Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jimmie D wrote:
Point to point wiring does not have to mean the birds nest constuction you
describe. RF wiring could well be stamped out metal pieces mounted on Teflon
or ceramic. very repeatable, very stable. It could also mean the isolted pad
constuction where smalll sqares of PC board are glued to a substrate. This
has proven reliable, obviously an improvement over PC board material could
be found.and better mounting methods than glue.

Yes, I agree with you. The problem is that these amp builders are not
using the point-to-point methods you describe. From what I can see...
they are gluing pieces of copper clad board (via double sticky tape) to
a non-etched copper-clad board. They have no regard for characteristic
impedance of trace widths
(http://www.pcb123.com/help/calculators/microstrip.html). I also am not
really crazy about the longevity of double-sticky tape... LOL


There are two big problems I see with most amp designs. One is biasing, even
the cheapest Boomer would be much improved if it had an adequae bias
circuit. The other is proper setup. I doubt if someone mostly interested in
how well they can make the power meter swing will pay much attention to
setup instuctions. Attenuators on the front end would be a joke. How would
establish proper drive for a given setup with only a cheap power/VSWR meter.


Agreed, my new amplifier design
(http://www.telstar-electronics.com/S...202879ABTC.pdf) now has
thermal tracking class AB biasing. I also don't use any front-end
attenuators. Like you say, proper setup is critical to any good
station. The operator needs to pay attention to the drive requirements
of the amplifier... and should adjust the driver accordingly.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 07:20:57 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jimmie D wrote:
Point to point wiring does not have to mean the birds nest constuction you
describe. RF wiring could well be stamped out metal pieces mounted on Teflon
or ceramic. very repeatable, very stable. It could also mean the isolted pad
constuction where smalll sqares of PC board are glued to a substrate. This
has proven reliable, obviously an improvement over PC board material could
be found.and better mounting methods than glue.

Yes, I agree with you. The problem is that these amp builders are not
using the point-to-point methods you describe. From what I can see...
they are gluing pieces of copper clad board (via double sticky tape) to
a non-etched copper-clad board. They have no regard for characteristic
impedance of trace widths
(http://www.pcb123.com/help/calculators/microstrip.html).

At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.


I also am not
really crazy about the longevity of double-sticky tape... LOL

Maybe it is epoxy glue, how would you know.

Agreed, my new amplifier design
(http://www.telstar-electronics.com/S...202879ABTC.pdf) now has
thermal tracking class AB biasing.

Yes that is good.

I also don't use any front-end
attenuators. Like you say, proper setup is critical to any good
station. The operator needs to pay attention to the drive requirements
of the amplifier... and should adjust the driver accordingly.

There are many sets on the market, somebody will drive it with too much,
and somebody else will drive it with too little.

Tough world out there.
;-)

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.

Huh???? Since when is impedance matching at RF frequencies not
important? Then maybe you could tell us at what frequency it is
important... LOL

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 10:03:00 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.

Huh???? Since when is impedance matching at RF frequencies not
important? Then maybe you could tell us at what frequency it is
important... LOL

You really have no experience now have you?
First the little PCBs just form some extra capacitance to ground.
There is no transmission line.
And you may need that anyways, why else solder those caps over your
output transformer.
Second, for a transmission line L and C are important, and L is close
to zero here, and f is very low.
The 'length' of the track is very very short in their design.
You can hardly speak of a transmission line at all at 27MHz.
Not a significant part of the wavelength anyways.
'Transmission line' properly matched only implies no refections
and some known impedance after all.
And where is this 'line'?

You mentioned that calculator, but did you ever use it?
If so what did you enter for the constants?

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 10:03:00 -0700) it happened "Telstar
Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.

Huh???? Since when is impedance matching at RF frequencies not
important? Then maybe you could tell us at what frequency it is
important... LOL

You really have no experience now have you?
First the little PCBs just form some extra capacitance to ground.
There is no transmission line.
And you may need that anyways, why else solder those caps over your
output transformer.
Second, for a transmission line L and C are important, and L is close
to zero here, and f is very low.
The 'length' of the track is very very short in their design.
You can hardly speak of a transmission line at all at 27MHz.
Not a significant part of the wavelength anyways.
'Transmission line' properly matched only implies no refections
and some known impedance after all.
And where is this 'line'?

