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VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:46:16 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: http://www.telstar-electronics.com/d...evelopment.htm Brian, Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? Vinnie S. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:46:16 -0700, Telstar Electronics wrote: http://www.telstar-electronics.com/d...tDevelopment.h tm Brian, Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? Vinnie S. You have one, Enzo? |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 6, 9:59 pm, Vinnie S. wrote:
Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? An external device as you describe was considered during the design phase... but we decided that an external box (although easier to hook up initially) was unsightly with all the wires hanging all over, had mounting issues, and therefore was much less reliable in the long run. It also has problems accomodating different mic/radio plugs. The VoiceMax requires the cutting of a single trace within the receiver and works with any non-amplified dynamic mic. Since it's inside the rig... you set it up once... and enjoy the benefit each & every transmission without doing a thing. Hope that answers your comment/ question. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 08:10:05 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in .com: On Jul 6, 9:59 pm, Vinnie S. wrote: Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? An external device as you describe was considered during the design phase... but we decided that an external box (although easier to hook up initially) was unsightly with all the wires hanging all over, had mounting issues, and therefore was much less reliable in the long run. It also has problems accomodating different mic/radio plugs. The VoiceMax requires the cutting of a single trace within the receiver and works with any non-amplified dynamic mic. Since it's inside the rig... you set it up once... and enjoy the benefit each & every transmission without doing a thing. Hope that answers your comment/ question. So you can't adjust the threshold on the noise gate? That's pretty lame. So you set the threshold to trigger at a certain level, like during normal driving. So what happens when you are towing a boat up a hill with the windows open? How do you prevent it from chattering like a chimp with the hiccups? Does it have hysteresis to smooth out the chatter? If so, how long do you have to hum into the mic before you can start talking? If not, and you have to set it high enough to prevent chatter, how loud do you have to speak so your audio isn't chopped up? I don't think you've thought through this whole noise gate thing, Brian. You certainly haven't tested it much under real conditions, if at all. If you did you wouldn't be selling it. And BTW, since your non-linear linear has been discontinued, why won't you post the schematic? |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On 07 Jul 2007 03:16:15 GMT, Steveo wrote:
Vinnie S. wrote: On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:46:16 -0700, Telstar Electronics wrote: http://www.telstar-electronics.com/d...tDevelopment.h tm Brian, Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? Vinnie S. You have one, Enzo? No. But I would give it a shot, just for the purpose of experimenting. Vinnie S. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 7, 7:12 pm, Frank Gilliland wrote:
So you can't adjust the threshold on the noise gate? That's pretty lame. So you set the threshold to trigger at a certain level, like during normal driving. So what happens when you are towing a boat up a hill with the windows open? How do you prevent it from chattering like a chimp with the hiccups? Does it have hysteresis to smooth out the chatter? If so, how long do you have to hum into the mic before you can start talking? If not, and you have to set it high enough to prevent chatter, how loud do you have to speak so your audio isn't chopped up? Frank... you are really something.. You and electronics... is like a monkey at a typewriter... lol |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 05:57:59 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in . com: On Jul 7, 7:12 pm, Frank Gilliland wrote: So you can't adjust the threshold on the noise gate? That's pretty lame. So you set the threshold to trigger at a certain level, like during normal driving. So what happens when you are towing a boat up a hill with the windows open? How do you prevent it from chattering like a chimp with the hiccups? Does it have hysteresis to smooth out the chatter? If so, how long do you have to hum into the mic before you can start talking? If not, and you have to set it high enough to prevent chatter, how loud do you have to speak so your audio isn't chopped up? Frank... you are really something.. You and electronics... is like a monkey at a typewriter... lol .....monkey at a typewriter..... an even better way to describe the chatter of a noise gate with a fixed threshold. Very good, Brian!!! |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 05:57:59 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: +++On Jul 7, 7:12 pm, Frank Gilliland wrote: +++ So you can't adjust the threshold on the noise gate? That's pretty +++ lame. So you set the threshold to trigger at a certain level, like +++ during normal driving. So what happens when you are towing a boat up a +++ hill with the windows open? How do you prevent it from chattering like +++ a chimp with the hiccups? Does it have hysteresis to smooth out the +++ chatter? If so, how long do you have to hum into the mic before you +++ can start talking? If not, and you have to set it high enough to +++ prevent chatter, how loud do you have to speak so your audio isn't +++ chopped up? +++ +++Frank... you are really something.. +++You and electronics... is like a monkey at a typewriter... lol ************* Actually he poses a very interesting question that relates to the performance of the noise gate and it's response to rapid changing background noise levels. I think it is very germane to the evaluation of your product. james |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 8, 6:17 pm, james wrote:
Actually he poses a very interesting question that relates to the performance of the noise gate and it's response to rapid changing background noise levels. I think it is very germane to the evaluation of your product. The noise gate is not dynamic. It's set at the time of installation to the anticipated ambient background noise level. It certainly does have limitations. The S/N ratio of the audio should be high in order to take full advantage of the gate. This means that talking two feet away from the mic will not work well. The noise gate is extremely effective when set with the user speaking directly into the mic from perhaps a distance of an inch or two. This scenario allows a very large signal to noise ratio. By setting the gate this way... significant background noise can be blocked during low/non speech periods. The gate response time is different depending on which way the gate is going. The time it takes to break over the gate (quiet to speaking) is around 1mS. The decay (speaking to quiet mute) is gradual and has been set to around 0.5S. The decay is not an instant transistion (like the break over). This was done purposely to avoid any choppy effect from muting too rapidly during normal speech. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 08:10:05 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: On Jul 6, 9:59 pm, Vinnie S. wrote: Anyway to make this easier to connect, such a in series with the mic so I do not have to hack to cut traces? Like possibly putting in a box with and stantard 4 pin on the input and output? Also, what mic should you use with this? An external device as you describe was considered during the design phase... but we decided that an external box (although easier to hook up initially) was unsightly with all the wires hanging all over, had mounting issues, and therefore was much less reliable in the long run. It also has problems accomodating different mic/radio plugs. The VoiceMax requires the cutting of a single trace within the receiver and works with any non-amplified dynamic mic. Since it's inside the rig... you set it up once... and enjoy the benefit each & every transmission without doing a thing. Hope that answers your comment/ question. www.telstar-electronics.com I don't think people want to screw with cutting or hacking their radio. I think you would sell more as an external box. If amplifiers were this way, they would never sell. That is why people buy them separately, granted, the size would have some effect. But you can still get stinger boards. Revisit the idea. Vinnie S. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Vinnie S. wrote:
I don't think people want to screw with cutting or hacking their radio. I think you would sell more as an external box. If amplifiers were this way, they would never sell. That is why people buy them separately, granted, the size would have some effect. But you can still get stinger boards. Revisit the idea. There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem in the external design is the need for a battery. Our feeling was that things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal design was chosen. Another issue is definately the radio's internal limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible modulation. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100% constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be adjusted/disabled. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a redundant system is not needed. However, if the limiter in the set is not adjusted/disabled... VoiceMax will still increase and maintain the modulation to whatever the radio's internal limiter is set to... usally aroud 85% as I said before. It sounds like you have no plans to open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:49:11 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Vinnie S. wrote: I don't think people want to screw with cutting or hacking their radio. I think you would sell more as an external box. If amplifiers were this way, they would never sell. That is why people buy them separately, granted, the size would have some effect. But you can still get stinger boards. Revisit the idea. There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem in the external design is the need for a battery. Our feeling was that things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal design was chosen. Another issue is definately the radio's internal limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible modulation. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100% constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be adjusted/disabled. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a redundant system is not needed. However, if the limiter in the set is not adjusted/disabled... VoiceMax will still increase and maintain the modulation to whatever the radio's internal limiter is set to... usally aroud 85% as I said before. It sounds like you have no plans to open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. www.telstar-electronics.com It's not for me, but I am showing interest, and you're blowing me off. The funny thing is, I don't have the theory expertise that you, James, or Frank have. But I am one of the few people that uses CB, that can open the radio up and read schemtics, and follow directions for mods. I would guess that 95% of the people still in CB, cannot do this, and would have to take it to a CB shop and have it installed for anywhere from $30-5-. Why would they do this? As far as the battery problem, there are a couple options. One is to put 12VDC terminals on it, or simply use a 12V battery. Hell, the 9V battery in my mike lasts for years. Second question is, before I hack into my radio, how much better is this than my Turner +3B with Speech Compression? Vinnie S. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 9, 8:09 am, Vinnie S. wrote:
It's not for me, but I am showing interest, and you're blowing me off. The funny thing is, I don't have the theory expertise that you, James, or Frank have. But I am one of the few people that uses CB, that can open the radio up and read schemtics, and follow directions for mods. I would guess that 95% of the people still in CB, cannot do this, and would have to take it to a CB shop and have it installed for anywhere from $30-5-. Why would they do this? As far as the battery problem, there are a couple options. One is to put 12VDC terminals on it, or simply use a 12V battery. Hell, the 9V battery in my mike lasts for years. Second question is, before I hack into my radio, how much better is this than my Turner +3B with Speech Compression? I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you... just trying to give you the facts. I agree that there are many people that don't have the expertise to install such a device. These folks would have to seek the help of a technically competent person... such as a CB shop as you mention. I would suggest that you supply any potential installer with the installation manual at http://www.telstar-electronics.com/VoiceMax%20B.pdf .... to see if they feel they are capable of the job. As for your question about the Turner... sorry... I have no knowledge regarding this unit. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:49:11 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in .com: On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Vinnie S. wrote: I don't think people want to screw with cutting or hacking their radio. I think you would sell more as an external box. If amplifiers were this way, they would never sell. That is why people buy them separately, granted, the size would have some effect. But you can still get stinger boards. Revisit the idea. There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem in the external design is the need for a battery. Our MPD. feeling was that things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal design was chosen. Power mics have batteries but people still buy them. Or why not tap 12 volts from the power leads to the radio? If the box is so great I'm sure people would be willing to do -that- much. Another issue is definately the radio's internal limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible modulation. Wrong. They are set at the factory for 95 to 98% modulation, as per just about every service manual I've ever seen. And that's a lot of manuals. An additional 2 to 5% is, for all practical purposes, insignificant, translating to a peak power increase of less than 1%. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100% constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be adjusted/disabled. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a redundant system is not needed. Wrong. The limiter in the radio is set for the specific radio, and is usually integrated into the audio AGC that's already built into the radio (which makes your processor somewhat redundant except for the noise gate). Disabling the internal limiter and using an external limiter will almost certainly result in clipping, especially when the person setting it has no calibration equipment.... that is, assuming your processor's limiter can be adjusted. Can it? However, if the limiter in the set is not adjusted/disabled... VoiceMax will still increase and maintain the modulation to whatever the radio's internal limiter is set to... usally aroud 85% as I said before. It sounds like you have no plans to open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. It sounds like you have no plans to open and read a few service manuals and find out how these radios already work. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:54:48 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: +++On Jul 9, 8:09 am, Vinnie S. wrote: +++ It's not for me, but I am showing interest, and you're blowing me off. The funny +++ thing is, I don't have the theory expertise that you, James, or Frank have. But +++ I am one of the few people that uses CB, that can open the radio up and read +++ schemtics, and follow directions for mods. I would guess that 95% of the people +++ still in CB, cannot do this, and would have to take it to a CB shop and have it +++ installed for anywhere from $30-5-. Why would they do this? As far as the +++ battery problem, there are a couple options. One is to put 12VDC terminals on +++ it, or simply use a 12V battery. Hell, the 9V battery in my mike lasts for +++ years. +++ Second question is, before I hack into my radio, how much better is this than my +++ Turner +3B with Speech Compression? +++ +++I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you... just trying to give +++you the facts. I agree that there are many people that don't have the +++expertise to install such a device. These folks would have to seek the +++help of a technically competent person... such as a CB shop as you +++mention. I would suggest that you supply any potential installer with +++the installation manual at http://www.telstar-electronics.com/VoiceMax%20B.pdf +++... to see if they feel they are capable of the job. As for your +++question about the Turner... sorry... I have no knowledge regarding +++this unit. ********** The only reason I see for doing a internal board and not an external unit is that a board has to be bought for every radio a person owns if they want to have the same capabilities on all their radios. Thus more potential sales. The rest of your explanation is pure hogwash. james |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:49:11 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: +++On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Vinnie S. wrote: +++ I don't think people want to screw with cutting or hacking their radio. I think +++ you would sell more as an external box. If amplifiers were this way, they would +++ never sell. That is why people buy them separately, granted, the size would have +++ some effect. But you can still get stinger boards. +++ Revisit the idea. +++ +++There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem +++in the external design is the need for a battery. Our feeling was that +++things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional +++monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This +++increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal +++design was chosen. Another issue is definately the radio's internal +++limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible +++modulation. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100% +++constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be +++adjusted/disabled. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a +++redundant system is not needed. However, if the limiter in the set is +++not adjusted/disabled... VoiceMax will still increase and maintain the +++modulation to whatever the radio's internal limiter is set to... +++usally aroud 85% as I said before. It sounds like you have no plans to +++open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. +++www.telstar-electronics.com *************** Hogwash and plenty of it. the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. Yep the internal audio power amp has some form of limiting (compression) that keeps the modulation percentage in the 85 to 100% range. Often that feedback path is the first thing that most CBers cut out when they buy their radios. So what is the need for another internal compression unit when CBers don't want aduio compression? Secondly why add another compressor when you already have sufficient compression built into the radio? If I wanted more, I would increase the negative feedback to the controlled gain stage of the audio modualtor section. Often this is just a resistor value change. Beisdes increasing modulation percentage from 85% to 100% gains little in range or intelligability. Often not worth the effort. Adds about 7% audio power into the each of the two sidebands. Even if the limiter section of the modulator section is not disabled adding your compressor is not going to increase the percentage of modulation. So why waste the money to buy and install it unless you disable the radio's internal limiter? After doing all that to gain up to 15% increased modulation percentage? Cheaper to clip and/or alter the feedback in the modualtion stage. james |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 9, 12:03 pm, james wrote:
the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. James, you are very similar to Frank... in that you have distinct ideas. The problem you both have is one of conveyance. I have made every effort to answer your questions in a civil manner... but you continue to rant uncontrollably. I'm not sure by what authority you speak... since you have no design of your own. Therefore, the conversation with Frank and James is ended as far as I'm concerned. If some others have questions, I'd be more than happy to attempt to answer you. If you don't wish to use this forum... I fully understand. Please email me anytime. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:42:53 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in .com: On Jul 9, 12:03 pm, james wrote: the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. James, you are very similar to Frank... in that you have distinct ideas. The problem you both have is one of conveyance. I have made every effort to answer your questions in a civil manner... but you continue to rant uncontrollably. 9 square feet? 85% stock modulation? "Linearity is not required for SSB..."