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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On 21 Sep 2006 04:31:20 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in . com: Frank Gilliland wrote: Repeatable -- Not only am I making the final design public, the entire process is going to be public domain. You, OTOH, won't even release your schematic for fear of constructive criticism. **Your statement here has nothing to do with having a repeatable design.** Are you going to pull a Clinton and redefine "repeatable"? Reliable -- In case you haven't been paying attention, the fundamental concept of the design is longevity. These amps are going to be around and working long after you and your amps are dead and buried. **This is all talk right now. The fact that you will be using components such as connectors for board-to-board interfacing does not lend itself to high reliability.** I didn't suspect you were tnom but you just gave yourself away. Regardless, have you looked inside your computer lately? Did you notice all those 'unreliable' connectors? When was the last time you opened up a piece of electronic equipment with a major brand name like HP? Kenwood? GE? Motorola? Uniden? Do you really think that CONNECTORS are an issue? Naw..... you are just looking for a reason to whine. Profitable -- I have saved the best for last. The -best- thing about a modular design is that it is perfectly LEGAL!!!. I can manufacture and market the chassis and modules independently under the premise that no component, in and of itself, constitutes an amplifier. The only way the government can touch this is if they outlaw every aspect of hobby electronics and the sale of each and every component, which we all know isn't going to happen (unless Bush declares a national emergency right after the 2008 election, refuses to give up his office, and installs a Republican dictatorship). There isn't one business-person on the planet that wouldn't invest in a business that can open up an entire market that was previously illegal. That, my friend, is called "profitable". **Again, nothing but talk and very premature... you have no design yet to base any profitability claims.** On the contrary..... I have a technical concept and it is legally protected for 364 more days. I have business plan with high potential profits, as well as a research project for my Master's degree. I also have many years of experience running my own business and a very solid background in electronic engineering, mostly in the RF field. So you can believe me when I say that this amp is going to be built -and- marketed, either by me or someone else. Not only that, but it may also subjugate the statutory authority of the FCC, should they choose to pursue it. You, OTOH, have a run-of-the-mill CB amplifier that you can't legally produce or protect. The quality of your product sucks; if it was good it would sell itself and you wouldn't be spamming the newsgroup. You can't even afford decent advertising, let alone an attorney to advise you that this is an illegal and potentially expensive business venture which may result in a felony conviction. You have nothing and are risking everything, including your right to vote. Yet YOU are trying to lecture ME about "profitability"? ROTFLMMFAO!!!!! So go suck an egg, Brian (or tnom, or whatever alternative personality you are using when you read this). |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Jan Panteltje wrote: Telstar has been at it now for years..... At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions. :-) Jan figure is just about right... the profit margin is very low. Luckily, I don't do it for the money. My customers certainly know that... www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:25:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote in : On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:53:36 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland wrote in : knowing that your market is limited in both scope and time. Feel free to waste your time on a product that will soon be without a market. The only thing you have going for you is the price.... but then again, have you done any market research lately? Do you know what people will pay for a decent amp? Probably not. But I have. So now that the cat's out of the bag, how hard are you going to fight this? Or would you rather buy into it and make a ****load of money? Feel free to email me with your answer. There is a problem here with 'profit'. I just had a look at where I bought some other stuff, what amplifiers here go for: 100W MOSFET 42 Euro and 86 cent ( 54 $ and 44 cent). 500W 242 Euro and 93 cent (308 $ and 58 cent). 1000W 660 Euro and 15 cent (838 $ and 55 cent). Will indeed be hard to make any $$$$ on 100W amps. Not so different in the US I think, 1700W 650$: http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts 500W 329$ http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts I cannot make 100W for 54$, and I cannot make 1700W for 650$...... You have to count the hours too. Telstar has been at it now for years..... At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions. :-) OTOH as a learning exercise making them was great. Just that I stopped when they were at in the street with the radio car to arrest me, spotted them just in time.... OK maybe I had some harmonics... and one licensed amateur was upset.... when he did see me with those big toobes. 