You mentioned that calculator, but did you ever use it?
If so what did you enter for the constants?

Obviously you kneel before the SWR gods. You dont have to have a transmision
line to have a matching problem. Matching means to have the output impedance
of a driving stage equal to the input impedance of a driven stage so maximum
power is transfered with minimum distortion. Nothing was said of
transmission lines or SWR.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frank Gilliland wrote:
* Power supply module (optional). Power transistors that are designed
for higher voltage are more linear and -much- more reliable than those
designed to operate on 12-14 volts. This switching power supply bumps
up the voltage to 28 or 50 VDC and allows the use of such transistors.

Frank, just how much do you think this amp is going to cost? Sounds
like It's going to be out of this world with all the stuff you are
talking about...

www.telstar-electronics.com

50 volt power supplies are very cheap to build. if you have the right
connection with parts suppliers less than $10.or less figure $ 20 max. Money
spent here will also save money elsewhere in the amp. Its a pain in the but
to build a decent amp that works of of 12 volts. 50 and 100 volt amps are
easy.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:50:55 -0400) it happened "Jimmie D"
wrote in
:


"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 10:03:00 -0700) it happened "Telstar
Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.

Huh???? Since when is impedance matching at RF frequencies not
important? Then maybe you could tell us at what frequency it is
important... LOL

You really have no experience now have you?
First the little PCBs just form some extra capacitance to ground.
There is no transmission line.
And you may need that anyways, why else solder those caps over your
output transformer.
Second, for a transmission line L and C are important, and L is close
to zero here, and f is very low.
The 'length' of the track is very very short in their design.
You can hardly speak of a transmission line at all at 27MHz.
Not a significant part of the wavelength anyways.
'Transmission line' properly matched only implies no refections
and some known impedance after all.
And where is this 'line'?

You mentioned that calculator, but did you ever use it?
If so what did you enter for the constants?

Obviously you kneel before the SWR gods. You dont have to have a transmision
line to have a matching problem. Matching means to have the output impedance
of a driving stage equal to the input impedance of a driven stage so maximum
power is transfered with minimum distortion. Nothing was said of
transmission lines or SWR.

Oh I am not questioning 'impedance matching', but some points.
1) He refers to that calculator, that also asks for a track length and
load capacitance. In case of distribited loads, and there are of course.
So we need his numbers.

2) The impedance is complex, not simple 'Ohm', and in this case nearly
100% a capacitance, basically the same (leaving out the extra value of the
tape or glue), as between a top and bottom PCB layer, you take the surface
area, and get a capacitance, it is almost a square 'pad' they use (see
pictures) not a stripline! (and so no transmission line with separate
in and outputs either).

So we ask him again: What values did you enter, and what dielectric constant
for the PCB material and 'tape'.

Yes SWR must match but really that is matching of the antenna to the
transmitter, we are here internally, at the most, if there was one!!!!,
we were here in the C of an CLC Pi filter, and impedance matching.
And that is linked to SWR for a known 50 Ohm load in this specific case,
if the antenna is also 50Ohm.
So, any Pi filter in the output could 'match' the 50 Ohm antenna to any
other (higher or lower) transmitter output impedance.
If the input C (the PCB pad cap) changes, the L and output C of the Pi filter
will need to be adjusted.
He does not provide a diagram, but question arises if he HAS a Pi filter
to reduce harmonics.

How ever you slice it, teh few extra Pf from those pads wll make little
difference, maybe he even has a double sided PCB with the same problem
of capacitance to the backplane.
It is all just a way to frabricate as many posts pushing his amp as possible,
right or not makes no difference, it is not some open source project, secret
diagram, just a marketing troll.
No problem with me, but I'd love to hear wha the entered in that calculator,
at least if you recommend something you should have used it once.....

So, now for the next episode of 'the better amp'.
Grin

Sorry it is late, need to get up in a few hours,

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

wrote in message
...

Many connectors are these days just pressed on (ethernet, phone, etc) and
just
as or more reliable then soldered connectors.

Over thirty years?

You can slow down but you can't stop galvanic action, oxidation or
migration of foreign materials. If practical use a proper soldered
connection to eliminate most of this.

Who really cares about over 30 years solder or connectors will both last a
long time, both the point and the argument are moot.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Jimmie D" wrote in message
...