? What do you expect, Brian.... a standing ovation? I'm not sure by what authority you speak... since you have no design of your own. Therefore, the conversation with Frank and James is ended as far as I'm concerned. I have shown you more than enough of my work for you to see my credentials. If you need more then just ask, I'll email you a copy of my graduation certificate from USMC Ground Radio Repair Course (MCCES, 29 Palms, CA), my college diploma, and even a copy of my Master's thesis when it's finished. You, for obvious reasons, have yet to post the schematic for your amp. If some others have questions, I'd be more than happy to attempt to answer you. If you don't wish to use this forum... I fully understand. Please email me anytime. It would be better for them to post their questions in the group so those of us who know what we are talking about can set them straight after you attempt to dazzle them with your RF hocus-pocus..... like trying to sell people an aftermarket compressor when there's already one built into the radio.... what a scam. Who was that comedian who did the "instant water" routine? Instant water... just add water! |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:25:59 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote in : On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:42:53 -0700, Telspam Electronics wrote in s.com: On Jul 9, 12:03 pm, james wrote: the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. James, you are very similar to Frank... in that you have distinct ideas. The problem you both have is one of conveyance. I have made every effort to answer your questions in a civil manner... but you continue to rant uncontrollably. 9 square feet? 85% stock modulation? "Linearity is not required for SSB..."? What do you expect, Brian.... a standing ovation? And I almost forgot your latest ****up: You, maker and seller of CB amps, running two modified radios, declare that you're "100% legal"? ROTFL!!!! You're a liar from top to bottom, Brian. NOBODY believes anything you say. That's why nobody is defending you in the newsgroup -- or hadn't you noticed? Gawd you are dumb. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Beisdes increasing modulation percentage from 85% to 100% gains little
in range or intelligability. Often not worth the effort. Adds about 7% audio power into the each of the two sidebands. Even if the limiter section of the modulator section is not disabled adding your compressor is not going to increase the percentage of modulation. So why waste the money to buy and install it unless you disable the radio's internal limiter? The original radio has the capability of getting to 85% modulation. This 85% is by no means the average modulation... which is really around 40% with voice signals. The VoiceMax brings the average modulation to 100%! That means that every voice... high or low... soft or loud... will modulate the radio at a constant 100%. I'm in full agreement with your last statement... if your leave the radio's limiter untouched... you will only be able to maintain a constant 85% modulation. Granted, that is a great improvement from the original radio modulation... but to get full advantage from VoiceMax (the VoiceMax installation instructions are quite clear on this point)... you need to adjust or disable the radio's limiter so you're able to reach the 100% modualtion point. Once there... the VoiceMax has an on- board adjustable limiter that will hold you precisely at the 100% level. You can't do any better than that! www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:42:53 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: +++On Jul 9, 12:03 pm, james wrote: +++ the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have +++ 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the +++ chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of +++ operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. +++ +++James, you are very similar to Frank... in that you have distinct +++ideas. The problem you both have is one of conveyance. I have made +++every effort to answer your questions in a civil manner... but you +++continue to rant uncontrollably. I'm not sure by what authority you +++speak... since you have no design of your own. Therefore, the +++conversation with Frank and James is ended as far as I'm concerned. If +++some others have questions, I'd be more than happy to attempt to +++answer you. If you don't wish to use this forum... I fully understand. +++Please email me anytime. +++www.telstar-electronics.com **************** I am not ranting and raving. I am pointing out facts. I have 23 yrs experience in designing battery powered electronic devices. You stated that a external unit is not practicle and I say it is. If that is ranting and raving to you then so be it. james |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 10, 8:50 am, james wrote:
I am not ranting and raving. I am pointing out facts. I have 23 yrs experience in designing battery powered electronic devices. You stated that a external unit is not practicle and I say it is. If that is ranting and raving to you then so be it. Thanks for not responding like Frank... I never said that being battery powered was impractical. I merely said that there are certain problems with battery-powered type equipment and we chose not to take that design route. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:14:31 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote: +++On Jul 10, 8:50 am, james wrote: +++ I am not ranting and raving. I am pointing out facts. I have 23 yrs +++ experience in designing battery powered electronic devices. You stated +++ that a external unit is not practicle and I say it is. If that is +++ ranting and raving to you then so be it. +++ +++Thanks for not responding like Frank... +++I never said that being battery powered was impractical. I merely said +++that there are certain problems with battery-powered type equipment +++and we chose not to take that design route. +++www.telstar-electronics.com ************** Outside changing batteries on a regular basis or a some charging circuit that would be the only issues. Now if those are what you considered as being impractical then that is your opinion, not mine. james |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 04:21:39 -0700, Telspam Electronics
