"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.

Do you think that this may be a part of the problem with society these
days?

No. I believe the problems lays in the up bring and teachings
from Family & Friends in most cases.

I would agree, and add that upbringing doesn't end at age 18.


If no one is willing to support the laws, and instead place that
job fully on the shoulders of LEO, is it any surprise that there are
so many people willing to ignore those same laws?

I think you should support the job that Law enforcement is doing,
but that does not mean chasing down speeders and people that do
break minor laws.

People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!


Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.


Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.



What event(s) took place that made it seem more "cool" to be a law
breaking rebel, rather than someone who obeys the rules?

Don't know, again up bringing, but look at it this way, if
there were no traffic fines, cities, counties etc etc would
be broke.

A capitalist solution to a social problem. Turn the problem into a
windfall. Maybe if the fines were raised sufficiently, people might be
less inclined to take the risk.


When did social responsibility give way to social indifference?

Oh, mid 70's I would think.

I would agree. I'm still waiting for the pendulum to swing back.


Dave
"Sandbagger"


Landshark


--
Courage is what it takes to stand up
and speak; courage is also what it
takes to sit down and listen.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 03:43:39 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.


As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street). On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.


Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.

We're not really parting company. I'm not advocating that you play
cop. But reporting the issue repeatedly WILL get the attention of the
LEO's, and the problem will get some attention. If nobody takes the
responsibility to make those reports, the cops will think that all's
well in happytown.

Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2004 03:43:39 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware
of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their
own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff,
constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot
less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?

There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread. I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up
for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility
of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.

We're not really parting company. I'm not advocating that you play
cop. But reporting the issue repeatedly WILL get the attention of the
LEO's, and the problem will get some attention. If nobody takes the
responsibility to make those reports, the cops will think that all's
well in happytown.

Dave
"Sandbagger"


Landshark


--
Most true happiness comes
from one's inner life, from the
disposition of the mind and soul.
Admittedly, a good inner life is
hard to achieve, especially in
these trying times. It takes
reflection and contemplation
and self-discipline.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:



Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot
less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?

There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.

So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?



Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.


As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.


On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Those petitions and other actions that you take can be admitted as
evidence. Their lack of response can then be interpreted as "gross
negligence". Most juries would be more inclined to side with the dead
kid's parents than a do-nothing politician.

Maybe if a few cases set precedent, other local politicians will sit
up and take notice.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.

So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?

There's not much you can do about society as a whole. You
can only make your part of society the best you can. Raise
the children with good values and to respect their elders.
I can not see the regress of CB as the eminent downfall
of society.



Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a
speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.

Yes Technology is available, but it won't be used, at least
probably not in our lifetime. As for the rental car agency,
they were turning them into the state troopers, the DA then
threw the cases out of court.



As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance"
law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.

Speed limit in this state on the highways and freeways is
between 55 & 75 MPH.

On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Those petitions and other actions that you take can be admitted as
evidence. Their lack of response can then be interpreted as "gross
negligence". Most juries would be more inclined to side with the dead
kid's parents than a do-nothing politician.

Again, good luck trying in this state. I'm sure there is some sort of
immunity laws that protect the *******s.

Maybe if a few cases set precedent, other local politicians will sit
up and take notice.

Doubtful, look at the how we had to spend billions to get rid of
a governor, that took a surplus of billions of dollars and made it
a deficit of billions of dollars in only a couple of years.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

Landshark


--
The world is good-natured to people
who are good natured.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 04:13:14 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.

So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?

There's not much you can do about society as a whole.

A single individual cannot make much of a difference. But if every
individual joined with other like-minded individuals, pretty soon you
develop a force to be reckoned with.

You
can only make your part of society the best you can. Raise
the children with good values and to respect their elders.

A lot of good it does when they are thrust into a world which does not
share those well taught values. When your (and mine) kid has to hang
out with other kids who think it's cool to be stupid, indifferent, or
rebellious (even if they don't fully understand what they're rebelling
against), all of that good upbringing goes out the window unless they
have a strong support system.