"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frank Gilliland wrote:
* Power supply module (optional). Power transistors that are designed
for higher voltage are more linear and -much- more reliable than those
designed to operate on 12-14 volts. This switching power supply bumps
up the voltage to 28 or 50 VDC and allows the use of such transistors.

Frank, just how much do you think this amp is going to cost? Sounds
like It's going to be out of this world with all the stuff you are
talking about...

www.telstar-electronics.com

50 volt power supplies are very cheap to build. if you have the right
connection with parts suppliers less than $10.or less figure $ 20 max.
Money spent here will also save money elsewhere in the amp. Its a pain in
the but to build a decent amp that works of of 12 volts. 50 and 100 volt
amps are easy.


When it comes to designing a good amp there is no reason to reinvent the
wheel. There is better stuff out there to use than there was 30 years ago
and its much cheaper now than ever but for the most part amp design hasnt
changed much. For what improvement have been made I see few amp builders
taking advantage of them, the same crap designs that have been around for 30
years Most people who can get an amp to work at all think they have done it
RIGHT. I see people who have tried to get 10KW out of a 12volt amp and my
hat's off to those that pulled it off but this is still some **** poor
engineering

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jimmie D wrote:
You dont have to have a transmision
line to have a matching problem. Matching means to have the output impedance
of a driving stage equal to the input impedance of a driven stage so maximum
power is transfered with minimum distortion. Nothing was said of
transmission lines or SWR.

Right on Jim... impedance matching is always important for te reason
you stated.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we ask him again: What values did you enter, and what dielectric constant
for the PCB material and 'tape'.

You are getting to be a real pain in the keyster... LOL

I use 0.062" 1oz FR4 for my designs.
The dielectric constant of FR4 is about 4.6
Thickness of 1oz copper is about 0.0014"

So with a ground plane on one side of the board... the width of the
trace to maintain a 50 Ohm characteristic impedance is about 0.113"
wide.

P.S. Have no idea what tape you're talking about...

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:21:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote in :

On a sunny day (Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:50:55 -0400) it happened "Jimmie D"
wrote in
:


"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 10:03:00 -0700) it happened "Telstar
Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
At 27MHz 50Ohm this is not critical.

Huh???? Since when is impedance matching at RF frequencies not
important? Then maybe you could tell us at what frequency it is
important... LOL

You really have no experience now have you?
First the little PCBs just form some extra capacitance to ground.
There is no transmission line.
And you may need that anyways, why else solder those caps over your
output transformer.
Second, for a transmission line L and C are important, and L is close
to zero here, and f is very low.
The 'length' of the track is very very short in their design.
You can hardly speak of a transmission line at all at 27MHz.
Not a significant part of the wavelength anyways.
'Transmission line' properly matched only implies no refections
and some known impedance after all.
And where is this 'line'?

You mentioned that calculator, but did you ever use it?
If so what did you enter for the constants?

Obviously you kneel before the SWR gods. You dont have to have a transmision
line to have a matching problem. Matching means to have the output impedance
of a driving stage equal to the input impedance of a driven stage so maximum
power is transfered with minimum distortion. Nothing was said of
transmission lines or SWR.

Oh I am not questioning 'impedance matching', but some points.
1) He refers to that calculator, that also asks for a track length and
load capacitance. In case of distribited loads, and there are of course.
So we need his numbers.

2) The impedance is complex, not simple 'Ohm', and in this case nearly
100% a capacitance, basically the same (leaving out the extra value of the
tape or glue), as between a top and bottom PCB layer, you take the surface
area, and get a capacitance, it is almost a square 'pad' they use (see
pictures) not a stripline! (and so no transmission line with separate
in and outputs either).

So we ask him again: What values did you enter, and what dielectric constant
for the PCB material and 'tape'.
snip


I see everyone is reverting back to one of the major pitfalls of
single-board amps: soldering high-power devices right to copper-clad
board. My intent was to AVOID this by using solid copper strap, but
it's clear that people are determined to use the cheapest materials
possible. Therefore.....

I'm going to eliminate soldering of the power transistors completely.
They will be 'wired' using 304 stainless CLAMPS secured to the chassis
with teflon standoffs. These clamps will not only provide a much
stronger mechanical connection, but will also, in conjunction with the
gold-plated flags, eliminate ANY possibility of corrosion in damp
(spilled coffee) environments. They will also permit removal of the
transistors without de-soldering, prevent heat damage due to some big
dummy that solders with an arc welder, and help to -dissipate- heat
during normal (and overdriven) operation.