wrote in . com: Beisdes increasing modulation percentage from 85% to 100% gains little in range or intelligability. Often not worth the effort. Adds about 7% audio power into the each of the two sidebands. Even if the limiter section of the modulator section is not disabled adding your compressor is not going to increase the percentage of modulation. So why waste the money to buy and install it unless you disable the radio's internal limiter? The original radio has the capability of getting to 85% modulation. Unless it's an old tube-type radio, your original radio was broke. Just about every solid-state radio built since the 1960's has the modulation set for 95-98%. I mentioned this before, but like every other fact I have stated that is easily verifiable, you ignored it. This 85% is by no means the average modulation... which is really around 40% with voice signals. It varies as much as people have different voices and speaking styles, but it is generally accepted to be in the 20 to 25% range (peak to average ratio from 5:1 to 4:1). The VoiceMax brings the average modulation to 100%! That means that every voice... high or low... soft or loud... will modulate the radio at a constant 100%. Impossible, and you prove it yourself with your implementation of a noise gate. You can push 40 to 50% with heavy filtering, and that's about the best you can do, but it still causes moderate distortion. Even if your "constant 100%" modulation applies only to unmuted voice, it would be completely unintelligible. You can pick up almost any book on radio communications and it will say the same thing. I'm in full agreement with your last statement... if your leave the radio's limiter untouched... you will only be able to maintain a constant 85% modulation. Granted, that is a great improvement from the original radio modulation... but to get full advantage from VoiceMax (the VoiceMax installation instructions are quite clear on this point)... you need to adjust or disable the radio's limiter so you're able to reach the 100% modualtion point. Once there... the VoiceMax has an on- board adjustable limiter that will hold you precisely at the 100% level. You can't do any better than that! Assuming you set your processor's limiter to 100% mush, you still need to set the output level to the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. Even just 101% modulation means clipping; pump that with 100% average noise and you have the potential for some serious bleedover. And there's no way for the average user to determine the precise point at which his radio is at 100% modulation. Radios are set at the factory for 95% to 98% modulation to allow for slight variations in tolerance that happen during normal operation; for you to claim that your processor limits modulation to 100% all of the time is not only absurd, it's impossible because of the tolerance limitations of the radio. These are the hard questions, Brian. And this is not a rant. I'll even grant you clemency from your now broken promise not to reply to my posts. You have no excuse not to reply. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 10, 12:28 pm, Frank Gilliland
wrote: This 85% is by no means the average modulation... which is really around 40% with voice signals. It varies as much as people have different voices and speaking styles, but it is generally accepted to be in the 20 to 25% range (peak to average ratio from 5:1 to 4:1). Since you have stopped your personal attack (for now), I will certainly respond to your comments. You are correct... I said "around 40%". You say 20-25%. Either way... the number is far from the optimum 100% value the VoiceMax can deliver. The VoiceMax brings the average modulation to 100%! That means that every voice... high or low... soft or loud... will modulate the radio at a constant 100%. Impossible, and you prove it yourself with your implementation of a noise gate. You can push 40 to 50% with heavy filtering, and that's about the best you can do, but it still causes moderate distortion. Very possible... and the distortion is less than 1% THD. Even if your "constant 100%" modulation applies only to unmuted voice, it would be completely unintelligible. You can pick up almost any book on radio communications and it will say the same thing. You are correct that the 100% average applies to the unmuted signal... Why would we be talking about anything else? The audio signal is perfectly clear and has less than 1% THD. www.telstar-electronics.com |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:08:42 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote in . com: ........ I met your standards, now you meet mine: Try your response again without selectively snipping issues that you choose to ignore. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Assuming you set your processor's limiter to 100%, you still need
to set the output level to the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. Even just 101% modulation means clipping; pump that with 100% average noise and you have the potential for some serious bleedover. And there's no way for the average user to determine the precise point at which his radio is at 100% modulation. Radios are set at the factory for 95% to 98% modulation to allow for slight variations in tolerance that happen during normal operation; for you to claim that your processor limits modulation to 100% all of the time is not only absurd, it's impossible because of the tolerance limitations of the radio. I think this is the last of your comments I didn't have time to respond to before. You are certainly correct that you need to set the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. In the VoiceMax installation instructions it says that for a precise modulation level, you should use a scope. While it's true there's no perfect way to do this without a scope... you should be able to get reasonably close by having an assistant monitor your transmission during the adjustment. This is also covered in the VoiceMax installation instructions. Even levels up to 110% modulation will not cause excessive bleedover. The people you hear on the air bleeding 20+ channels are usally running a combination of excessive power with perhaps upward of 130% modulation. That is a deadly splattering condition all right. However, I don't agree with your statement that factory radios are set to 95-98% possible modulation. There is no way there is enough margin here to assure they will not exceed the 100%. That's why they they normally set to around 85%. Both my Cobra radios were in that vicinity. I have never put a factory radio on the scope and seen more than 90%! |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 9, 12:03 pm, james wrote:
the SSM2166 draws about 10mA of current. Four NiMH AA batteries have 1800mAhr capabilities. At full charge that delivers 5.6VDC to the chip. Well within the operating range. Should get about 150 hrs of operation. Add a charging circuit and you have no more issues. James, As you and Frank seem to have problems understanding Brian, please let me translate for you... "Telstar Electronics" wrote... James, you are very similar to Frank... in that you have distinct ideas. You, just like Frank, know too much, The problem you both have is one of conveyance. and I am not listening to you. (with fingers in ears) La la la la I have made every effort to answer your questions in a civil manner... I have tried all the stuff that works on the usual CBers, but you continue to rant uncontrollably. and I sill ain't listening, I'm not sure by what authority you speak... and I don't know why I should, since you have no design of your own. unless you help me out by designing something so I can make it, sell it and pocket all the money. Therefore, the conversation with Frank and James is ended as far as I'm concerned. So I will keep my fingers in my ears, If some others have questions, I'd be more than happy to attempt to answer you. If you don't wish to use this forum... I fully understand. Please email me anytime. until you secretly capitulate and send me a design. www.telstar-electronics.com Remember who will retain the rights to your design. ***** Any help to you, James? :~) Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Telstar Electronics" wrote...
