On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Jerry says,

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Try reading a little...

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html

--

Rick

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Yes, for LED bulbs.

However, the simplest way to see that the light output is controlled
by the applied voltage is to simply look at the base of a dimmable
bulb and note that there are only two connections; no third connection
for a control, just the same as all other light bulbs.

Some are dimmable and some are not because it takes more parts to make
a dimmable bulb and the demand for them is less than that for non-dimmable
bulbs.

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

Nope; light bulbs run at a rated voltage which is the standard voltage
for the country in which they are sold; US light bulbs are rated for
120v, UK bulbs for whatever the voltage is over there, I think 240V.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

You can if the bulb is specified as dimmable; some are, and some are not
and they all use the standard two connection E26 base.

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

None of this has anything to do with high voltage.

The standard US wall outlet is rated at 15 Amps.

A Phillips A21 75W replacement LED bulb draws 15W at 120V (0.125A)
and is dimmable.

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/04667...white-dimmable

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You obiously have never noticed that the base of an LED bulb is identical
to that of an incandescent, i.e. two wire E26 base, and that standard wall
outlets in the US are 15 Amps.


--
Jim Pennino

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

snip

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

No, I am NOT speculating on anything.

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Yes, it is correct as it means that the average voltage is changed.

Incandescent bulbs are thermal devices and the light ouput is directly
proportional to the average applied voltage and don't care if the
applied voltage is DC, a sine wave, or pulses derived from a sine wave.

And dimmers do NOT work by changing the phase angle, they work by
changing a thyristor phase control.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications


--
Jim Pennino

On 11/28/2014 7:37 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

snip

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

No, I am NOT speculating on anything.

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Yes, it is correct as it means that the average voltage is changed.

Incandescent bulbs are thermal devices and the light ouput is directly
proportional to the average applied voltage and don't care if the
applied voltage is DC, a sine wave, or pulses derived from a sine wave.

And dimmers do NOT work by changing the phase angle, they work by
changing a thyristor phase control.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

Please be as pedantic as you like. You are wrong.

The very article you reference shows that the dimmer works by
controlling the phase angle over which the AC voltage is passed to the
load. There are *many* LED bulbs which can be dimmed by this standard
type of dimmer. As the reference I provide shows, these bulbs include
smarts to measure this phase angle and adjust the bulb brightness
accordingly. I have several in my home.

--

Rick

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:37 PM, wrote:

snip

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

Please be as pedantic as you like. You are wrong.

No, I am not, and I am being precise in my language.

The very article you reference shows that the dimmer works by
controlling the phase angle over which the AC voltage is passed to the
load.

Which is the phase angle, or more properly, the conduction angle of the
contolling device, not the phase angle of the AC source.

If the voltage is turned off for part of the conduction cycle, the
average voltage changes.

This is Electronics 101.

There are *many* LED bulbs which can be dimmed by this standard
type of dimmer.

Yes, there are, but that is irrelevant to how a dimmer works and only
relevant to how the bulb works.

As the reference I provide shows,

What reference?

these bulbs include
smarts to measure this phase angle

You mean conduction angle?

You can't measure a phase angle absent a reference signal of a known
phase.

Again, Electronic 101.

and adjust the bulb brightness
accordingly. I have several in my home.

Whoopee!!


--
Jim Pennino

On 11/28/2014 7:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 11/28/2014 6:16 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth
wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The
probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some
very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could
use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's
output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues
aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,


Sorry, but lighting control has been my job for much of the last 11
years. I am considered an expert in it by many of my peers and teach
courses on it. We also install many different lighting systems,
including LED.

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Jerry says,

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.


Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Try reading a little...

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...-magazine.html



This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".

There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/28/2014 7:23 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Yes, for LED bulbs.


Once again you show your ignorance.

However, the simplest way to see that the light output is controlled
by the applied voltage is to simply look at the base of a dimmable
bulb and note that there are only two connections; no third connection
for a control, just the same as all other light bulbs.


Which means nothing.

Some are dimmable and some are not because it takes more parts to make
a dimmable bulb and the demand for them is less than that for non-dimmable
bulbs.

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

Nope; light bulbs run at a rated voltage which is the standard voltage
for the country in which they are sold; US light bulbs are rated for
120v, UK bulbs for whatever the voltage is over there, I think 240V.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.


No, I am arguing from facts - unlike you. I've been in the business of
installing lighting control (and other things) for 11 years now. We
install numerous LED control systems every year.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

You can if the bulb is specified as dimmable; some are, and some are not
and they all use the standard two connection E26 base.


Wrong again.

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

None of this has anything to do with high voltage.


It has to do with the current required by the bulbs.

The standard US wall outlet is rated at 15 Amps.

A Phillips A21 75W replacement LED bulb draws 15W at 120V (0.125A)
and is dimmable.


Yes, and at 3V that would require 5 amps. At 120V that would be 600W,
not 15W.

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/04667...white-dimmable

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You obiously have never noticed that the base of an LED bulb is identical
to that of an incandescent, i.e. two wire E26 base, and that standard wall
outlets in the US are 15 Amps.