As for cost, the prototype can be cut from a standard beer keg, and in
mass production they will cost only a few cents each.

Now that -this- aspect of the design has been finalized, it's time to
move along.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 16:47:45 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we ask him again: What values did you enter, and what dielectric constant
for the PCB material and 'tape'.

You are getting to be a real pain in the keyster... LOL

We wil get you to publish the diagram too ...:-)

I use 0.062" 1oz FR4 for my designs.
The dielectric constant of FR4 is about 4.6
Thickness of 1oz copper is about 0.0014"

So with a ground plane on one side of the board... the width of the
trace to maintain a 50 Ohm characteristic impedance is about 0.113"
wide.

OK, now you have a 50 Ohm track, and *where* do you put it?
The only place you could possible use it is to the output connector,
and that connection happens to be a *wire*.

Have a look at those pictures again, the extra PCBs you were _originally_
referring to as needing that website calculator, are just simple solderpads.
The rest is normal wiring.

P.S. Have no idea what tape you're talking about...

The double sided tape you accused them of using to glue on those extra boards
that are used as solder pads.

And, I have to say that .113 inch equals around 3mm width.. your transistor
connections and the stuff they are soldered to on your board are wider..

But you score on one point, you caused 2 more posts on the subject of
'Telstar amp'.

You can score a *lot more* reactions by publishing the diagram, people
will have questions and suggestions and maybe even [positive] critism
if you do.
So let's have it OK?
You are no chicken to show it no? It is free of flaws I am sure?
Come on Brian, it is not THAT different from the appication notes now is it?

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:27:16 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

These clamps will not only provide a much
stronger mechanical connection, but will also, in conjunction with the
gold-plated flags, eliminate ANY possibility of corrosion in damp
(spilled coffee) environments.

I have a satellite dish motor (outside), opened it up, they have immersed
the PCB in wax (parrafine?) to make it corrosion proof.
It is just a very thin layer that covers all components.
Seems to work.
Even though I pricked the scope through it at some points to measure things.
:-)

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
P.S. Have no idea what tape you're talking about...

The double sided tape you accused them of using to glue on those extra boards
that are used as solder pads.

What about it... You know I don't use that approach on my designs...
that method is reserved for all the great amplifier manufacturer's like
DaveMade and Xforce... LOL

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:58:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

+++On a sunny day (Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:27:16 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:
+++
+++These clamps will not only provide a much
+++stronger mechanical connection, but will also, in conjunction with the
+++gold-plated flags, eliminate ANY possibility of corrosion in damp
+++(spilled coffee) environments.
+++
+++I have a satellite dish motor (outside), opened it up, they have immersed
+++the PCB in wax (parrafine?) to make it corrosion proof.
+++It is just a very thin layer that covers all components.
+++Seems to work.
+++Even though I pricked the scope through it at some points to measure things.
+++:-)
*****************

More like a conformal coat material other than parafine wax. That
stuff is to flammable to screw with when in liquid form. There are
numerous coatings for printed wire boards that can be used. They range
from clear to opaque. Some are soft and maliable to hard and not so
easy to remove.

These DO NOT offer a hermetic seal and can allow moisture into the
printed wire board. Only hermetic seal would be to place the board in
a solder sealed box that may or maynot contain a inert gas inside.

james

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (24 Sep 2006 16:47:45 -0700) it happened "Telstar
Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we ask him again: What values did you enter, and what dielectric
constant
for the PCB material and 'tape'.

You are getting to be a real pain in the keyster... LOL

We wil get you to publish the diagram too ...:-)

I use 0.062" 1oz FR4 for my designs.
The dielectric constant of FR4 is about 4.6
Thickness of 1oz copper is about 0.0014"

So with a ground plane on one side of the board... the width of the
trace to maintain a 50 Ohm characteristic impedance is about 0.113"
wide.

OK, now you have a 50 Ohm track, and *where* do you put it?
The only place you could possible use it is to the output connector,
and that connection happens to be a *wire*.

Have a look at those pictures again, the extra PCBs you were _originally_
referring to as needing that website calculator, are just simple
solderpads.
The rest is normal wiring.

P.S. Have no idea what tape you're talking about...