I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you... just trying to give you the facts. But, by making it internal only, you ARE encouraging the hacking of radios. I don't know about America, but there are very few real radio techs in this country willing to take on CB work. It simply doesn't pay what a real tech is worth. If they try to charge what they are worth, the CBer will simply find a cheap "rig doctor" who has no real training. Alternatively, they will try to fit it themselves... they will ask in some group, and most likely get help from one of those "rig doctors". Either way, "rig doctor" or DIY, they are likely to end up with a hatchet job. When the system sounds like crap, will they really blame their work - or your product? I agree that there are many people that don't have the expertise to install such a device. These folks would have to seek the help of a technically competent person... such as a CB shop as you mention. Some time back, a regular customer brought in their radio and a speech processor, which they wanted fitting. The speech processor was a well known type, and had been obtained from a well known UK supplier. I believe that that the shop purchased the processor in kit form, putting it together, to allow for their profit margin... because I simply refuse to believe that the manufacturer makes such a hatchet job of their soldering and wiring. Proving that, even if your product only goes to retailers or is only fitted by retailers, it may still end up as a hatchet job... and your product could get the blame. As for your question about the Turner... sorry... I have no knowledge regarding this unit. You have no knowledge of the products you are competing with? And no intention of providing what the customer desires? I can understand you ignoring the rantings of a bitter, twisted old man who may have a grudge... but someone interested in your product? This seems to suggest that YOU decided that YOU want to make and sell a product based on YOUR desires... not on what the consumer wants or needs. It reminds me of a certain singer who said that he didn't care that his latest stuff was not what the public wanted... he liked it. Last I heard, I believe he was cleaning streets somewhere in America. Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Telstar Electronics" wrote...
An external device as you describe was considered during the design phase... but we decided that an external box (although easier to hook up initially) was unsightly with all the wires hanging all over, had mounting issues, and therefore was much less reliable in the long run. Didn't seem to stop the sales of other devices, such as echo boxes and so many other devices. Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Frank Gilliland" wrote...
And BTW, since your non-linear linear has been discontinued, why won't you post the schematic? In case some small company, in a small European country, are willing to pay for his discarded designs. It worked for Fiat. Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Vinnie S." wrote...
It's not for me, but I am showing interest, and you're blowing me off. This group has shown much hostility towards Brian, and I was about to Email one of the regulars to ask what the history is. Because, so far, I had not seen the reason for it apart from the usual p1ss1ng contests and opposing groups within rrcb. However, Brian himself appears to have given what could be a real good reason to avoid his products... his apparent disregard for the customer's needs or desires. That, for me, raises concerns about whether he would provide good customer care or simply blow the customer off once he has their money. The funny thing is, I don't have the theory expertise that you, James, or Frank have. Most CBers do not have technical expertise, it is not a requirement. In fact, CB is for those without such expertise. That is why, as a consumer, you need to be aware. Many companies have used this lack of knowledge against their customers, selling them total crap. But I am one of the few people that uses CB, that can open the radio up and read schemtics, and follow directions for mods. I don't know about "few". Over the years, I have seen a large amount of fekked up equipment, due to people who are willing to go inside their radio... and those willing to do other people's radios the same way. One person I knew would do this with every radio he had, he was famous for it. Every time he got a radio, he would go inside and feck it up. He would then sell it cheap t a tech, and buy another. The tech would put everything right and make a killing on the sale. As far as the battery problem, there are a couple options. One is to put 12VDC terminals on it, or simply use a 12V battery. Hell, the 9V battery in my mike lasts for years. Over the years, I have seen many battery operated CB accessories and many with wires for 12v supply. Power microphones, base microphones, echo boxes, speech processors, VOX, preamps, power amps, etc. None of the manufacturers had a problem with external units, or the selling of them. Second question is, before I hack into my radio, how much better is this than my Turner +3B with Speech Compression? Do they still make this, to the same old specifications, or is it an old one still in use? This is from an old catalog, really old... Model +3B Frequency range: 300-3500Hz Impedance: 1K Ohm Output level: -42dB adjustable Battery type: 7v Turner / Mallory. That is all it gives, and it is not clear whether that "-42dB" is dBm and whether that is maximum, minimum or some middle figure. There is another processor in this catalog, anyone remember the MC902 processor? Remember the days of "Solid-State" equipment? Loads of switches, knobs, and even a meter on this one. Does Brian give out full spec on his processor? Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Vinnie S." wrote...
On 07 Jul 2007 03:16:15 GMT, Steveo wrote: You have one, Enzo? No. But I would give it a shot, just for the purpose of experimenting. Here comes RRCB customer No 3. This is becoming a sales boom. Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
"Telstar Electronics" wrote...
