OOppps you are right -- I shouldn't have sed anywhere.
Of course ground wave may get out to 100 miles. See my other post -- The Anon Keyboard I doubt, therefore I might be "Bill Turner" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:01:47 -0800, "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote: On 160M in the day time in the summer with low power -- you ain't going anywhere __________________________________________________ _______ This is true but not for the reason you might think. 160 meters has excellent groundwave propagation; better than any other amateur band in fact, but the lack of stations is the real reason 160 is mostly dead in the daytime. It's a self fulfilling prophecy - nobody is on, so I'm not going to get on either. The same thing happens on 10 meters at the bottom of the sunspot cycle even though 10 is open nearly every day to somewhere. -- Bill W6WRT |
Bill Turner wrote:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:01:33 -0600, Cecil Moore wrote: Let's see, would I rather switch knife switches at my operating position or go outside in a Texas Thunder Storm to attach the pigtails? At my age, I could develop pneumonia or catch the flu (no flu shot this year). Pneumonia and/or flu is not simple or cheap. Think I'll stick with my Ladder-Line Length Selector. :-) __________________________________________________ _______ You misunderstand. On a sailboat, the pigtails for selecting L-networks could (and should) be inside the boat, right under the eyepad for the antenna. Pneumonia not required. -- Bill W6WRT No possible way that could be accomodated with any degree of safety or convenience at all Bill. On a sailboat, the conventional way to run a long piece of wire is up the mast at the stern. Either a wire or an insultated backstay is used. The backstay is the guy wire at the back of the boat holding the mast up. Insulators can be cut into the backstay allowing it to be used as an antenna. I don't care for that much as it seems possible for the backstay insulators to fail (even though the manufacturers claim otherwise), leading to a dismasting. People die that way. So I run a simple copper wire up the back between the 2 backstays. At the stern of most sailboats, there are exterior storage lockers. A very heavy stainless steel "chain plate" is attached to the hull at the stern, and the back stay (or in my case stays, as I have two) are attached to those chain plates. My chain plates are right on the transom which is typical of most sailboats. That's RIGHT at the back of the boat. There is a stern locker nearby for storage of stuff you want to use in the cockpit. That is a typical layout for most sailboats. Then, heading forward there is a cockpit area, then the companionway down into the cabin. Below the cockpit is engine, and no living space. The livingspace typically begins at the companionway. Typically, the radio is located at the nav station, which is midship in the cabin, in my case about 15 feet from the stern locker where the tuner is located. My boat is quite typical of most sailboats. There is no living space in the vicinity of the transom nor is there living space under the cockpit. Some sailboats feature a center cockpit, in which case a large master stateroom is usually under the back of the boat. That's not where a radio belongs either. It belongs at the nav station. In other words, in order to use pigtails "right under the antenna" as you suggest I would have to go outside of the cabin by climbing up the companionway, walk to the very back of the boat (a place you do not want to be when in heavy weather), open a stern locker, get down on my hands and knees and fiddle with the pigtails whilst pitching about as if in a washing machine of the spin cycle. Then go (stagger really) back inside to use the radio. Switch bands? Do the whole thing again. By the way in heavy weather, leaving the cabin also entails strapping on a heavy safety harness, possibly foul weather wear, and then attaching the safety harness to a line that is attached to the boat, before exiting the cabin. As you can surely appreciate, pigtails or any other mechanical connections to be messed with would simply not work in the environmnent. Simply put, the only practical solution on a sailboat is a tuner. That is why I have never yet (in over 25 years of serious messing with boats and countless sea miles under my keel) seen a ham or marine SSB equipped boat without a tuner. It is the ONLY practical solution. |
Bill Turner wrote:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:01:33 -0600, Cecil Moore wrote: Let's see, would I rather switch knife switches at my operating position or go outside in a Texas Thunder Storm to attach the pigtails? At my age, I could develop pneumonia or catch the flu (no flu shot this year). Pneumonia and/or flu is not simple or cheap. Think I'll stick with my Ladder-Line Length Selector. :-) __________________________________________________ _______ You misunderstand. On a sailboat, the pigtails for selecting L-networks could (and should) be inside the boat, right under the eyepad for the antenna. Pneumonia not required. -- Bill W6WRT No possible way that could be accomodated with any degree of safety or convenience at all Bill. On a sailboat, the conventional way to run a long piece of wire is up the mast at the stern. Either a wire or an insultated backstay is used. The backstay is the guy wire at the back of the boat holding the mast up. Insulators can be cut into the backstay allowing it to be used