The double sided tape you accused them of using to glue on those extra
boards
that are used as solder pads.

And, I have to say that .113 inch equals around 3mm width.. your
transistor
connections and the stuff they are soldered to on your board are wider..

But you score on one point, you caused 2 more posts on the subject of
'Telstar amp'.

You can score a *lot more* reactions by publishing the diagram, people
will have questions and suggestions and maybe even [positive] critism
if you do.
So let's have it OK?
You are no chicken to show it no? It is free of flaws I am sure?
Come on Brian, it is not THAT different from the appication notes now is
it?



I have to agree that 50 ohm striplines are useless in an amp like this, it
is only important that the output impedance of the driver stages match the
driven stage. I cant see how you could do this with striplines on a
broadband amp at HF. There is already proven interstage design. NEW and
IMPROVED means new and improved over 30 year old technology. Bring CB amps
up to current technology would mean only advancing them about 10 or 15 years
from the 70s . Even in the 70s it was well known how to build a decent amp
but this is not what the CB market wanted then or now. As far as other
markets are concerned it is already very crowded and difficult to get ones
foot in the door.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
And, I have to say that .113 inch equals around 3mm width.. your transistor
connections and the stuff they are soldered to on your board are wider..

You are correct on the existing design. However, the new amp does
utilize impedance matched input and output traces on the PCB.

http://auctions.yahoo.com/i:SkyWave%...fier:117239910

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (25 Sep 2006 13:36:19 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
.com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
And, I have to say that .113 inch equals around 3mm width.. your transistor
connections and the stuff they are soldered to on your board are wider..

You are correct on the existing design. However, the new amp does
utilize impedance matched input and output traces on the PCB.

Well, I mentioned that it does not make a lot of difference at 27MHz,
the 50 Ohm part would be from the input PL259 to pre-amp or transformer or
whatever, and the other 50 Ohm part from the output of the Pi filter to
the output PL259, and in most cases these will be wires...
If you were to be consequent, then you would have to make the collector and
base match those relevant impedances too, and any outer part of the circuit.
The distances are so short however that this is not practical.
From the driver transformer to the bases, from the collectors to the output
transformer, and all different impedances at that.
Better keep these collector traces wide so they function as cooling and have
low resistance!
I am not sure anybody bothers with those impedances.
On the Ranger PCB double sided (you can get the layouts, click on the link top
left in the PCB component drawing) for example, there is a about 2 cm long track
from the output of the Pi filter to the relay, with _on_the_other_side_ of the
board a parallel track that is the SWR meter tap!
(The layout is mirrored, you have to flip it in thought to see that).
So even there they do not bother, but simply play transformer.
In the relay itself it is lost completely (the 50 Ohms) I suspect.
It is better to fix those things that really make a difference, good
Pi filter, good output stage matching to the 50 Ohm connector, SWR protection,
temp protection, perhaps drive control.
Funy LCD display, LEDS, reset button, build in mp3 player, toaster, alarm clock,
the works.
I should write LOL, but hey, it is true, anything has a mp3 player these days,
even my video camera.
If they just had used a better lens, and left out the player....
OK, marketing... give people what they want, they want the LCD.
Blue LEDS, orange LEDS.... all that.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

I have to agree that 50 ohm striplines are useless in an amp like this, it
is only important that the output impedance of the driver stages match the
driven stage.

Matching is always important for maximum power transfer. Why do you
think it's any less important in an amp such as this???

http://auctions.yahoo.com/i:SkyWave%...fier:117239910

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message
s.com...
I have to agree that 50 ohm striplines are useless in an amp like this,
it
is only important that the output impedance of the driver stages match
the
driven stage.

Matching is always important for maximum power transfer. Why do you
think it's any less important in an amp such as this???


Well, this one sucks. It's advertised ratings are fictional.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

U-Know-Who wrote:
Well, this one sucks. It's advertised ratings are fictional.

You know who is the only fictional thing here...

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (25 Sep 2006 16:32:49 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
m:

I have to agree that 50 ohm striplines are useless in an amp like this, it
is only important that the output impedance of the driver stages match the
driven stage.

Matching is always important for maximum power transfer. Why do you
think it's any less important in an amp such as this???


OK, I will now explain, as this is the second time you ask, and you
fail to see some basic concepts.

OK, lets assume you _have_ a perfect 50 Ohm PCB track.

