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Old November 18th 03, 12:46 PM
Ed Price
 
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"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or

exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Ed
wb6wsn


Imagine your cell phone if it was designed to be repaired, and used only
common components. It would be the size of a briefcase. Do you think
cell phones would be popular if they had to be briefcase sized?

What about spectrum analyzers that needed to be contained in several
6 foot high rack cabinets?

Is the world better or worse now that a 100MHz oscilloscope can be made
the size of a paper back book?

-Chuck, WA3UQV


We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
often not a concern.

I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.

If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.

Ed

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Old November 18th 03, 02:51 PM
Chuck Harris
 
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Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
often not a concern.


If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size. Some of the
reductions are there to make it possible to fit more test equipment in a
given space, and some are there because of necessities of the new
technology (eg. microwave speeds and low power consumption are better
done with tiny sized components.)


I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.


Was your life, as a technician that is, made better or worse when that
same 4 man lift SA was reduced to one that you could carry yourself with
one hand, while carrying your 1G scope with the other?

How about performance? Did it help you to have the bandwidth limit of
your old 4 man lift SA rise from 1GHz to 300GHz? How about your 30MHz
scope that is now 1GHz? Did you notice that the prices went DOWN?

How about the heat generation? Have you ever worked in a lab that had
no effective air conditioning, and also had a herd of Tek 500 series
scopes whirring away?.. in the middle of the summer? I have, and I am
quite happy not to do it anymore. We saw temperatures as high as 120F
at times. No windows, one door, lots of fans. Turn off the equipment,
and the AC did quite fine.

And finally, how about the space savings? Does it help you or hurt you
to recapture that floor space the old SA, and scope, and signal
generator used?

Tiny little custom component ridden hard to service test equipment made
it possible to move away from that kind of scene.


If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.


All of the $10K+ stuff I have seen from HP or Tek would easily meet your
needs. Calibration? You cannot be serious. Most of this stuff is so
finely calibrated that it would be beyond the capabilities of anything
but an expert calibration lab to accomplish the task. Just having the
standards necessary takes a whole lab... and a whole budget. I know
this because I tried to set up a NIST traceable cal lab for my business,
and eventually concluded that for me to do that, cal would have to
become my exclusive business. I still have all the standards and
equipment, but no time to put them to use... No money to keep them in
cert with NIST. It is FAR cheaper to send the stuff out and get it
calibrated.

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck

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Old November 19th 03, 01:10 PM
Ed Price
 
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"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items.

A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability

is
often not a concern.


If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size.


SNIP

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck


You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

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Old November 19th 03, 02:32 PM
Chuck Harris
 
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Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn


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Old November 19th 03, 05:56 PM
gw
 
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Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


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Old November 19th 03, 07:57 PM
Chuck Harris
 
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gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...


-Chuck, WA3UQV


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?



Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

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Old November 19th 03, 08:41 PM
Bill Higdon
 
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Chuck Harris wrote:
gw wrote:

Chuck Harris wrote in message
...



-Chuck, WA3UQV



does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?




Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck


So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill

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Old November 19th 03, 10:14 PM
Steve Nosko
 
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FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
Steve, k,9,d,c,i


"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message

...

-Chuck, WA3UQV


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?



Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck



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Old November 20th 03, 01:44 AM
gw
 
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Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...


-Chuck, WA3UQV


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?



Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck


perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.
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Old November 20th 03, 09:38 AM
Ed Price
 
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"gw" wrote in message
om...
Chuck Harris wrote in message

...

SNIP

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Sorry, I never had much use for TRS-80's. But I do have a Commodore PET; a
very original one (with the black tape deck). It has an IEEE-488 port, and a
Basic that can control any IEEE-488 instrument. And, considering that it has
a built-in monochrome monitor, it qualifies as a genuine boat-anchor, since
it glows in the dark. g

Ed



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