Which only means they can plug into a standard socket and run off of 120V.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:23 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Yes, for LED bulbs.


Once again you show your ignorance.

Once again you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

However, the simplest way to see that the light output is controlled
by the applied voltage is to simply look at the base of a dimmable
bulb and note that there are only two connections; no third connection
for a control, just the same as all other light bulbs.


Which means nothing.

Which means there can not be a control wire for a variable regulator.

The only input a light bulb has is the input voltage.

Some are dimmable and some are not because it takes more parts to make
a dimmable bulb and the demand for them is less than that for non-dimmable
bulbs.

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

Nope; light bulbs run at a rated voltage which is the standard voltage
for the country in which they are sold; US light bulbs are rated for
120v, UK bulbs for whatever the voltage is over there, I think 240V.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.


No, I am arguing from facts - unlike you. I've been in the business of
installing lighting control (and other things) for 11 years now. We
install numerous LED control systems every year.

I forgot that you are an expert on EVERYTHING and to call into question
anything you say is the ultimate insult.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

You can if the bulb is specified as dimmable; some are, and some are not
and they all use the standard two connection E26 base.


Wrong again.

Yes, right again.

Light bulbs in the US use the E26 base and some are dimmable and some are
not.

If you have doubts, go into Home Depot, Lowe's, or any place that sells
light bulbs and look.

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

None of this has anything to do with high voltage.


It has to do with the current required by the bulbs.

Which is two orders of magnitudes less than what a standard US outlet
is capable of supplying.

The standard US wall outlet is rated at 15 Amps.

A Phillips A21 75W replacement LED bulb draws 15W at 120V (0.125A)
and is dimmable.


Yes, and at 3V that would require 5 amps. At 120V that would be 600W,
not 15W.

So what is your claim here; that LED light bulbs HAVE to hae a transformer?

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/04667...white-dimmable

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You obiously have never noticed that the base of an LED bulb is identical
to that of an incandescent, i.e. two wire E26 base, and that standard wall
outlets in the US are 15 Amps.



Which only means they can plug into a standard socket and run off of 120V.

Again you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

How long until you start with your usual ad hominems?


--
Jim Pennino

On 11/28/2014 9:10 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 7:23 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 5:24 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/28/2014 4:11 PM, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth wrote:
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.


Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?


For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Yes, for LED bulbs.


Once again you show your ignorance.

Once again you are arguing for the sake of arguing.


No, I'm just telling you that you are wrong - and why. YOU are the one
arguing for the sake of arguing - and in the process, proving your
ignorance.

However, the simplest way to see that the light output is controlled
by the applied voltage is to simply look at the base of a dimmable
bulb and note that there are only two connections; no third connection
for a control, just the same as all other light bulbs.


Which means nothing.

Which means there can not be a control wire for a variable regulator.

The only input a light bulb has is the input voltage.


So what? You don't need a control wire for a dimmable LED bulb (or any
other). It's in the signal being fed to the bulb.

Some are dimmable and some are not because it takes more parts to make
a dimmable bulb and the demand for them is less than that for non-dimmable
bulbs.

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.


Again, it all depends.

Nope; light bulbs run at a rated voltage which is the standard voltage
for the country in which they are sold; US light bulbs are rated for
120v, UK bulbs for whatever the voltage is over there, I think 240V.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.


No, I am arguing from facts - unlike you. I've been in the business of
installing lighting control (and other things) for 11 years now. We
install numerous LED control systems every year.

I forgot that you are an expert on EVERYTHING and to call into question
anything you say is the ultimate insult.


You've just proven once again that you're an expert in NOTHING.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.


Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

You can if the bulb is specified as dimmable; some are, and some are not
and they all use the standard two connection E26 base.


Wrong again.

Yes, right again.

Light bulbs in the US use the E26 base and some are dimmable and some are
not.

If you have doubts, go into Home Depot, Lowe's, or any place that sells
light bulbs and look.


I never said anything different. What I said was that LED bulbs cannot
be dimmed with a standard incandescent dimmer.

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.


Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.


And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

None of this has anything to do with high voltage.


It has to do with the current required by the bulbs.

Which is two orders of magnitudes less than what a standard US outlet
is capable of supplying.


Sure. But you miss the fact that 5 amps is 5 amps - whether at 3V or 120V.

The standard US wall outlet is rated at 15 Amps.

A Phillips A21 75W replacement LED bulb draws 15W at 120V (0.125A)
and is dimmable.


Yes, and at 3V that would require 5 amps. At 120V that would be 600W,
not 15W.

So what is your claim here; that LED light bulbs HAVE to hae a transformer?


Yes. The bulbs have electronic circuitry in the base which include a
switching power supply and high frequency transformer.

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/04667...white-dimmable

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You obiously have never noticed that the base of an LED bulb is identical
to that of an incandescent, i.e. two wire E26 base, and that standard wall
outlets in the US are 15 Amps.



Which only means they can plug into a standard socket and run off of 120V.

Again you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

How long until you start with your usual ad hominems?



Which just shows that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, and in
doing so, showing your ignorance.

As for the ad hominem attacks - you're the king of those, as has been
repeatedly proven.

--
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Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

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