'If I hear you I will turn you in'. He was later overrun by a car IIRC. It somehow strengthened my faith in God. But that is all of the past, and not on 27MHz. Honestly. Damn are we honest today. That's friggin' twisted. I "found God" when I was in the USMC and lost a KY-57. Not a good thing to lose. I eventually found it, but ever since then I've been an atheist. Go figure..... |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:08 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in : On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:25:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote in : On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:53:36 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland wrote in : knowing that your market is limited in both scope and time. Feel free to waste your time on a product that will soon be without a market. The only thing you have going for you is the price.... but then again, have you done any market research lately? Do you know what people will pay for a decent amp? Probably not. But I have. So now that the cat's out of the bag, how hard are you going to fight this? Or would you rather buy into it and make a ****load of money? Feel free to email me with your answer. There is a problem here with 'profit'. I just had a look at where I bought some other stuff, what amplifiers here go for: 100W MOSFET 42 Euro and 86 cent ( 54 $ and 44 cent). 500W 242 Euro and 93 cent (308 $ and 58 cent). 1000W 660 Euro and 15 cent (838 $ and 55 cent). Will indeed be hard to make any $$$$ on 100W amps. Not so different in the US I think, 1700W 650$: http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts 500W 329$ http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts I cannot make 100W for 54$, and I cannot make 1700W for 650$...... You have to count the hours too. Telstar has been at it now for years..... At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions. :-) OTOH as a learning exercise making them was great. Just that I stopped when they were at in the street with the radio car to arrest me, spotted them just in time.... OK maybe I had some harmonics... and one licensed amateur was upset.... when he did see me with those big toobes. 'If I hear you I will turn you in'. He was later overrun by a car IIRC. It somehow strengthened my faith in God. But that is all of the past, and not on 27MHz. Honestly. Damn are we honest today. That's friggin' twisted. I "found God" when I was in the USMC and lost a KY-57. Not a good thing to lose. I eventually found it, but ever since then I've been an atheist. Go figure..... LOL, maybe it was used in-between by the Russians. God -to me- is an experience inside yourself that causes bliss, stronger then all the reasoning and thinking we do. But in those years (sixties) in the sense of 'well there must be one after all' and 'divine justice' etc. Or 'There but for fortune go you and I'. It looks somehow some people are destined for some things, it always works for them... Others do the same and fail. And noting in nature can stop that, or change that. Maybe that is cunning, some sort of awareness. Some become astronauts, some lose state secrets... some always end up with radio / tv equipment.... Maybe we have no free will, are a playing ball of all other forces in the universe, and can see in a clear moment where we are thrown. So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp. I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site. But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does. OK Bu |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp. I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site. But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does. It's certainly true no design is perfect. The existing SkyWave has proved to be a reliable design over the years. The new SkyWave basically just adds the temperature compesated biasing. By controlling the bias level when the amp heats up... this feature increases the overall reliability even further by allowing the heat sink to run significantly cooler. I don't waste resources on gimmicks like pre-amps that just lower the overall reliability and don't really do anything. If I add something to the design... I want it to be worth it. Where is it heading?... a future revision already on the drawing board has both over-temperature (using Analog devices TMP01) and excessive-swr shutdown (using Sage Labs Wireline). When these two features are incorporated... it should make the amplifier virtually indestructible to burning up or antenna mismatches. www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 08:30:25 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in om: Jan Panteltje wrote: So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp. I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site. But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does. It's certainly true no design is perfect. The existing SkyWave has proved to be a reliable design over the years. The new SkyWave basically just adds the temperature compesated biasing. By controlling the bias level when the amp heats up... this feature increases the overall reliability even further by allowing the heat sink to run significantly cooler. I don't waste resources on gimmicks like pre-amps that just lower the overall reliability and don't really do anything. If I add something to the design... I want it to be worth it. Where is it heading?... a future revision already on the drawing board has both over-temperature (using Analog devices TMP01) and excessive-swr shutdown (using Sage Labs Wireline). When these two features are incorporated... it should make the amplifier virtually indestructible to burning up or antenna mismatches. www.telstar-electronics.com SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz, http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/use/swrpwr.htm I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above link. So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track. No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps... You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC, and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage, then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with. In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power. No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software. A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days... I have tried to make some pics of the PCB of the SWR meter, but could not get close with this lens. Big view, out of focus: ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/1.jpg This one, close up lens, the wide track goes directly from RF in to RF out PL259, the thinner tracks next to it are the other windings: ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/2.jpg See through with flashlight behind PCB: ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/3.jpg All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Jan Panteltje wrote:
SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz, I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above link. So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track. No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps... You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC, and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage, then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with. In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power. No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software. A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days... All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB. You're right... it could be done on the PCB. The main advantages with the wireline are a great way of saving board space and is fully shielded. Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid some iterations of PCB layout I think. I have used them in the past with excellent results. www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 10:55:07 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in om: Jan Panteltje wrote: SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz, I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above link. So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track. No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps... You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC, and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage, then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with. In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power. No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software. A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days... All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB. You're right... it could be done on the PCB. The main advantages with the wireline are a great way of saving board space and is fully shielded. Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid some iterations of PCB layout I think. I have used them in the past with excellent results. www.telstar-electronics.com Sure, was just trying to up you profit $ by not buying into alien tech. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Reliable -- In case you haven't been paying attention, the fundamental concept of the design is longevity. These amps are going to be around and working long after you and your amps are dead and buried. **This is all talk right now. The fact that you will be using components such as connectors for board-to-board interfacing does not lend itself to high reliability.** I didn't suspect you were tnom but you just gave yourself away. Regardless, have you looked inside your computer lately? Did you notice all those 'unreliable' connectors? Computers become outdated in about five years. You would expect connectors to last at least that long. Mobile amps stay in use much longer so that your comparison to computer connectors is an apple to orange comparison. When was the last time you opened up a piece of electronic equipment with a major brand name like HP? Kenwood? GE? Motorola? Uniden? Do you really think that CONNECTORS are an issue? Naw..... you are just looking for a reason to whine. If you say your modular design is reliable then you must first define reliable............HP's, Kenwoods, Motorolas that have been in use for thirty years or more will all have connector problems. If those same connectors were solder joints you would eliminate that aspect of reliability. Amplifiers should be made to last even longer. Many forty year old amplifiers are still in use today. You should incorporate standard connectors for higher voltage lower current lines. Use a combination connector for any combination of higher current or lower voltage on a line. I don't have a specific brand or link but these combination connectors can be plugged in for ease of installation/adjustment and then soldered in place once you are certain that you are done with your adjustment/installation. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 10:55:07 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in om: Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid some iterations of PCB layout I think. As Frank mentioned, think modular for a moment. You would test this on a simple piece of single sided scrap board, (well I presume you can etch your own?) just for the SWR part. Once you have a SWR meter correctly working you can either take the layout and paste it into the main board, OK first time, or make some header pins and solder bridges and use it as sub-board, 'option'. I would do the first. Many things I designed are just a combination of little pre-tested parts. [That way] You get a library of circuits over time that works, like stones to build a house, or castle. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Telstar has been at it now for years..... At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions. :-) Bingo. :) |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Frank Gilliland wrote:
If I take your magic antenna and stroke it real hard with an old sock, will Barbara Eden spurt forth from the end and grant me three wishes? The 70's version, or the current one? ha |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:04:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote in : On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:08 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland wrote in : On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:25:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote in : snip Honestly. Damn are we honest today. That's friggin' twisted. I "found God" when I was in the USMC and lost a KY-57. Not a good thing to lose. I eventually found it, but ever since then I've been an atheist. Go figure..... LOL, maybe it was used in-between by the Russians. God -to me- is an experience inside yourself that causes bliss, stronger then all the reasoning and thinking we do. Yeah, I like Tequila too. But in those years (sixties) in the sense of 'well there must be one after all' and 'divine justice' etc. Or 'There but for fortune go you and I'. It looks somehow some people are destined for some things, it always works for them... Others do the same and fail. And noting in nature can stop that, or change that. Maybe that is cunning, some sort of awareness. Some become astronauts, some lose state secrets... some always end up with radio / tv equipment.... Maybe we have no free will, are a playing ball of all other forces in the universe, and can see in a clear moment where we are thrown. Nature/nurture, fate/volition, divine destiny or a dumb luck..... throw a handful of pennies in the air and you would expect half of them to turn up heads but they usually don't. One thing you be sure will happen and in which you can place your faith: They will fall. So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp. I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site. If an amplifier worked on 'nice looks' then I might have a different opinion. But they don't. They work on the well-established priciples of electronic engineering. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
True, if you expect the transistors to never be replaced. But that's
not the reality with CB amps. The owners like to swap transistors for more power. Either that, or they overdrive the transistors and blow them up. Replacing them tears up the board, which is why it's hard to find an old single-board amp with good traces. Point-to-point wiring eliminates this problem because both the transistors -and- the strips can be replaced. The servicable life of the amp is almost indefinite irrespective of the amount of work done to it. Transistors in amps normally have to be replaced because the amp has matching problems or inadequate cooling... or both. Almost all the bootleg amps I've worked with suffered from these problems. This causes the transistors to run red hot... and it cuts their life drastically. As for your statement about using point to point wiring... bad idea. This causes stray inductances and capacitances all over the place that cause RF oscillations. Oscillations contribute to failed power transistors, due to the tremendous power dissipation that is present during these oscillations. Many times these oscillations can't be heard on the air and do their damage without the operator ever knowing why the failure occured. http://www.telstar-electronics.com/S...202879ABTC.pdf |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
If you say your modular design is reliable then you must first define reliable............HP's, Kenwoods, Motorolas that have been in use for thirty years or more will all have connector problems. On one of my benches I have an HP-1707B, an Eico 950B, and a Heathkit IG-72. All are older than 30 years. I let my nephews use this bench. Nothing on the bench has connector problems. If there is one general type of electronic equipment that has a wide variety of -lots- of connectors it's the reel-to-reel deck. I have a large collection of vintage decks including Akai, Rheem/Roberts, TEAC, Sony, Wollensak, Ampex, Concertone, Viking.....etc, etc. Most of them are more than 30 years old and none of them have, or had, connector problems except for the occasional loose phone jack. When I was in the USMC the only connectors I had to replace were on coax cables (the operators were quite rough with them) and the big, bulky interconnection cables used on the command amtraks (which had about 20-30 radios and intercom units and were heavily abused). None of the connectors inside the radios ever needed replacement. When I was working at the commercial radio shop the story was about the same; mostly coax connectors and the occasional power plug. During my time at the station, the only connectors that needed replacement were ones that had frequent and punishing use, mostly 1/4" plugs & jacks and XLR's. I don't suspect that the connectors in this amp will get that kind of use. So for you to categorically declare that any equipment that has "been in use for thirty years or more will all have connector problems" is complete and utter bull****. Attention. Sell your solder stock. It will fall drastically. If those same connectors were solder joints you would eliminate that aspect of reliability. Wrong. Interconnection wires that are soldered have a high rate of failure in abusive environments. That's why auto manufacturers use connectors, even under the hood (and out of the nearly two dozen vehicles I've owned, none of them had any connection problems, either). I'll repeat myself. SELL YOUR SOLDER STOCK |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On 21 Sep 2006 17:31:24 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in .com: True, if you expect the transistors to never be replaced. But that's not the reality with CB amps. The owners like to swap transistors for more power. Either that, or they overdrive