No lets also assume you _have_ a perfect 50 Ohm source impedance to drive it.

What would we need to f*ck this up 100% by means of the 'impedance mismatch'
you are so worried about?

Simple, here is an example:

A
50 Ohm Generator ------------------------------------ B
||
|| end open (not terminated) PCB track of 50 Ohm impedance.
T ||
||__ GND


So _HOW_LONG_ should track T need to be to form a short for say 10 meters wavelength?
If it was to be a short, the reflected wave from the non terminated (open) end would
have to arrive in the exact opposite amplitude back in A, to 'nullify' the signal in
conductor B, resulting in 0V signal in B.


. .

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So you asked before 'when does this issue become important?'.
It becomes important when the designer thinks a significant enough effect is present.
This will normally be when we work with wavelengths that are closer to the PCB track length,
As you want no harmonics ;-) this should not be a big issue in the case of your amp.

I agree that this effect becomes more pronounced at higher
frequencies... but it's always good practice to incorporate it if
possible.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (26 Sep 2006 04:38:57 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
.com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So you asked before 'when does this issue become important?'.
It becomes important when the designer thinks a significant enough effect is present.
This will normally be when we work with wavelengths that are closer to the PCB track length,
As you want no harmonics ;-) this should not be a big issue in the case of your amp.

I agree that this effect becomes more pronounced at higher
frequencies... but it's always good practice to incorporate it if
possible.

www.telstar-electronics.com

I sincerely hope you did read, or are going to read, that tutorial.
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14...s/14183_51.htm
Also I expected some remark, but anyways;
Look ma, no math:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/6.html

It is interesting stuff, once you start designing for GHz range, or
fast digital logic, a must.
But it will help you with the CB antennas and cables too.

I would not lose sleep over you PCB track impedances in that amp,
just make sure the Pi filter matches that amp to 50 Ohms, else any
reflections will be from the coax back to the amp, not from any PCB traces.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
I would not lose sleep over you PCB track impedances in that amp,

Never intended to... it's just good design practice.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (26 Sep 2006 04:54:13 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
I would not lose sleep over you PCB track impedances in that amp,

Never intended to... it's just good design practice.

No it is madness.
quote
A genius is somebody who knows what NOT to pay attention to.
end quote

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
A genius is somebody who knows what NOT to pay attention to.

Then maybe I'll just start ignoring you... LOL

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On a sunny day (26 Sep 2006 06:06:20 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
A genius is somebody who knows what NOT to pay attention to.

Then maybe I'll just start ignoring you... LOL

www.telstar-electronics.com


Yo ureall yare of you rocker now are you?
VERY extensive help and explanations I have given you.
You do not learn.
You have no electronics eduction obviously.
Yo udo not WANT to learn.

And you are wrong many times, if not nearly always,
And then yo ustart insulting those who want to teach you?
Go to hell idiot.
And take your crap spam about that amp with you.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Yo ureall yare of you rocker now are you?
VERY extensive help and explanations I have given you.
You do not learn.
You have no electronics eduction obviously.
Yo udo not WANT to learn.

And you are wrong many times, if not nearly always,
And then yo ustart insulting those who want to teach you?
Go to hell idiot.
And take your crap spam about that amp with you.


I say again... if you are so smart... then where is your amplifier?
Produce your design and photos to substantiate. Oh, you can't... just
as I thought. It seems we have numerous back-seat drivers on this NG
that profess great knowledge in amplifier design. I say welcome all amp
gods... but produce your design. If you can't, then you have no
business claiming to be a deity.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Go to hell idiot.
And take your crap spam about that amp with you.

Hi Jan.

Put Griffey in your killfilter. If no one responds to him his free spam
advertising takes a real beating. He'll then resort to posting auction ads.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

I say again... if you are so smart... then where is your amplifier?
Produce your design and photos to substantiate. Oh, you can't... just
as I thought. It seems we have numerous back-seat drivers on this NG
that profess great knowledge in amplifier design. I say welcome all amp
gods... but produce your design. If you can't, then you have no
business claiming to be a deity.

With your logic we'd all have to hunt and gut and prepare our own
meals otherwise we have no validity when it comes to talking about
food.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Yo ureall yare of you rocker now are you?
VERY extensive help and explanations I have given you.
You do not learn.
You have no electronics eduction obviously.
Yo udo not WANT to learn.