as an antenna. I don't care for that much as it seems possible for the backstay insulators to fail (even though the manufacturers claim otherwise), leading to a dismasting. People die that way. So I run a simple copper wire up the back between the 2 backstays. At the stern of most sailboats, there are exterior storage lockers. A very heavy stainless steel "chain plate" is attached to the hull at the stern, and the back stay (or in my case stays, as I have two) are attached to those chain plates. My chain plates are right on the transom which is typical of most sailboats. That's RIGHT at the back of the boat. There is a stern locker nearby for storage of stuff you want to use in the cockpit. That is a typical layout for most sailboats. Then, heading forward there is a cockpit area, then the companionway down into the cabin. Below the cockpit is engine, and no living space. The livingspace typically begins at the companionway. Typically, the radio is located at the nav station, which is midship in the cabin, in my case about 15 feet from the stern locker where the tuner is located. My boat is quite typical of most sailboats. There is no living space in the vicinity of the transom nor is there living space under the cockpit. Some sailboats feature a center cockpit, in which case a large master stateroom is usually under the back of the boat. That's not where a radio belongs either. It belongs at the nav station. In other words, in order to use pigtails "right under the antenna" as you suggest I would have to go outside of the cabin by climbing up the companionway, walk to the very back of the boat (a place you do not want to be when in heavy weather), open a stern locker, get down on my hands and knees and fiddle with the pigtails whilst pitching about as if in a washing machine of the spin cycle. Then go (stagger really) back inside to use the radio. Switch bands? Do the whole thing again. By the way in heavy weather, leaving the cabin also entails strapping on a heavy safety harness, possibly foul weather wear, and then attaching the safety harness to a line that is attached to the boat, before exiting the cabin. As you can surely appreciate, pigtails or any other mechanical connections to be messed with would simply not work in the environmnent. Simply put, the only practical solution on a sailboat is a tuner. That is why I have never yet (in over 25 years of serious messing with boats and countless sea miles under my keel) seen a ham or marine SSB equipped boat without a tuner. It is the ONLY practical solution. |
There should be no problem at all with some of the antenna being below
deck. It would be good to keep it away from metal stuff of course. Longer horizontal runs tend to raise issues, though. Probably a greater chance of coupling rf into the boat's other electrical systems, and a long run of 20 feet or so (say from the backstay to a nav station amidships) can radically alter the radiation pattern. Maybe for the good, maybe not. And that is the main reason that manual tuners are questionable choices for use with backstay antennas. Nobody wants to try to manually tune a backstay antenna located at the stern if the rig is 15=20 feet away. To avoid this run, some of us have resorted to loading the shrouds (and the whole rig as well) with an L-network quite successfully. I believe a separate wire run up a flag halyard would be an easier antenna to tune, but it would introduce other issues. As Gary has said, it is difficult (but only mildly so) to get a resonant quarter-wave in a backstay. It would probably require an antenna impedance analyzer to find resonance. Make it a bit short and add a few turns of wire (cheap and reliable) to bring it to resonance. Chuck Bill Turner wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:15:13 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: It's kind of difficult to get a resonant quarter wave into a back stay as you don't usually know where ground is. Ground can be any number of feet from where the feed point is on a boat. Every thing above real ground is antenna. __________________________________________________ _______ Correct. For simplicity, figure the feed point is right where the coax shield connects to the ground plane. As you said, everything above that is antenna. On a fiberglass sailboat, the hull is quite transparent to RF on HF frequencies, so the presence of a few feet of antenna inside the hull is of no consequence. -- Bill W6WRT |
There should be no problem at all with some of the antenna being below
deck. It would be good to keep it away from metal stuff of course. Longer horizontal runs tend to raise issues, though. Probably a greater chance of coupling rf into the boat's other electrical systems, and a long run of 20 feet or so (say from the backstay to a nav station amidships) can radically alter the radiation pattern. Maybe for the good, maybe not. And that is the main reason that manual tuners are questionable choices for use with backstay antennas. Nobody wants to try to manually tune a backstay antenna located at the stern if the rig is 15=20 feet away. To avoid this run, some of us have resorted to loading the shrouds (and the whole rig as well) with an L-network quite successfully. I believe a separate wire run up a flag halyard would be an easier antenna to tune, but it would introduce other issues. As Gary has said, it is difficult (but only mildly so) to get a resonant quarter-wave in a backstay. It would probably require an antenna impedance analyzer to find