the transistors and blow them up. Replacing them tears up the board, which is why it's hard to find an old single-board amp with good traces. Point-to-point wiring eliminates this problem because both the transistors -and- the strips can be replaced. The servicable life of the amp is almost indefinite irrespective of the amount of work done to it. Transistors in amps normally have to be replaced because the amp has matching problems or inadequate cooling... or both. Almost all the bootleg amps I've worked with suffered from these problems. This causes the transistors to run red hot... and it cuts their life drastically. Most of the bootleg amps are usually overdriven. For example, the Pride 100 is rated for 100 watts output. But most ampheads don't know that 100 watts means the peak power output, and when running AM they need to reduce the input power until the output is only 25 watts (unfortunately, the word "attenuator" isn't part of the amphead lexicon). Then they key down for far longer than the designed duty cycle permits ("duty cycle" also not a part of amphead vocabulary). And -that's- why the transistors are frequently cooked. And -that's- why this amp is going to have a variable attenuator on the front end, a thermostatically controlled fan, and will include very detailed instructions on how to set up the amp for different operating modes. As far as "matching problems", if you are referring to mismatched gain in transistor pairs, that only causes harmonics. If the mismatch is great enough to cause one transistor to run hotter than the other, that would be due either to component failure or ****-poor quality control. As for your statement about using point to point wiring... bad idea. This causes stray inductances and capacitances all over the place that cause RF oscillations. Oscillations contribute to failed power transistors, due to the tremendous power dissipation that is present during these oscillations. Many times these oscillations can't be heard on the air and do their damage without the operator ever knowing why the failure occured. Not only are you repeating yourself, but you are -way- out in left field with this concern..... Power RF bipolars are inherently stable and not likely to oscillate (assuming no wiring errors) because (a) the input impedance is so low that stray RF is going to be heavily damped, and (b) the power gain isn't high enough to overcome the low impedance at the base. You have to intentionally force these things to oscillate, and even then they won't start without a solid kick. Ironically, the only bipolar amp I have seen that -did- oscillate was a single-board design that someone tried to modify for more power [insert Tim Taylor grunt here]. FET's are different because of the high input impedance at the gate. But point-to-point wiring has been used both successfully and reliably in commercial high-power RF transmitters ever since Molly Brown took a ride in a lifeboat. Oscillation problems were resolved long ago when tubes were the only choice. Damping isn't difficult, and shielding between the input and output circuits is a common practice with both FET's and tubes. All you need is a thin sheet of copper, aluminum, or even a blank PC board. Got tin snips? |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Frank Gilliland wrote:
As far as "matching problems", if you are referring to mismatched gain in transistor pairs, that only causes harmonics. If the mismatch is great enough to cause one transistor to run hotter than the other, that would be due either to component failure or ****-poor quality control. No, I'm talking about impedance matching problems. On the input is not a big issue... only reducing the available drive... but a mismatch on the output is critical... and causes big problems with excessive transistor heating... leading to premature failure. www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On 22 Sep 2006 04:55:24 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in .com: Frank Gilliland wrote: As far as "matching problems", if you are referring to mismatched gain in transistor pairs, that only causes harmonics. If the mismatch is great enough to cause one transistor to run hotter than the other, that would be due either to component failure or ****-poor quality control. No, I'm talking about impedance matching problems. On the input is not a big issue... only reducing the available drive... but a mismatch on the output is critical... and causes big problems with excessive transistor heating... leading to premature failure. Ok. So what does that have to do with the difference between a PCB mounted amp and a chassis-wired amp? |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Frank Gilliland wrote:
Ok. So what does that have to do with the difference between a PCB mounted amp and a chassis-wired amp? I think the problem here is always one of repeatability. Anyone can fiddle around for a time impedance matching and make one amp work... but when you plan to make a number of units... having wires running all around, and putting components in different physical locations unit-to-unit makes performance unpredictable. There is another problem that shouldn't be overlooked about the wiring method... that is the problem of manufacturability. The PCB version is usually much easier and faster to build... not a insignificant advantage when building numerous units. www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 02:31:44 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote: On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:49:01 -0400, wrote in : snip Your belief that a properly soldered connection is more likely to fail than a connector tells us a lot about the success of your amp. This amp symbolizes your life and is doomed from the start because of your false beliefs. Your long stream of failures