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#21
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"David Eduardo" wrote in message ... I was talking about listinening in Monterrey Park, right in the main lobe. My maps show Monterey Park to be off to the north of the KTNQ peak. I'd guess down to the half-power point on the pattern, or lower. Pattern peak direction abt 245 deg, direction to Monterey Park abt 290 deg. In any case, 30kHz spacing shouldn't be a severe test. |
#22
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"R J Carpenter" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message ... I was talking about listinening in Monterrey Park, right in the main lobe. My maps show Monterey Park to be off to the north of the KTNQ peak. Monterrey Park is right in the major lobe on the KTNQ pattern, about 8 miles W by NW of the Industry site; the ERP there is in the vicinity of 100 to 125 kw, depending on where in Monterrey Park you are. It may be less than towards Huntington Park, but far more than a non-DA 50 kw operation. I'd guess down to the half-power point on the pattern, or lower. Pattern peak direction abt 245 deg, direction to Monterey Park abt 290 deg. In any case, 30kHz spacing shouldn't be a severe test. With the IE station about 45 miles away, I'd say it is a decent test. In fact, 1050 in that area is usually a mix of XED and the IE station. |
#23
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How is AM stereo doing in the US?
Just about dead. Few receivers available except for some OEM car radios, fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it. But there are still more than 10 times as many AM Stereo stations as there are AM stations using IBOC. And as for "fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it", you could say that about IBOC -- within my listening range here in NJ, there are at least half a dozen stations which tested IBOC for a few weeks or months and then gave up on it. For example, iBiquity's web site lists 860 WWDB in Philly and 930 WPAT and 1480 WZRC in the NYC area as current IBOC signals, but all of these stations haven't transmitted IBOC in almost a year now. This kind of track record does not inspire much confidence in the future of IBOC, at least on the AM band. |
#24
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On 15 Jun 2004 05:42:55 GMT, Alan Freed wrote:
There is also some evidence that IBOC interference can affect home metro groundwave coverage of adjacent channel stations. But not much. I can listen to the 1050 in the Riverside market within 10 miles of the KTNQ 50 kw IBOC site. I have to laugh at that (nothing personal, DE). More of this selective "acceptable interference" while NAB Eddie and his thugs continue their audacious lies about third adjacent LPFM. LPFM is to Eddie what Weapons Of Mass Destruction are to George W. Carry on. You have a point. As far as I'm concerned the NAB is correct about LPFM, and dead wrong about IBOC, especially AM IBOC. But whichever side of the debate you take, they're being inconsistent. Mark Howell |
#25
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Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be
"significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable" at its 0.75 mV/M contour. Yet today, with noise and all, anything beyond the 5 mv/m contour is pretty useless. But what if you're in Nowheresville, Wyoming, and a few 5 mV/m AM signals are all you've got? Tough luck, I guess? The AM IBOC scheme is chronically myopic. Each station using it shall only be concerned with their own primary local coverage area. But what about when the skywaves kick in, and somebody else's "useless" secondary coverage area suddenly lands smack-dab in the middle of your primary coverage area? The middle of the band is a prime example. Here in NJ at night, there's 1000 from Chicago, 1010 from NYC, 1020 from Pittsburgh, 1030 from Boston, 1040 from Des Moines, 1050 from NYC, 1060 from Philly, 1080 from Hartford, 1090 from Baltimore, 1100 from Cleveland, 1110 from Charlotte, 1130 from NYC, 1140 from Richmond, 1170 from Wheeling, 1180 from Rochester, 1190 from NYC and/or Ft. Wayne, 1210 from Philly, and 1220 from Cleveland. Put IBOC on all of these stations at night, and the mutual destruction would be horrendous! Some have suggested that allowance of nighttime IBOC, if any, should be considered on the basis of whether two new AM broadcast signals, on either side of the IBOC station's carrier and with the same power level and signal pattern as the IBOC sidebands would have, would be allowed according to the current FCC allocation scheme. In other words, if WXYZ at 1000 kHz wanted to broadcast IBOC at night, it would be judged on the basis of whether it would be legal to create two new stations, 990 WXYZ-Lower and 1010 WXYZ-Upper, with the same power level and signal pattern as the IBOC sidebands of WXYZ would have. In most cases, the answer would be an emphatic NO. For a 50,000 watt station, the total power used by the IBOC sidebands is about 1500 watts. Split that in half, and that's about 750 watts on each sideband. So, could 710 WOR fire up a new 750-watt station on 700 kHz and another new 750-watt station on 720 kHz at night? Obviously, no -- the new 700 kHz "station" would violate the protection that is afforded to 700 WLW, and likewise the new 720 kHz "station" would walk all over 720 WGN. So, given the same parameters of operation, how could WOR's IBOC sidebands (which can hardly be called "In-Band, On-Channel") ever be allowed at night? iBiquity and the NRSC think they should be... but what's going to happen in the real world? Mark my words -- if there's one thing that's going to finally kill off AM radio entirely in North America, it's definitely going to be IBOC. |
#26
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"WBRW" wrote in message ... Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be "significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable" at its 0.75 mV/M contour. Mark my words -- if there's one thing that's going to finally kill off AM radio entirely in North America, it's definitely going to be IBOC. You're preaching to the choir (or at least the priest sitting in the back of the sanctuary). Your analysis is dead-on, excepting that the Canadians determined long ago that AM was dying, and more recently, that FM should follow it into the grave as soon as it's reasonably possible. The U-S's actions will only expedite the patient's demise. Living in Pittsburgh, and as you mention KDKA (I used to work for them, at that), I can tell you that there were some winter mornings where WBZ's sidebands would blow the doors off of even the metro-grade signal....I hate to think what's going to happen when/if WBZ turns IBOC on at night. Then again, I don't really care. I gave up AM pretty much when the noise floor went to -10 on most channels. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- There must always be the appearance of lawfulness....especially when the law's being broken. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- For direct replies, take out the contents between the hyphens. -Really!- |