I can not see the regress of CB as the eminent downfall
of society.

One is simply a reflection of the other. The gradual, but definite,
regression of morality and good character is evident on both CB and in
society as a whole. Having been involved with CB radio for the better
part of 30+ years, I had a front row seat for the show.

How far this "regression" continues remains to be seen.



Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.

Yes Technology is available, but it won't be used, at least
probably not in our lifetime.

I'm curious to know why you feel that way.

As for the rental car agency,
they were turning them into the state troopers, the DA then
threw the cases out of court.

Most likely a case of expectation of privacy. A joke. People have the
right to privacy so that they can break laws with a reasonable chance
of getting away with it.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.

Speed limit in this state on the highways and freeways is
between 55 & 75 MPH.

We still have many highways which are 55 MPH. Others (out of
residential areas) are 65 MPH. None higher than that.



On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Those petitions and other actions that you take can be admitted as
evidence. Their lack of response can then be interpreted as "gross
negligence". Most juries would be more inclined to side with the dead
kid's parents than a do-nothing politician.

Again, good luck trying in this state. I'm sure there is some sort of
immunity laws that protect the *******s.

You might be right, but if no one wants to try, we'll never get what
we want.


Maybe if a few cases set precedent, other local politicians will sit
up and take notice.

Doubtful, look at the how we had to spend billions to get rid of
a governor, that took a surplus of billions of dollars and made it
a deficit of billions of dollars in only a couple of years.

Sometimes you don't have to take on the top dog to make a precedent,
although you probably need the right circumstances and the right
visibility.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 May 2004 04:13:14 GMT, "Landshark"
So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?

There's not much you can do about society as a whole.

A single individual cannot make much of a difference. But if every
individual joined with other like-minded individuals, pretty soon you
develop a force to be reckoned with.

A noble idea, but IMHO not viable

You
can only make your part of society the best you can. Raise
the children with good values and to respect their elders.

A lot of good it does when they are thrust into a world which does not
share those well taught values. When your (and mine) kid has to hang
out with other kids who think it's cool to be stupid, indifferent, or
rebellious (even if they don't fully understand what they're rebelling
against), all of that good upbringing goes out the window unless they
have a strong support system.


Actually it does a lot of good. If you taught them right and they
can tell the difference between right & wrong, they won't hangout
with those "other" kids. As you said, did dumb things when younger
and since have learned better, that's what you hope you can instill
into your children, but maybe a little earlier than you & I.


I can not see the regress of CB as the eminent downfall
of society.

One is simply a reflection of the other. The gradual, but definite,
regression of morality and good character is evident on both CB and in
society as a whole. Having been involved with CB radio for the better
part of 30+ years, I had a front row seat for the show.

How far this "regression" continues remains to be seen.


Well a lot has to do with location, location, location. Been
through a lot of place in the state and mostly the big cities
have the agitators. The burbs and small places usually are
pretty A-typical type of CB.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a
road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type
message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit
of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes
when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.

Yes Technology is available, but it won't be used, at least
probably not in our lifetime.

I'm curious to know why you feel that way.

I just don't think the general public at large is going to let
the government know where they are at all times, as
you said "Big Brother".

As for the rental car agency,
they were turning them into the state troopers, the DA then
threw the cases out of court.

Most likely a case of expectation of privacy. A joke. People have the
right to privacy so that they can break laws with a reasonable chance
of getting away with it.

Well yes & no. You are right on they can break laws, but those
same laws are there to protect you and I.


Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I
can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.

Speed limit in this state on the highways and freeways is
between 55 & 75 MPH.

We still have many highways which are 55 MPH. Others (out of
residential areas) are 65 MPH. None higher than that.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

From: (Dave=A0Hall)
On Fri, 14 May 2004 04:13:14 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:
"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:
There's a difference with "community" involvement and State involvement.
While I might say something to someone in my town, I will not bother
with some guy on the highway, that would never see me again in a million
years.

