On Tue, 03 May 2005 09:00:00 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

snip
The difference between you and I is only a matter of degree. When you
make relative value judgements, this is the danger you run into. When
you apply logic in the justification for allowing certain behaviors,
the same logic can be applied to a successive list of increasingly
abhorrent behaviors and practices. It comes down to what you are
willing to tolerate. Once you start down that slippery slope, there's
no turning back, without abandoning your logic and adopting some sort
of "bigotry".


That "degree of morality" is established by society, not you, and not
any religious activist group. The overwhelming majority of people
(99%) feel that murder, sex crimes, etc are 'immoral'. But there
isn't much of a majority condemning homosexuality. -That's- how you
make a "relative value judgment".


snip
A mere half-century ago there were some people who didn't like the
idea of treating black people as equals. They especially didn't want
blacks to be able to vote. Some even used the argument that a black
vote would diminish the value of their own vote, which was a weak
rationalization of their racist attitudes.

You are confusing racism with morality. They're not the same, even if
some of the methods seem similar.


Now -there's- a quote for the Dave Hall hall-of-shame.


snip
If you lead a monogamous lifestyle and do not engage in dangerous
recreational habits, your chances of contracting AIDS is minuscule.


HIV doesn't care if you are gay or straight. And maybe you missed the
boat on this one too, but a lot of people got the disease from blood
transfusions. So if you are going to suggest that AIDS is a disease
that is contracted only by evil people then you are even more ignorant
than you have so far demonstrated.


Science therefore vindicated the gay community. But it also exposed
people to their own misperceptions about homosexuality. Apparently you
weren't paying attention.

I was paying attention. To the facts.

There are many who believe that AIDS is the work of God, sent to
punish those who engage in "unworthy" behavior. It's easy for those
who have little faith in a supreme being to deny this possibility. But
it's interesting in where the highest percentages of HIV cases are,
and what activities place people at the most risk. Coincidence?


I was wrong about you, Dave. I thought you were intelligent but a
little misguided. Now I see that you are a certifiable holy-roller
racist whacko.


snip
Well, kick back and pop a
brew, Dave, because this is America,

A nation founded by Christian people based on Christian doctrine, even
if the 1st amendment decries that there is no "official" state
sponsored religion.


Not just the First Amendment, Dave. The concept is reflected in the
main body of the Constitution; "...no religious test shall ever be
required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States," a clause which was unanimously adopted by the
Constitutional Convention.

This country was founded on the principle of religious freedom (as
well as other important principles). After being forced by England to
practice only one religion (the religion of the state), the new
Americans wanted people to have the freedom to practice religion
according to their belief, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam,
Bhuddism, Taoism, Monoanimism..... or even no religion at all.

The USA is not, nor has it ever been, a Christian state.


and you have the right to
practice your religion as you see fit -- just let the rest of us do
the same.

As long as what you do doesn't infringe on what I do or diminish the
values that this country was originally founded on.


Gay marriage doesn't change your legal rights and responsibilities. It
doesn't change your tax filing status. It doesn't give your kids birth
defects. It doesn't invalidate your will. It doesn't change your life
insurance policy premiums, or any other bills you pay. It doesn't
change the color of your house, the mileage of your car, or how fast
the weeds grow in your garden. It doesn't affect you in any way except
the way you feel.

And -you- are responsible for the way you feel, not -anybody- else.
There is nothing in the Constitution that dictates how a person should
feel. If gay marriage weakens the value of your marriage, it does so
only because you let it, and that's nobody's fault but your own.

If your bigoted brain had any intelligence you would realize that gay
marriage would -strengthen- the value of your marriage because it
provides a contrast to your own definition of the union. But that's
not the case. You just hate homosexuals. It's as simple as that, isn't
it, Dave?


snip
..... Or do you support the position
of right-wing conservative Christians who say (by their actions) that
any participation of fags in America's free-market economy should be
supressed?

Sometimes politics is at odds with economic considerations. Sometimes
you have to cut off your own nose to make a much larger point. That's
called "principle"


A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.


snip
The "right" choice is any choice that isn't unconstitutional.

The constitution is relative as well. It was framed by Christian
people with their religious inspired morality contained within its
wording.


You have obviously never read it.


snip
If you choose to reject science and
logic, that's your business.

Quite contrary. Logic supports the existence of a creator or, more
generally, the concept of intelligent design. Our whole ecosystem, the
intricate specialization of the various functions of our bodies and
other aspects of nature are far too complex to have occurred and
evolved at random. There is simply not enough order in chaos for this
to happen.


I see you slept through history -and- science.


If I'm wrong then you can rest assured
that I'll pay for my indiscretions -- but that's -my- business, not
your's.

Yes, it is. But it's my business if you try to poison others by
"immoral" thinking. And hence we have the classic "moral dilemma".


No, it's -not- your business if I try to "poison" others by stating
that I'm an atheist. You have just as much right to declare that you
are a Christian (or whatever warped permutation of religion you have
adopted to validate your "core beliefs"). And no group of Christians,
no matter how large, has the right to impose it's version of morality
on me. This is 21st Century America, not the dark ages or the Spanish
Inquisition. But it -is- your business to abide by the Constitution
the United States, which clearly states that religion has no place in
this government. If that makes you feel bad, tuff ****. Learn to live
with it or get out. I would highly recommend the latter.


snip
These "Christians" really need to start practicing what they
preach. Or at least how to live and let live.

Not when abhorrent behavior is cancerous to their way of life. They
have a right to fight for what they believe in, just as much as those
who would throw traditional morality to the wind in support of the
latest hedonistic pop-culture fad.


Rock and roll is here to stay, Dave.


snip
Once again you are confused, Dave. It was statutory law that initiated
the Constitutional challenge. The statute was -overthrown- by the
Supreme Court, not established.

Exactly. But what right should a branch of government which is
supposed to interpret and apply the law, have in making or overturning
standing law? That is the job for the legislature.


Oh dear god, you really don't have any clue about how the government
works, do you? Three branches of government? Checks and balances?
Seperataion of powers? But why should I be suprised -- you haven't
even read the Constitution.


And case law is just as much 'law' as
statutory law because of the system of 'checks and balances' -- to
suggest that a law is something less because it is a "judicial ruling"
is completely bogus.

I call it "overstepping their bounds". No law that is made by the
legislature should be struck down by a panel of judges without debate,
which should include the legislature who passed the law in the first
place.


When I realize that people like you vote, it comes as no suprise that
Bush was re-elected..... he has great appeal with the ignorant.

It's clear that you never learned the basics of your own government.
Just like you never learned the basics of electronics. The problem is
that you can't possibly make an informed decision about who to vote
for if you don't even know the job description! Climb down off your
morality horse and learn about your own country before you wage a holy
war against other Americans. And yes, even homosexuals can be American
citizens. Does that diminish the value of your citizenship? If it does
then you know what you can do, don't you Dave?







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