#27
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"WBRW" wrote in message ... How is AM stereo doing in the US? Just about dead. Few receivers available except for some OEM car radios, fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it. But there are still more than 10 times as many AM Stereo stations as there are AM stations using IBOC. Let's say there are turly 200 AM stereo stations left... you are saying there are fewer than 20 AM IBOC staitons. Just the company I am with has 5, and there are already about 50 on the air and another roughly 200 ordered and in construction. Since IBOC does not coexist with AM stereo, it's over. The IBOC stations are in major markets, and the AM stereos are generally X-band or oddball stations with a penchant for suffering. And as for "fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it", you could say that about IBOC -- within my listening range here in NJ, there are at least half a dozen stations which tested IBOC for a few weeks or months and then gave up on it. And which would they be? I don't know of that many in the whole country, and the few that there are had problems with thier antenna system, not with IBOC per se. For example, iBiquity's web site lists 860 WWDB in Philly and 930 WPAT and 1480 WZRC in the NYC area as current IBOC signals, but all of these stations haven't transmitted IBOC in almost a year now. This kind of track record does not inspire much confidence in the future of IBOC, at least on the AM band. The two NY stations have horrible DA systems, neither being optimized for low-Q and bandwidth. And both are ethnic, not candidates for effective use of IBOC when brokers bring thier programs on home made cassettes or CDs. |
#28
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"WBRW" wrote in message ... Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be "significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable" at its 0.75 mV/M contour. Yet today, with noise and all, anything beyond the 5 mv/m contour is pretty useless. But what if you're in Nowheresville, Wyoming, and a few 5 mV/m AM signals are all you've got? Tough luck, I guess? Yep. Skywave AM is essentially dead. I have driven at night across Wyoming, from the NW down to the SE. There are FM signals everywhere. In the daytime, many areas have no AM signals, while you can get a minimum of several FMs. FM, especially after 80-90, has given nearly every part of the country multiple FM signals, including areas where there was no day AM coverage. Radio is essentially a local, single market medium. It is definitely treated that way by advertisers. |
#29
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Just the company I am with has 5, and there are already about 50 on the air
and another roughly 200 ordered and in construction. Don't make the mistake of equating the number of stations which have ordered or installed IBOC equipment with the number of stations which are actually _using_ IBOC. AM stations which have abandoned use of IBOC (even if they may still have the equipment installed) include WLW, WKDL, WSB, WWDB, KIXI, WPAT, WWJ, KABL, WZRC, and WTOP. As of March, the grand total number of AM stations actually transmitting an IBOC signal was around 20. Perhaps there are a few more today, but I haven't heard of AM IBOC use growing by leaps and bounds in the past few months. Also, KNX, WMTR, WWTR, and WCTC may have filed a Digital Notification with the FCC, but as of yet, none of these are actually transmitting IBOC -- in fact, WCTC is still proudly broadcasting in AM Stereo, and in a recent conversation with their Program Director in which I discussed AM Stereo, he did not mention IBOC at all. I think Greater Media has notified ALL of their stations (AM and FM) as IBOC with the FCC, regardless if each station has any plans to actually install and use it or not. The two NY stations have horrible DA systems, neither being optimized for low-Q and bandwidth. Excuses, excuses. MOST stations in the country are "sub-optimal" and are likely to have many of these same flaws which will seriously inhibit their success with IBOC, or even make it impossible. (Even WOR says "our upper sideband does not exist north of Paramus, NJ" -- how's that for a lousy DA?) So if/when IBOC is mandated, what will happen to these stations? Rather than spend $100,000+ on a complete overhaul, I bet many would just go off the air -- which is both good and bad. Good, because it would finally "clean up" the AM band and restore useable nighttime coverage area on Class B and C signals. Bad, because just as many "good" stations (in terms of programming, ratings, and listenership) will be forced off the air as "bad" stations, and those that are left will be forced to use IBOC -- even though the "de-cluttering" of the band would once again make hi-fi analog AM a reality. |
#30
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Mark Howell had written:
| On 15 Jun 2004 05:42:55 GMT, Alan Freed wrote: | | There is also some evidence that IBOC interference can affect home | metro groundwave coverage of adjacent channel stations. | | But not much. I can listen to the 1050 in the Riverside market within 10 | miles of the KTNQ 50 kw IBOC site. | | I have to laugh at that (nothing personal, DE). More of this | selective "acceptable interference" while NAB Eddie and his thugs | continue their audacious lies about third adjacent LPFM. | | LPFM is to Eddie what Weapons Of Mass Destruction are to George W. | | Carry on. | | You have a point. As far as I'm concerned the NAB is correct about | LPFM, and dead wrong about IBOC, especially AM IBOC. But whichever | side of the debate you take, they're being inconsistent. | They're being inconsistent from a technical and engineering point of view. From a protectionist point of view, they're being quite consistent. It's an "I got mine and I'm going to keep it" stance, pure and simple. -- Mark Roberts |"I've posted this so many times I ought to have a Oakland, Cal.| keyboard macro...." NO HTML MAIL | -- Scott Fybush, on a radio-info message board |
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