This one isn't even about the bulbs, it is only about dimmers. You seem to be looking at this from the wrong perspective. Let me recap... You... Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Me... Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. No, you can't use just any dimmer with just any bulb. But as the article from the possibly "non-engineer" there are bulbs that will work with any dimmer which is what I said. I contacted both Lutron and the company who made the fixture. I don't recall the response of the LED fixture company but Lutron simply recommended another dimmer with no mention of why they were on the compatibility list and yet were not compatible. Probably because they are not high on consumer sales. Dealers like us get excellent support from them (and most manufacturers). I can even call and talk directly with an engineer. Do me a favor and ask them why they consider flickering, less dimming range, unsmooth dimming and buzzing as being acceptable in compatible products. Compatible does not mean it will work perfectly. True in ANY business. Lol! That is the road to returns and is a line of BS. Their main consumer support is through the dealer you purchased it from. If you got it from the internet or similar, you got what you paid for. If you got it from an authorized Lutron dealer, they should support you. Sure, I expect I can *still* return it to Home Depot. But the point is Lutron and the lamp company has a crappy definition of "compatible" which means I won't be buying any more Lutron dimming products. By their own definition they work like crap. Meanwhile I have LED bulbs that do work properly with conventional dimmers. Also, you have not mentioned anything about how LED bulbs are design to work with *any* dimmers. The page I referenced provided a design that will provide a properly functioning LED bulb truly compatible with legacy dimmers. No, their definition is the same as that in any market. Compatible does not mean things will work perfectly. As to the article - you mean the one titled "LED lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies"? The one with an obvious agenda? Really? What is the agenda? Did you even read the article? How about Table 1 where it states that phase dimmers have problems with LED lighting? In fact, some of the same problems I have already mentioned? No one ever said all LEDs will work with all dimmers. You keep recycling the same arguments. And BTW - what are the author's credentials? Is he an engineer who knows what he's talking about, or just some blogger who's read a few articles? The lack of a short bio is noticeable. How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Ok, I guess I'm done with this conversation. Enjoy. -- Rick |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:12 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 4:30 AM, Rob wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. No, some bulbs are not dimmable, period. Some are. None work reliably with triac dimmer controls. Maybe not in your world, but here we can buy TRIAC dimmers and LED bulbs that work together. Maybe you THINK they work. But there are a number of problems (some of which I have identified in this thread) which show they don't work well together. You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack. Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in front of it? Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for current, but that is another matter. Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely different principles. There are already dimmers made for LEDs which work well. And there are commercial systems which use low voltage to drive the LEDs. But these are all proprietary; there are no standards for LED lighting yet. Eventually, maybe standards will be developed for the commercial market, but right now there is zero push for such standards. It's going to be years (if ever) before such standards are created for the residential market. There are too many reasons to stick with 117V wiring. LED is about current, not about voltage. A lighting system can put many LEDs in series and use a higher voltage. What is important is that the supply circuit gets separated from the bulb, so that it can be made dimmable, externally controlled, etc and the LED gets DC current supply. Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems; you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems. Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted - all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology. The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date, but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation. That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far. But it's not going to happen here. Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously. And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing. Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission lines. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:26 AM, rickman wrote:
On 11/29/2014 9:47 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 12:12 AM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 11:50 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 10:51 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 9:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote: These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve experiments and repairs? As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no. How many 3 volt valves can you name? I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it for tubes by making that adjustment. Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator, and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed number of LED's. Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"? How do you dim without an adjustable regulator? You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's output is always equal to some reference voltage. Again, it all depends. And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a current regulator with an average current output proportional to the raw input voltage. Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside, most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input. True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial. Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind of transformer? Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum, the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is where the current requirement becomes relevant. However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the raw high voltage come from. And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V, depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current. Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb. You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs. You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either of your opinions on. Jim says, You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb? which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for entire half cycles. Jerry says, Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. Try reading a little... http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html Rickman, here's a better page from the manufacturer of dimmers (and one of the lines we carry): http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Educatio...LsandLEDs.aspx Note the paragraph under "Do all LED and CFL light bulbs work with all dimmers?" That has even less information than the page I referred you to. But it is accurate information from a manufacturer. Your link says nothing about LED lights in general, only the Lutron devices. As the article I referenced indicated, LEDs can be made to work with generic phase control dimmers and the several LED bulbs I have that work prove the point. I especially like Lutron's compatibility list. They have a wide definition of "compatible".... Of course. But check any manufacturer of LED dimmers. They all say the same thing in one way or another. "Products on this list are considered compatible with the respective Lutron C·L dimmers. Depending on the quality of the bulb you select, compatible bulbs may still: - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" LOL. If the combination does any of these things I don't consider that to be "compatible". No dimmer manufacturer can control how bulbs are built. Lutron does its best to specify what will and will not work. So why are you citing dimmer makers when we are discussing the bulbs? Because of the claim that any dimmer can be used with LED bulbs. And depending on the bulbs, they may or may not work with dimmers - even ones specifically made for LED bulbs. For instance, there are a some cheap Chinese LED bulbs which claim to be dimmable - but don't work reliably with ANY dimmer. And when you use them with a dimmer, they don't last long. Actually I find Lutron to have some real crap product as well as very poor customer support. In order to assure I could get compatible dimmer and lamp, I bought an LED fixture that listed part numbers for compatible dimmers (tested in conjunction with the dimmer companies) and bought a compatible Lutron dimmer. The result was they didn't work properly. Clearly this particular fixture was *not* compatible with generic dimmers and wasn't even compatible with the specified dimmer. They have excellent dealer support. And most of their sales is through dealers like us. You mean dealers like Home Depot who have zero support other than letting you return the crap that doesn't work? Like I said, the box was labeled as being compatible with the "tested" dimmers. It wasn't unless you define "compatible" (by the Lutron web page) as - have less dimming range than an incandescent or halogen bulb - dim less smoothly than an incandescent or halogen bulb - flicker or shimmer at certain light levels - buzz" Obviously Lutron has a very broad definition of "compatible". I would stop using them as an authority if I were you. Maybe the local store has no support, but that's not the end of their support. To become an authorized dealer, our tech people had to go through a lot of training (common for the better brands). Home Depot had to do the same thing, but obviously they don't have every employee in the country trained (nor could they maintain the training). Good luck trying to find *anyone* in the store with "training" in dimmers. I did and found no one who could help me pick out compatible devices. And yes, "compatible" means they will work - but not necessarily how *well* they will work. And some bulbs work fine, while some don't - even when they are the same model from the same manufacturer. There you go. A bulb or dimmer can be total crap, producing totally unacceptable operation and that is ok with the maker. But as long as it was certified as "compatible" by an engineer, that's ok with you too. They have been a very reliable manufacturer for us in both the residential and commercial sectors for a number of years. When properly installed, we have had almost zero problems with their products. And we install a lot every year. But you don't like Lutron's comments? Here's another manufacturer: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251 This page doesn't say anything like what you are saying. Or this one (a non-engineering sales pitch, but saying the same thing) http://www.legrand.us/resources-and-...l-dimmers.aspx (download the article) This one isn't even about the bulbs, it is only about dimmers. You seem to be looking at this from the wrong perspective. Let me recap... You... Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs? Me... Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb has to be designed for it. No, you can't use just any dimmer with just any bulb. But as the article from the possibly "non-engineer" there are bulbs that will work with any dimmer which is what I said. I contacted both Lutron and the company who made the fixture. I don't recall the response of the LED fixture company but Lutron simply recommended another dimmer with no mention of why they were on the compatibility list and yet were not compatible. Probably because they are not high on consumer sales. Dealers like us get excellent support from them (and most manufacturers). I can even call and talk directly with an engineer. Do me a favor and ask them why they consider flickering, less dimming range, unsmooth dimming and buzzing as being acceptable in compatible products. Compatible does not mean it will work perfectly. True in ANY business. Lol! That is the road to returns and is a line of BS. Their main consumer support is through the dealer you purchased it from. If you got it from the internet or similar, you got what you paid for. If you got it from an authorized Lutron dealer, they should support you. Sure, I expect I can *still* return it to Home Depot. But the point is Lutron and the lamp company has a crappy definition of "compatible" which means I won't be buying any more Lutron dimming products. By their own definition they work like crap. Meanwhile I have LED bulbs that do work properly with conventional dimmers. Also, you have not mentioned anything about how LED bulbs are design to work with *any* dimmers. The page I referenced provided a design that will provide a properly functioning LED bulb truly compatible with legacy dimmers. No, their definition is the same as that in any market. Compatible does not mean things will work perfectly. As to the article - you mean the one titled "LED lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies"? The one with an obvious agenda? Really? What is the agenda? Just what it says. "LED lighting MUST work...". And anything less is unacceptable. Did you even read the article? How about Table 1 where it states that phase dimmers have problems with LED lighting? In fact, some of the same problems I have already mentioned? No one ever said all LEDs will work with all dimmers. You keep recycling the same arguments. It didn't even say all dimmable LED bulbs work with all legacy dimmers. And BTW - what are the author's credentials? Is he an engineer who knows what he's talking about, or just some blogger who's read a few articles? The lack of a short bio is noticeable. How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Ok, I guess I'm done with this conversation. Enjoy. Obviously you would rather believe an article by someone with no demonstrable technical knowledge to engineers who design and have an intimate knowledge of the technology. "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for current, but that is another matter. Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely different principles. Constant voltage and constant current are not different principles. Linear and switchmode are. Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems; you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems. What problems? Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted - all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology. When someone points you at a manufacturer that gets things right you question the truth... The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date, but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation. That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far. But it's not going to happen here. Of course not. You are living in the USA. There is no innovation in the USA. I would never expect something to be changed. Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously. At that time, AC had more advantages. Now, DC has. And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing. The economy here works a bit differently. When new systems have advantages, they get deployed. Especially when they consume less energy. You know, we have (only) digital TV here. For nearly 10 years no. Something that will take years in the USA. Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission lines. There you are! A DC transmission line between here and Norway has been operating for several years. Windenergy parks at sea are also feeding DC. But at home it is even more of an advantage. E.g. to charge your electrical car you want as much power as possible, and at DC the same copper wire with the same insulation and safety concerns can transport 2-4 times more power. |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 10:41 AM, Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. Maybe your power supply, but mine is a switchmode supply and it works completely the same as any other. It is regulated for voltage, not for current, but that is another matter. Completely unrelated. The LED electronics and the power supply work completely differently. The first difference you are ignoring is your power supply is constant voltage. A LED power supply is constant current. They work on entirely different principles. Constant voltage and constant current are not different principles. Linear and switchmode are. No, they operate on entirely different principles. Sure they can be connected in series. But that has it's own problems; you can only go so far. And yes, the LED gets a DC supply - but it's the generation of the constant current source which causes the problems. What problems? Please read back through my posts here. I'm not going to repeat myself. Don't believe me, though. Look at some of the references I have posted - all written by EEs intimately familiar with the technology. When someone points you at a manufacturer that gets things right you question the truth... What