So, can I assume then that you have no

alternative answer? Should we just allow

society to regress in much the same manner

as operators on CB radio did?


There's not much you can do about society as a whole.


A single individual cannot make much of a

difference. But if every individual joined with

other like-minded individuals, pretty soon you

develop a force to be reckoned with.

You
can only make your part of society the best you can. Raise the children
with good values and to respect their elders.

A lot of good it does when they are thrust into

a world which does not share those well

taught values.

_
YOUR values are shared by a troubled minority of N8WWM, KC8LDO and
N7VCF, according to your many posts.



When your (and mine) kid has

to hang out with other kids who think it's cool

to be stupid, indifferent, or rebellious (even if

they don't fully understand what they're

rebelling against), all of that good upbringing

goes out the window unless they have a

strong support system.


I can not see the regress of CB as the eminent downfall of society.


One is simply a reflection of the other.

_
Only in your shallow mind.

_
The gradual, but definite, regression of

morality and good character is evident on both
CB and in society as a whole. Having been

involved with CB radio for the better part of

30+ years, I had a front row seat for the show.
How far this "regression" continues remains to
be seen.
_
Meanwhile, you are reactive and not proactive. You do nothing but whine
on an obscure corner of usenet about all that upsets you and you blame
it on others, failing to compehend your reactive (not proactive)
approach is more part the problem.
_



People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe

that's what it takes when you can't trust people
to behave on their own.



To adhere to what *you* an extremist and minority view feels is
acceptable...LOL..perhaps you ought move to a country that shares your
views, because in the US, such bull**** is just that,,,bull****. Stalin
echoed the same words when he said the masses can not be trusted to act
on their own free will without the guidance of his governing hand.


_
Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency was doing
that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers, the courts ordered
them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car

agency and a provision in the law. If the law

were changed, it would be allowed.


non-sequitur,,,"And IF the queen had balls, she'd be king".



Your testimony only proves that the

technology is viable.
_
And yours proves only that you need include "what IFs" becasue you have
no validity.

_
Yes Technology is available, but it won't be used, at least probably not
in our lifetime.


People have the right to privacy so that they

can break laws with a reasonable chance of

getting away with it.




That is the most idiotic thing you have ever said to dat, Herr Hall, but
one for the memory banks. You have some serious issues with freedom and
should move to a country that curbs the freedoms you want taken away.
_
Again, good luck trying in this state. I'm sure
there is some sort of immunity laws that protect the *******s.

You might be right, but if no one wants to try,

we'll never get what we want.



WE? None share your Stalinist views, Davie-son, The only folks you speak
for is N8WWM, KC8LDO, N7VCF and yourself. Your extremist views seeking
to do away with privacy and make everyone conform to your warped views
is as anti-American as one can get.
You're a poor lost soul who dwells on what he can't have and blames
everyone else (IE: society) for your woes.


Sometimes you don't have to take on the top

dog to make a precedent, although you

probably need the right circumstances and the
right visibility.



And your approach is all reactive, something you "lambast" others for,
hence, one more reason for your apt fitting tag "hypocrite".



=A0Dave

"Sandbagger"



"People have the right to privacy so that they can break laws with a
reasonable chance of getting away with it." - N3CVJ Dave "The Hypocrite"
Hall



"It is the citizen's duty to enforce the laws" - N3CVJ Dave "The
Hypocrite" Hall

dave the "hypocrite" Hall, N3CVJ ignorantly professed:
Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you

do not agree with my idea of active community
involvement in awareness of laws, then what

would you suggest that we, as a society, do to
stem the rising tide of indifference to laws?

The Bush administration released just this week domestic crime has
decreased steadily over the last three years. Stop lying to try and
bolster your psychotic analogies related to a cb newsgroup. You're all
washed up here, hypocrite. Stop trying so hard to gain acceptance. You
ruined yourself and your hammie reputation long ago with your lies.