continue. Actually the solder joint doesn't fail. The wire itself fails because of frequent motion and repeated bending of the wire at the weakest point -- where the wire is bare of insulation just above the solder joint. Anybody who has ever owned a portable radio (or anything else) with a 9V battery clip knows exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm sure you do too. The best connectors are the ones that clamp both the wire and the insulation. Connectors such as IDC, SMA/B/C, BNC, Molex pin & socket, and even common crimp-type ring/fork/spade/hook connectors are all superior to just soldering the wire to the board. But nice try. It sounds like your amp can't be soldered because it's unstable. (physically) Are you sure that the reason automobile manufacturers use connectors is because they believe a connector is more reliable than a properly done solder joint? |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On 22 Sep 2006 05:31:06 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in .com: Frank Gilliland wrote: Ok. So what does that have to do with the difference between a PCB mounted amp and a chassis-wired amp? I think the problem here is always one of repeatability. Anyone can fiddle around for a time impedance matching and make one amp work... but when you plan to make a number of units... having wires running all around, and putting components in different physical locations unit-to-unit makes performance unpredictable. Well, you think wrong. I tried to explain this before but I guess it didn't sink in the first two times, so let me make this -really- simple: http://bama.sbc.edu/ Many of those radios were (and still are) considered by many to be some of the best ever built. If you really think their chassis wiring construction made their performance "unpredictable" then there are only three possible conclusions: One, that your experience is severely limited; two, that your sanity is in doubt; and three, that you are digging for the lamest of excuses to discredit me at the expense of your own credibility. I'm guessing the prize is behind door number three. There is another problem that shouldn't be overlooked about the wiring method... that is the problem of manufacturability. The PCB version is usually much easier and faster to build... not a insignificant advantage when building numerous units. Haste makes waste. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:14:43 -0400, wrote in
: On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 02:31:44 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote: On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:49:01 -0400, wrote in : snip Your belief that a properly soldered connection is more likely to fail than a connector tells us a lot about the success of your amp. This amp symbolizes your life and is doomed from the start because of your false beliefs. Your long stream of failures continue. Actually the solder joint doesn't fail. The wire itself fails because of frequent motion and repeated bending of the wire at the weakest point -- where the wire is bare of insulation just above the solder joint. Anybody who has ever owned a portable radio (or anything else) with a 9V battery clip knows exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm sure you do too. The best connectors are the ones that clamp both the wire and the insulation. Connectors such as IDC, SMA/B/C, BNC, Molex pin & socket, and even common crimp-type ring/fork/spade/hook connectors are all superior to just soldering the wire to the board. But nice try. It sounds like your amp can't be soldered because it's unstable. (physically) If that's the way it sounds to you then maybe it's time for you to think about getting a hearing aid. Are you sure that the reason automobile manufacturers use connectors is because they believe a connector is more reliable than a properly done solder joint? No, it also has to do with servicability, which is another reason -not- to solder the modules together. Now.... do you have an LEGITIMATE concerns or are you just trolling? |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Are you sure that the reason automobile manufacturers use connectors is because they believe a connector is more reliable than a properly done solder joint? No, it also has to do with servicability, which is another reason -not- to solder the modules together. Now.... do you have an LEGITIMATE concerns or are you just trolling? You actually suggested that for reliability reasons a connector is preferred over a proper solder joint. A quote from you: " Interconnection wires that are soldered have a high rate of failure in abusive environments. That's why auto manufacturers use connectors, even under the hood" Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Many connectors are these days just pressed on (ethernet, phone, etc) and just as or more reliable then soldered connectors. Over thirty years? You can slow down but you can't stop galvanic action, oxidation or migration of foreign materials. If practical use a proper soldered connection to eliminate most of this. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. I'll tell ya what, tnom/Brian/whoever: Both of you remember that I have made challenges to you before. Brian refused accept my challenge to test his claims about the harmonic specifications of his amp, and tnom refused to accept my challenge to test his magic antenna (both challenges are still open, BTW). So here's a REALLY SIMPLE challenge to both of you, assuming you really are two different people (which I seriously doubt): Changing the subject now? You are the one who has to disprove me. Put up or shut up. Show me a connector of ANY age (a connector as I specified previously, where the insulation is mechanically secured to the connector with the wire) that failed due to lack of structural integrity and I'll reconsider your argument. I never said structural integrity. I said galvanic action, oxidation and migration of foreign materials. You only specified specific connectors after you stated that connectors are more reliable than solder joints. I take it that this means that your imaginary amp will use these specified connectors because you know as I know that great care must be taken with connectors that pass high current or low voltage. If you want them to have any possibility to be sound after thirty years of use you must use good connectors. Because after 30+ years of experience on hundreds upon hundreds of different pieces of electronic equipment, from televisions to broadcast transmitters to transistor radios to computers to military radio and telegraph equipment to you name it, I have never seen one fail. Not one. And while you are looking, keep a tally on how many wires you find dangling free after breaking off a board, or hanging on to a solder joint by just a strand or two. Any wire, using a connector or soldered, can break loose if allowed to move repeatedly. Until you find one, I'll consider this issue resolved. You are full of crap if you are suggesting that thirty or forty year old equipment will not have connector reliability problems when compared to similar equipment with solder connections. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message ... On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:09:50 -0400, wrote in : Are you sure that the reason automobile manufacturers use connectors is because they believe a connector is more reliable than a properly done solder joint? No, it also has to do with servicability, which is another reason -not- to solder the modules together. Now.... do you have an LEGITIMATE concerns or are you just trolling? You actually suggested that for reliability reasons a connector is preferred over a proper solder joint. A quote from you: " Interconnection wires that are soldered have a high rate of failure in abusive environments. That's why auto manufacturers use connectors, even under the hood" Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. I'll tell ya what, tnom/Brian/whoever: Both of you remember that I have made challenges to you before. Brian refused accept my challenge to test his claims about the harmonic specifications of his amp, and tnom refused to accept my challenge to test his magic antenna (both challenges are still open, BTW). So here's a REALLY SIMPLE challenge to both of you, assuming you really are two different people (which I seriously doubt): Show me a connector of ANY age (a connector as I specified previously, where the insulation is mechanically secured to the connector with the wire) that failed due to lack of structural integrity and I'll reconsider your argument. Because after 30+ years of experience on hundreds upon hundreds of different pieces of electronic equipment, from televisions to broadcast transmitters to transistor radios to computers to military radio and telegraph equipment to you name it, I have never seen one fail. Not one. And while you are looking, keep a tally on how many wires you find dangling free after breaking off a board, or hanging on to a solder joint by just a strand or two. Until you find one, I'll consider this issue resolved. Frank, give Brian a break, he's still trying to figure out how to make a 3x3 piece of metal work for a ground plane with the Wilson 1000. He's in way over his head lately. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On 22 Sep 2006 04:55:24 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote: +++Frank Gilliland wrote: +++ As far as "matching problems", if you are referring to mismatched gain +++ in transistor pairs, that only causes harmonics. If the mismatch is +++ great enough to cause one transistor to run hotter than the other, +++ that would be due either to component failure or ****-poor quality +++ control. +++ +++No, I'm talking about impedance matching problems. On the input is not +++a big issue... only reducing the available drive... but a mismatch on +++the output is critical... and causes big problems with excessive +++transistor heating... leading to premature failure. +++ +++www.telstar-electronics.com ************** Mismatches only stress transisitors when they are driven beyond the manufacturer's reccommended operating points. Like Frank said, ampheads don't care about specifications. If a transistor is speced for 100 watts then getting 150 watts out it is better. james |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
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Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:43:01 -0400) it happened
wrote in : Many connectors are these days just pressed on (ethernet, phone, etc) and just as or more reliable then soldered connectors. Over thirty years? Possibly You can slow down but you can't stop galvanic action, oxidation or migration of foreign materials. When the same materials are used, say copper clamped in copper (as in the cable), and gold touching gold (as in the connector surfaces), and if no motion (any connector is limited by a number of matings), there will be little 'migration', no galvanic action. Oxidation may happen and does any time with copper, and the same with solder! If you look a bit at the practical side, I had a TV repair shop for many years. The MOST frequent fault was, in TVs with connectors for the modules, that the connectors pins became un-soldered in the main PCB, due to thermal cycling. The copper pin expands, it pushes the solder outwards around it, then it contracts, the solder stays where it is. The same happens with other components that get hot, like coils, transformers, transistors, and if you can still remember these, ALWAYS with tube sockets soldered in PCBs. I have made good money repairing TVs by just re-soldering