did they get right? Physics doesn't change based on the manufacturer. If you must know, Phillips is not considered one of the top brands in the U.S. The mains here is 230V AC. There even are proposals to change that into 325V DC or even 500V DC. Not accepted proposals with a set date, but still. DC supply is more efficient for the home these days, now everthing uses switchmode supplies, it can transport more power with the same amount of copper and the same class of insulation. That's fine for you. Personally, I don't expect it to get very far. But it's not going to happen here. Of course not. You are living in the USA. There is no innovation in the USA. I would never expect something to be changed. Oh no? ROFLMAO! Who do you think first developed LED bulbs? Here's a hint: it wasn't Phillips. Back in the 1800's, there was a current war. Nikola Tesla (supported by George Westinghouse) proposed using AC. Thomas Edison proposed using DC. Both had their advantages and disadvantages. AC won, obviously. At that time, AC had more advantages. Now, DC has. No, at the time neither had an advantage. You need to read up on the "war" between Tesla and Edison. And now, it is so ingrained into our economy there is no chance of changing. The economy here works a bit differently. When new systems have advantages, they get deployed. Especially when they consume less energy. You know, we have (only) digital TV here. For nearly 10 years no. Something that will take years in the USA. We have only digital TV here, also. Been that way for over 5 years. Although the utilities are building some long distance DC transmission lines. There you are! A DC transmission line between here and Norway has been operating for several years. Windenergy parks at sea are also feeding DC. But at home it is even more of an advantage. E.g. to charge your electrical car you want as much power as possible, and at DC the same copper wire with the same insulation and safety concerns can transport 2-4 times more power. We've had them for years, also. I don't know when they started, but utilities are still building them. Probably have been for 20-30 years, as semiconductors able to handle the power and voltage became available. We also have a lot of wind turbines - both at see and on land. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and dimmers you sell; you kind of have to. There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the same views you do. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 10:14 AM, Rob wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company) know how to design lighting systems. I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work with legacy dimmers. Independant reviews by people not selling someone else's product like you are say they do. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip If they lied in their statements, the FTC would be after them in a second. They are very aggressive about such things. Only if people complain first or if the statements are blatent and very visible as on TV. I did not say they lied, which is irrelevant, as they were only talking about their products. And not all manufacturers would be saying the same thing. Not all manufacturers are saying the same thing. But then you know everything, and you are always right. And anyone who disagrees with you is a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about. I am not the one selling light bulbs and neither are the people that also disagree with you. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Rob wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. This combination does not work for all LED bulbs, because the electronics in the bulb are trying to put a constant current through the LED independent on the mains voltage, and now you are cutting down the mains power. (not even the voltage, really) Yes, the RMS voltage, really. If you remove part of a cycle from a sine wave, the RMS voltage goes down. The RMS voltage depends on the waveform. You probably have a 13.8V stabilized DC supply in your shack. Can you use it as a variable-voltage supply by putting a dimmer in front of it? No, not really. When you turn down the dimmer, the supply will first try all it can do to keep the voltage at 13.8, and at some point it can not achieve that anymore and the voltage will drop, but it will not be stabilized anymore. Similarly, a LED bulb may keep constant light emission for a large part of the dimmer setpoint range, and at some point it goes down in intensity in an erratic way. We are just in the first phase of LED lighting deployment, the "compatability" phase where the bulbs are still using existing form factors of incandescent bulbs, and are supplied with mains voltage that is converted to current inside the bulb. It is not the best solution to use such bulbs in combination with existing dimmers. Of course a next phase will be to use more reasonable form factors and connection, where the electronics have a light level setpoint that determines the LED current and the mains voltage is directly applied without intermediate phase-cut dimmer. People like dimmers and the huge installed base of legacy dimmers ensures they will be around for decades. The various standards groups, such as NEMA, are actively working on standards for the new lighting technologies and as the issue is global and involves billions of dollars of product, will likely eventually result in a set of standards for bulbs for legacy dimmers and standards for new technologies. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/29/2014 4:30 AM, Rob wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case, why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not? "is it dimmable" refers to the use of a phase-cut TRIAC dimmer in combination with a retrofit LED bulb designed to run on mains power. No, some bulbs are not dimmable, period. Some are. None work reliably with triac dimmer controls. According to independant reviews by people NOT selling light bulbs, some manufacturers bulbs do. The ones you are selling do not. snip It's going to be years (if ever) before such standards are created for the residential market. There are too many reasons to stick with 117V wiring. The standards are being actively developed and have nothing to do with altering the wiring voltage and everything to do with dimmer and bulb technology. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip If you must know, Phillips is not considered one of the top brands in the U.S. Yeah, they must be trolls. snip Oh no? ROFLMAO! Who do you think first developed LED bulbs? Here's a hint: it wasn't Phillips. Hint: The Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007 authorized the Department of Energy (DOE) to establish the Bright Tomorrow Lighting Prize competition, known as the "L Prize". On 3 August 2011, DOE awarded the prize in the 60 W replacement category to a Philips' LED lamp after 18 months of extensive testing. snip No, at the time neither had an advantage. You need to read up on the "war" between Tesla and Edison. At the time there was no such thing as an effient DC-DC converter but transformers did exist; that was a HUGE advantage. snip We have only digital TV here, also. Been that way for over 5 years. Nope, we still have legacy analog in many places and that was the reason the FCC denied the petition to establish a 4M amateur band in the US. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
In rec.radio.amateur.homebrew gareth wrote:
Apologies to all. I had thought that this might be an interesting area to investigate. I did not mean for it to be a vehicle for the two infantile Yank rednecks to vent their spleens (again) Thus speaketh Colonel Blimp, the pikey, bloviating, gas bag. -- Jim Pennino |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 12:56 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 10:14 AM, Rob wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company) know how to design lighting systems. I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work with legacy dimmers. Independant reviews by people not selling someone else's product like you are say they do. Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid for them. Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 12:55 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/29/2014 1:09 AM, wrote: In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip "No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL bulbs." Not if you use Phillips bulbs. http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-l...t-for-dimming/ snip remainder And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based adventure connoisseur"? I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages. Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and dimmers you sell; you kind of have to. No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't believe them, we wouldn't sell their product. There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the same views you do. Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid for them. Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:06 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip If they lied in their statements, the FTC would be after them in a second. They are very aggressive about such things. Only if people complain first or if the statements are blatent and very visible as on TV. Incorrect. The FTC takes actions on their own quite often. I did not say they lied, which is irrelevant, as they were only talking about their products. Either they are correct or they lied. Which one is it? And not all manufacturers would be saying the same thing. Not all manufacturers are saying the same thing. Which ones are not? But then you know everything, and you are always right. And anyone who disagrees with you is a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about. I am not the one selling light bulbs and neither are the people that also disagree with you. No, and you're not experts in the field. The engineers I've worked with are. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
High brightness LEDs?
On 11/29/2014 1:33 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip If you must know, Phillips is not considered one of the top brands in the U.S. Yeah, they must be trolls. You said it, not me. snip Oh no? ROFLMAO! Who do you think first developed LED bulbs? Here's a hint: it wasn't Phillips. Hint: The Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007 authorized the Department of Energy (DOE) to establish the Bright Tomorrow Lighting Prize competition, known as the "L Prize". On 3 August 2011, DOE awarded the prize in the 60 W replacement category to a Philips' LED lamp after 18 months of extensive testing. Yes, but they did not develop the LED bulb. You obviously are not reading, and arguing for argument's sake. snip No, at the time neither had an advantage. You need to read up on the "war" between Tesla and Edison. At the time there was no such thing as an effient DC-DC converter but transformers did exist; that was a HUGE advantage. Which had nothing to do with the war between Tesla and Edison. You should read about the history before proving your ignorance. snip We have only digital TV here, also. Been that way for over 5 years. Nope, we still have legacy analog in many places and that was the reason the FCC denied the petition to establish a 4M amateur band in the US. Nope. There is no analog TV in the United States. But those frequencies ARE being used by digital TV stations - as the FCC said in its denial of the petition. Once again you prove your ignorance. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
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