There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem in the external design is the need for a battery. Our feeling was that things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal design was chosen. Another issue is definately the radio's internal limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible modulation. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100% constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be adjusted/disabled. Brian, Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings, was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic range of the audio, rather than simply increase the maximum modulation? You appear to be suggesting that this processor works by the person turning their radio up. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a redundant system is not needed. Unless, at some time, someone decides to remove the processor? Maybe they don't like it, maybe they want a standard radio, who knows - but I have heard of many non-standard boards being removed for various reasons. This may not be the person who fitted it, so they will be totally unaware of the removal of important cricuits within the radio. Then they have a radio with no limiting. It sounds like you have no plans to open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. This is where I start to get some serious concerns... 1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply make up your own ideas and con people into buying them? 2. If I had issues with a product I got from you, why should I expect anything more than Vinnie got... a big "blow off"? The suggestion that you would not sell your product to Frank also suggests a couple of things... 1. You have something to hide, something that Frank could find. 2. You have a limited customer base, and intend to keep it that way - no selling through dealers, so you can control who is allowed to buy one. You should know very well that I have no issues with you personally, but these are the impressions I am getting. I also doubt if you impressed Vinnie, a potential customer. How many more will question your commitment to the customer? Frank can stand there throwing punches all day, he is not the one stood in quicksand. Regards, Peter. http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/ |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic range of the audio, rather than simply increase the maximum modulation? No, VoiceMax greatly compresses the audio. You appear to be suggesting that this processor works by the person turning their radio up. What I'm saying is that to get the maximum benefit from VoiceMax... one must have a radio that is capable of 100% modulation... before the module is installed. If you have such a radio... then there is nothing to be done but the installation. The redundant limiters (radio & VoiceMax) will be transparent to the user. The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a redundant system is not needed. Unless, at some time, someone decides to remove the processor? Maybe they don't like it, maybe they want a standard radio, who knows - but I have heard of many non-standard boards being removed for various reasons. This may not be the person who fitted it, so they will be totally unaware of the removal of important cricuits within the radio. Then they have a radio with no limiting. True. If the radio's limiter is adjusted or disabled... one would have to restore it to its original setting if the VoiceMax module is removed. This is normally a very simple procedure as you are most likely aware of. It sounds like you have no plans to open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you. This is where I start to get some serious concerns... 1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply make up your own ideas and con people into buying them? Don't understand this... 2. If I had issues with a product I got from you, why should I expect anything more than Vinnie got... a big "blow off"? I didn't blow-off anyone. I merely told Vinnie that if he didn't have the expertise necessary to install the unit... and didn't want anyone else opening his radio... that VoiceMax wasn't for him. What's wrong with that? The suggestion that you would not sell your product to Frank also suggests a couple of things... 1. You have something to hide, something that Frank could find. 2. You have a limited customer base, and intend to keep it that way - no selling through dealers, so you can control who is allowed to buy one. Frank has been a constant irritant here for years... yes years. He is a frustrated electronic technician in California that doesn't like anyone challenging any statement he makes. As you see he very abusive/ abrasive. I certainly don't need... or want customers like that. You're right... I will be distributing this device at first. After the product catches on... I hope to work with some distribution channels. You should know very well that I have no issues with you personally, but these are the impressions I am getting. I also doubt if you impressed Vinnie, a potential customer. How many more will question your commitment to the customer? I'm not here to impress anyone. I also don't want to sell this device to anyone that has reservations about the performance. Most of these guys... Frank, Steveo, and some others are not potential customers... they are spoilers. That is... and has been their mission all along. They are good in a way because they always play the "devils advocate" and give me an opportunity to explain my device to others out there that are interested... and smart enough to comprehend. Those people are... and continue to be my customers. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Brian,
I apologize for starting a ****ing contest, as that was not my intention. I was interested in testing it for you, but would have rather had an external box type unit. I did not mean for this thread to go out of control. Vinnie S. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
Brian,
I apologize for starting a ****ing contest, as that was not my intention. I was interested in testing it for you, but would have rather had an external box type unit. I did not mean for this thread to go out of control. Vinnie S. Hey... no apology necessary. This thread is no more out of control than usual. Even conversing with Frank beats seeing all the rest of that crap out here like ipunce this & morky that... whatever that's all means... lol Even if people don't agree... at least they're thinking. That's more than what usually goes on here. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:08:42 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote in . com: On Jul 10, 12:28 pm, Frank Gilliland wrote: This 85% is by no means the average modulation... which is really around 40% with voice signals. It varies as much as people have different voices and speaking styles, but it is generally accepted to be in the 20 to 25% range (peak to average ratio from 5:1 to 4:1). Since you have stopped your personal attack (for now), I will certainly respond to your comments. You are correct... I said "around 40%". You say 20-25%. Either way... the number is far from the optimum 100% value the VoiceMax can deliver. See below. The VoiceMax brings the average modulation to 100%! That means that every voice... high or low... soft or loud... will modulate the radio at a constant 100%. Impossible, and you prove it yourself with your implementation of a noise gate. You can push 40 to 50% with heavy filtering, and that's about the best you can do, but it still causes moderate distortion. Very possible... and the distortion is less than 1% THD. Not possible. Older power amps were lucky to get as low as 1% distortion -without- compression. Compression, by any other name, -IS- distortion, whether it's by clipping or by AGC. You can filter out some of the harmonics but the distortion remains -- and is evident by a change in the output as you readily admit. As far as harmonics are concerned, if you have a brick-wall filter at 3kHz you still pass harmonics generated from fundamentals below 1.5kHz, which includes most of the intelligible speech. (Anyone who wants a primer in the audio spectrum should find a .wav file of a standard 1kHz tone and try to duplicate it with their own voice. Unless you are Mariah Carey, good luck!) So even if you -think- you have filtered out 99% of the harmonics generated by compression, think again. Only a distortion analyzer will tell you how much THD remains. Even if your "constant 100%" modulation applies only to unmuted voice, it would be completely unintelligible. You can pick up almost any book on radio communications and it will say the same thing. You are correct that the 100% average applies to the unmuted signal... Why would we be talking about anything else? The audio signal is perfectly clear and has less than 1% THD. Can't happen. If your peak-to-average 1:1 (which is required for 100% modulation) then all ...=-ALL-=... the audio peaks are at the maximum. With a 3kHz spectral limit, this would require an AGC response of less than 20 uS, assuming you want the output to at least vaguely resemble the input (that's 1/6000 with a very generous 10% response delay). The chip you selected simply doesn't work that fast. You would need an AGC amp with a slew rate at -least- 100 times faster than what you have. Now assuming you have such a chip, and you did get 1:1 peak-to-average voice power while muting everything else, your output would sound much like dried ****. It's not hard to duplicate; just run a 10Vp-p audio signal through a couple 1N34A's and filter at 3kHz. It will achieve 100% average modulation all the time, but it sounds like crap and is completely unintelligible. And it ain't "less than 1% THD" -- the DA says it's closer to 80% -after- the 3kHz filter. If your processor has "perfectly clear" audio while at maximum compression then I can guarantee you that it -isn't- running anywhere close to 100% average modulation. 40% at best. And that's no better than the AGC already built into the radio. On the other hand, if you built what I already told you was a 'constant volume amplifier' (that you confused with a 'voltage controlled amplifier') then your average modulation is going to be closer to 25%. Either way, your performance claims are contradictory and unrealistic (i.e, impossible). At best they show ignorance of the principles used; at worst, they show deception in marketing. |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:00:41 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote in . com: Assuming you set your processor's limiter to 100%, you still need to set the output level to the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. Even just 101% modulation means clipping; pump that with 100% average noise and you have the potential for some serious bleedover. And there's no way for the average user to determine the precise point at which his radio is at 100% modulation. Radios are set at the factory for 95% to 98% modulation to allow for slight variations in tolerance that happen during normal operation; for you to claim that your processor limits modulation to 100% all of the time is not only absurd, it's impossible because of the tolerance limitations of the radio. I think this is the last of your comments I didn't have time to respond to before. You are certainly correct that you need to set the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. In the VoiceMax installation instructions it says that for a precise modulation level, you should use a scope. While it's true there's no perfect way to do this without a scope... you should be able to get reasonably close by having an assistant monitor your transmission during the adjustment. This is also covered in the VoiceMax installation instructions. Such a procedure is pointless unless the assistant is monitoring on the second and third harmonics. Even levels up to 110% modulation will not cause excessive bleedover. But they will cause harmonics, especially on the television. The people you hear on the air bleeding 20+ channels are usally running a combination of excessive power with perhaps upward of 130% modulation. That is a deadly splattering condition all right. Adjacent channel bleedover is caused by audio harmonic distortion bypassing the 3kHz filter. RF Amplifiers only amplify the bleedover. Modulation level is not a factor because overmodulation only creates RF harmonics (e.g, being heard on 54MHz, 81MHz, etc.), which is also caused by non-linear linears. However, I don't agree with your statement that factory radios are set to 95-98% possible modulation. There is no way there is enough margin here to assure they will not exceed the 100%. That's why they they normally set to around 85%. Both my Cobra radios were in that vicinity. I have never put a factory radio on the scope and seen more than 90%! I have a shelf filled with CB manuals, both Sams and factory manuals. Except for some of the old tube-type radios, the modulation adjustment for all of them is around 95 to 98% -- I didn't pull those numbers out of a hat. If you've never seen more than 90% then either your scope is too slow or you need to learn how to use it properly. And that's why scopes are not recommended for modulation alignment, which is usually done with an RF voltmeter or demod probe, and an audio source with a fixed amplitude and frequency (a sig-gen, not someone yelling AAAUUDIO into the mic). You should really read some of these manuals -- some of them also describe how to adjust the mic audio AGC circuits.... |
VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
On Jul 10, 7:16 pm, Frank Gilliland
wrote: Such a procedure is pointless unless the assistant is monitoring on the second and third harmonics. Frank lives in a black & white world. The real world is gray Frank... and isn't perfect. I agree that in a perfect world... one would use a scope to get to the target 100% modulation. In the real gray world... not everyone has a scope.. and therefore would have to resort to the next best method... the listening assistant. After all you always talk about the "empirical" method being so good... are you getting away from that thinking now?.. lol www.telstar-electronics.com |
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