resonance. Make it a bit short and add a few turns of wire (cheap and reliable) to bring it to resonance. Chuck Bill Turner wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:15:13 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: It's kind of difficult to get a resonant quarter wave into a back stay as you don't usually know where ground is. Ground can be any number of feet from where the feed point is on a boat. Every thing above real ground is antenna. __________________________________________________ _______ Correct. For simplicity, figure the feed point is right where the coax shield connects to the ground plane. As you said, everything above that is antenna. On a fiberglass sailboat, the hull is quite transparent to RF on HF frequencies, so the presence of a few feet of antenna inside the hull is of no consequence. -- Bill W6WRT |
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:10:51 -0500, James wrote:
Bill Turner wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:01:33 -0600, Cecil Moore wrote: Let's see, would I rather switch knife switches at my operating position or go outside in a Texas Thunder Storm to attach the pigtails? At my age, I could develop pneumonia or catch the flu (no flu shot this year). Pneumonia and/or flu is not simple or cheap. Think I'll stick with my Ladder-Line Length Selector. :-) __________________________________________________ _______ You misunderstand. On a sailboat, the pigtails for selecting L-networks could (and should) be inside the boat, right under the eyepad for the antenna. Pneumonia not required. -- Bill W6WRT No possible way that could be accomodated with any degree of safety or convenience at all Bill. On a sailboat, the conventional way to run a long piece of wire is up the mast at the stern. Either a wire or an insultated backstay is used. The backstay is the guy wire at the back of the boat holding the mast up. Insulators can be cut into the backstay allowing it to be used as an antenna. I don't care for that much as it seems possible for the backstay insulators to fail (even though the manufacturers claim otherwise), leading to a dismasting. People die that way. So I run a simple copper wire up the back between the 2 backstays. At the stern of most sailboats, there are exterior storage lockers. A very heavy stainless steel "chain plate" is attached to the hull at the stern, and the back stay (or in my case stays, as I have two) are attached to those chain plates. My chain plates are right on the transom which is typical of most sailboats. That's RIGHT at the back of the boat. There is a stern locker nearby for storage of stuff you want to use in the cockpit. That is a typical layout for most sailboats. Then, heading forward there is a cockpit area, then the companionway down into the cabin. Below the cockpit is engine, and no living space. The livingspace typically begins at the companionway. Typically, the radio is located at the nav station, which is midship in the cabin, in my case about 15 feet from the stern locker where the tuner is located. My boat is quite typical of most sailboats. There is no living space in the vicinity of the transom nor is there living space under the cockpit. Some sailboats feature a center cockpit, in which case a large master stateroom is usually under the back of the boat. That's not where a radio belongs either. It belongs at the nav station. In other words, in order to use pigtails "right under the antenna" as you suggest I would have to go outside of the cabin by climbing up the companionway, walk to the very back of the boat (a place you do not want to be when in heavy weather), open a stern locker, get down on my hands and knees and fiddle with the pigtails whilst pitching about as if in a washing machine of the spin cycle. Then go (stagger really) back inside to use the radio. Switch bands? Do the whole thing again. By the way in heavy weather, leaving the cabin also entails strapping on a heavy safety harness, possibly foul weather wear, and then attaching the safety harness to a line that is attached to the boat, before exiting the cabin. As you can surely appreciate, pigtails or any other mechanical connections to be messed with would simply not work in the environmnent. Simply put, the only practical solution on a sailboat is a tuner. That is why I have never yet (in over 25 years of serious messing with boats and countless sea miles under my keel) seen a ham or marine SSB equipped boat without a tuner. It is the ONLY practical solution. Aman James! The autotuner is the bet thing since sliced bread for a boat. 73 Gary K4FMX |
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:10:51 -0500, James wrote:
Bill Turner wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:01:33 -0600, Cecil Moore wrote: Let's see, would I rather switch knife switches at my operating position or go outside in a Texas Thunder Storm to attach the pigtails? At my age, I could develop pneumonia or catch the flu (no flu shot this year). Pneumonia and/or flu is not simple or cheap. Think I'll stick with my Ladder-Line Length Selector. :-) __________________________________________________ _______ You misunderstand. On a sailboat, the pigtails for selecting L-networks could (and should) be inside the boat, right under the eyepad for the antenna. Pneumonia not required. -- Bill W6WRT No possible way that could be accomodated with any degree of safety or convenience at all Bill. On a sailboat, the conventional way to run a long piece of wire is up the mast at the