And you are wrong many times, if not nearly always,
And then yo ustart insulting those who want to teach you?
Go to hell idiot.
And take your crap spam about that amp with you.


I say again... if you are so smart... then where is your amplifier?
Produce your design and photos to substantiate. Oh, you can't... just
as I thought. It seems we have numerous back-seat drivers on this NG
that profess great knowledge in amplifier design. I say welcome all amp
gods... but produce your design. If you can't, then you have no
business claiming to be a deity.


Why don't YOU produce a real amp? Instead, you hawk your baby CB only
drivers as real amateur amps. In reality, what you produce is not worth the
time to install with the tiny amount of amplification, and the expense per
watt.

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

U-Know-Who wrote:
Why don't YOU produce a real amp? Instead, you hawk your baby CB only
drivers as real amateur amps. In reality, what you produce is not worth the
time to install with the tiny amount of amplification, and the expense per
watt.

Go away little man... we voted you in as the village idiot... now you
want us to talk to you too!

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

"Telstar Electronics" wrote in message
oups.com...
U-Know-Who wrote:
Why don't YOU produce a real amp? Instead, you hawk your baby CB only
drivers as real amateur amps. In reality, what you produce is not worth
the
time to install with the tiny amount of amplification, and the expense
per
watt.

Go away little man... we voted you in as the village idiot... now you
want us to talk to you too!


Nah, the village idiot is the "perfesser" who wants to sell his beautiful
toy amps here. Yes perfesser, they do look really nice, but they are toys.
And to boot, you can manage what, 12 copies per year? Wow! What cash cow
you've come up with! I know, you'll come up with yet another witty response,
but the truth hurts. Deal with it.

And hey, how's that last amp selling on eBay?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

U-Know-Who wrote:
And hey, how's that last amp selling on eBay?

It sold, even though it was removed... Ebay is a fantastic selling
tool. I have four out there right now.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On 25 Sep 2006 16:32:49 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
m:

I have to agree that 50 ohm striplines are useless in an amp like this, it
is only important that the output impedance of the driver stages match the
driven stage.

Matching is always important for maximum power transfer.


For starters, a transmission line behaves like a transmission line
because of reactance. When your transmission line is a small fraction
of the wavelength (as is the case with your "stripline") then the
reactive impedances are insignificant. IOW, your "stripline" doesn't
behave like a transmission line (i.e, have a characteristic impedance)
because it's just too damn small.

What IS significant is the TOTAL impedance. Increasing the size of
your "stripline" will reduce the resistance while having a negligible
effect on the reactive impedance, thereby reducing total impedance. It
would also reduce resistive heating -and- increase heat dissipation;
doubling the width of your trace makes it capable of handling FOUR
times the load before it cooks off the board.


Now what were you saying about "maximum power transfer"?

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

On 26 Sep 2006 08:20:24 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
.com:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Yo ureall yare of you rocker now are you?
VERY extensive help and explanations I have given you.
You do not learn.
You have no electronics eduction obviously.
Yo udo not WANT to learn.

And you are wrong many times, if not nearly always,
And then yo ustart insulting those who want to teach you?
Go to hell idiot.
And take your crap spam about that amp with you.


I say again... if you are so smart... then where is your amplifier?
Produce your design and photos to substantiate. Oh, you can't... just
as I thought. It seems we have numerous back-seat drivers on this NG
that profess great knowledge in amplifier design. I say welcome all amp
gods... but produce your design. If you can't, then you have no
business claiming to be a deity.


So now you claim omnipotence because you built a cheap little CB amp?
Just who to you think you are..... Bill Eitner? ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!!

Amp Design Concept -- Preliminary
 

I say again... if you are so smart... then where is your amplifier?
Produce your design and photos to substantiate. Oh, you can't... just
as I thought. It seems we have numerous back-seat drivers on this NG
that profess great knowledge in amplifier design. I say welcome all amp
gods... but produce your design. If you can't, then you have no
business claiming to be a deity.

Frank Gilliland wrote:
So now you claim omnipotence because you built a cheap little CB amp?
Just who to you think you are..... Bill Eitner? ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!!

You didn't respond to the text that you quoted...
Instead, you went off on an unrelated tirade. That's the mark of
desperation.

www.telstar-electronics.com