the boards. People who ever worked with wire-wrap will know that wire-wrap is more reliable then soldering, and I KNOW soldering. It is exactly the fact that solder - copper or whatever layer that can cause problems. But that does not mean you should not solder. When I learned soldering, you had to put the wire through the hole, wrap it around the pin or whatever, and _then_ solder it. To prevent shearing of. You like soldering, I will show you something, now I have to go to the attic to find some board, be right back, OK, have it, now some pictures: Z80 processor board, component side: ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/z80_board.jpg same, _wiring_ side: ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/wiring1.jpg ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/wiring2.jpg To give you an idea, it is about 544 connections, all fly-by-wire so to speak, none are marked, this board still works after what is it? 20 years? Has been upgraded for some more newer chips 10 years ago or so. Was a computer prototype, build in 3 evenings. You will note it collected dust, has been dropped, thrown around, abused. and still all wires are intact, 544 solder connections by hand with multi- strand cable, you need 1) good vision, 2) steady hand, 3) good soldering iron, 4) absolute memory what you did already route. In this time, when I did this sort of thing, there were no user affordable PCB CAD programs, let alone user affordable multi-layers PCBs. So, anyways, I think I know about soldering, like it even, so I am not biased if I say it is not perfect. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (22 Sep 2006 16:11:13 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in . com: wrote: Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. Right on... 100% wrong, see my other posting. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:20:20 -0400) it happened
wrote in : You are full of crap if you are suggesting that thirty or forty year old equipment will not have connector reliability problems when compared to similar equipment with solder connections. mmm, that board I did show you in the other post? The 64 pole ac connector works 100% after 20 years. And likely always will. Even if you put it on a vibration bench where all the wring will fall off. |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
wrote:
Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. wrote in Right on... Jan Panteltje wrote: 100% wrong, see my other posting. Jan, you saying that a connector is more reliable than a solder connection in my opinion is outrageous. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. You should be able to provide us a few web sites... www.telstar-electronics.com |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
On a sunny day (23 Sep 2006 11:49:37 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in .com: wrote: Give us a break. When practical a properly done solder joint is always more reliable than a connector. wrote in Right on... Jan Panteltje wrote: 100% wrong, see my other posting. Jan, you saying that a connector is more reliable than a solder connection in my opinion is outrageous. You are free to your opinion, please read my other posting, look at the pictures provided too. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. I suggest you learn how to use google. The URL is: www.google.com You _will_ have to specify the context of your tests, that is the scientific method. I _never_ did say 'any connector' is more reliable then 'any solder connection'. So define your connector and define your solder connection. You are just generalising the subject, YOU make claims that are not specified, so if you have some experience, other then mains plugs, let us hear about it. And mains plugs do not normally fail, at least not over here. Bye ;-) |
Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message oups.com... Frank Gilliland wrote: Ok. So what does that have to do with the difference between a PCB mounted amp and a chassis-wired amp? I think the problem here is always one of repeatability. Anyone can fiddle around for a time impedance matching and make one amp work... but when you plan to make a number of units... having wires running all around, and putting components in different physical locations unit-to-unit makes performance unpredictable. There is another problem that shouldn't be overlooked about the wiring method... that is the problem of manufacturability. The PCB version is usually much easier and faster to build... not a insignificant advantage when building numerous units. www.telstar-electronics.com Point to point wiring does not have to mean the birds nest constuction you describe. RF wiring could well be stamped out metal pieces mounted on Teflon or ceramic. very repeatable, very stable. It could also mean the isolted pad constuction where smalll sqares of PC board are glued to a substrate. This has proven reliable, obviously an improvement over PC board material could be found.and better mounting methods than glue. There are two big problems I see with most amp designs. One is biasing, even the cheapest Boomer would be much improved if it had an adequae bias circuit. The other is proper setup. I doubt if someone mostly interested in how well they can make the power meter swing will pay much attention to setup instuctions. Attenuators on the front end would be a joke. How would establish proper drive for a given setup with only a cheap power/VSWR meter. FET amps really dont have a stability problem if properly designed. The idea of using a switching power supply to take the voltage up to 50 volts or more is a good one that has already been proven in audio amps. It is impossible to make an amp idiotproof, just when you thingk you have along comes a better idiot. |
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