stern. Either a wire or an insultated backstay is used. The backstay is the guy wire at the back of the boat holding the mast up. Insulators can be cut into the backstay allowing it to be used as an antenna. I don't care for that much as it seems possible for the backstay insulators to fail (even though the manufacturers claim otherwise), leading to a dismasting. People die that way. So I run a simple copper wire up the back between the 2 backstays. At the stern of most sailboats, there are exterior storage lockers. A very heavy stainless steel "chain plate" is attached to the hull at the stern, and the back stay (or in my case stays, as I have two) are attached to those chain plates. My chain plates are right on the transom which is typical of most sailboats. That's RIGHT at the back of the boat. There is a stern locker nearby for storage of stuff you want to use in the cockpit. That is a typical layout for most sailboats. Then, heading forward there is a cockpit area, then the companionway down into the cabin. Below the cockpit is engine, and no living space. The livingspace typically begins at the companionway. Typically, the radio is located at the nav station, which is midship in the cabin, in my case about 15 feet from the stern locker where the tuner is located. My boat is quite typical of most sailboats. There is no living space in the vicinity of the transom nor is there living space under the cockpit. Some sailboats feature a center cockpit, in which case a large master stateroom is usually under the back of the boat. That's not where a radio belongs either. It belongs at the nav station. In other words, in order to use pigtails "right under the antenna" as you suggest I would have to go outside of the cabin by climbing up the companionway, walk to the very back of the boat (a place you do not want to be when in heavy weather), open a stern locker, get down on my hands and knees and fiddle with the pigtails whilst pitching about as if in a washing machine of the spin cycle. Then go (stagger really) back inside to use the radio. Switch bands? Do the whole thing again. By the way in heavy weather, leaving the cabin also entails strapping on a heavy safety harness, possibly foul weather wear, and then attaching the safety harness to a line that is attached to the boat, before exiting the cabin. As you can surely appreciate, pigtails or any other mechanical connections to be messed with would simply not work in the environmnent. Simply put, the only practical solution on a sailboat is a tuner. That is why I have never yet (in over 25 years of serious messing with boats and countless sea miles under my keel) seen a ham or marine SSB equipped boat without a tuner. It is the ONLY practical solution. Aman James! The autotuner is the bet thing since sliced bread for a boat. 73 Gary K4FMX |
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:20:37 -0800, Bill Turner
wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:15:13 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: It's kind of difficult to get a resonant quarter wave into a back stay as you don't usually know where ground is. Ground can be any number of feet from where the feed point is on a boat. Every thing above real ground is antenna. _________________________________________________ ________ Correct. For simplicity, figure the feed point is right where the coax shield connects to the ground plane. As you said, everything above that is antenna. On a fiberglass sailboat, the hull is quite transparent to RF on HF frequencies, so the presence of a few feet of antenna inside the hull is of no consequence. When I said "you don't usually know where ground is" I meant that on a boat what may look like real ground may not be. Usually there are a lot of different things tied together to try and get a decent ground for the radio. The length of those leads are a factor. There is no way to know for sure how long the actual ground lead is without measuring where your antenna resonates. Cut and try with a backstay is not practical. 73 Gary K4FMX |
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:20:37 -0800, Bill Turner
wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:15:13 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: It's kind of difficult to get a resonant quarter wave into a back stay as you don't usually know where ground is. Ground can be any number of feet from where the feed point is on a boat. Every thing above real ground is antenna. _________________________________________________ ________ Correct. For simplicity, figure the feed point is right where the coax shield connects to the ground plane. As you said, everything above that is antenna. On a fiberglass sailboat, the hull is quite transparent to RF on HF frequencies, so the presence of a few feet of antenna inside the hull is of no consequence. When I said "you don't usually know where ground is" I meant that on a boat what may look like real ground may not be. Usually there are a lot of different things tied together to try and get a decent ground for the radio. The length of those leads are a factor. There is no way to know for sure how long the actual ground lead is without measuring where your antenna resonates. Cut and try with a backstay is not practical. 73 Gary K4FMX |
Cecil,
Changing feed line length is a viable option for a land station, but a not-so-viable option for a sailboat. Where/how do you place it to keep it out of the way? 'Doc |
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