On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:54:59 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

mike wrote:

It's not my place to tell people how or why to use ham radio. As long
as they do it within the rules published by the FCC (NOT what YOU
think the rules should be), more power to them.

Is that right? Well, let's review these rules, shall we?

97.1 Basis and purpose

The rules and regulations in this Part are designed to provide an
amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the
following principles:

(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to
the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

This happens. Those people who do not have cellphone access just
might need that.


(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to
contribute to the advancement of the radio art.

When I hear some of the people on 2 meters locally, I wonder just
exactly what is being advanced.

Considering, however, the restrictions on development, I wonder just
exactly what good this does.. How, for instance, is contesting
helping? Not the WAS or WAC, but the DX pileups...?



(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules
which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and
technical phases of the art.

Like morse code....sigh, like the provisions for not using ASCII
until the FCC got browbeaten into allowing it. BAUDOT anyone?


(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service
of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

This does not happen very much, IMHO


(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to
enhance international goodwill.

Now this does happen, but working rare countries with a DX party is
probably not what they had in mind. And for that matter, the
frequencies from 50 on up are not too good at that... Perhaps we
ought to give them back?


......

(4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of
self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried
out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio
technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

This is probably more like what everybody is.


=====================================

I think that should do it. Now, let's review what the original poster's
requirement was:

"I can't really afford cell phone bills. I live near 5 families of
relatives in South Carolina USA, each within 1 mile of me. Each
morning and evening, I travel a long 40 mile road with no cell phone
tower in sight -- zero coverage, even if I bought a cellphone. I would
love to have a device that each of us keep in our cars, always turned
on, as well as in our homes, and it would only provide communication
among myself and my relatives. I would prefer to have something that
could not be eavesdropped very easily, but I would take whatever I
could get."

=====================================

Would you care to explain just how his communication requirements are in
any way compatible with what amateur radio represents? Is amateur radio
a substitute for a cellphone? Nope. Is it a communication system for a
family? Nope. A private and exclusive radio band that outsiders could
not monitor? Nope.

Therefore, in spite of all your arm waving and tap dancing, the
recommendation for him to take a ham radio test is way off the wall,
especially considering the fact that the man doesn't even know what it
is *and* there is already a perfect band for his needs: CB or even FRS.

You know, if he/they did get a ticket, perhaps they would be more
interested, and actually try to do some of the things you mention.




There's no question on the test that weeds out those who are obnoxious!!
Maybe there should be...


There's apparently no question on the test either that weeds out the
people who would gladly turn amateur radio into a three ring circus just
so we can have artificially inflated "numbers". Do you actually believe
that guy would ever join the ARRL, for example?

I'm not sure that the ARRL is always to our benefit.

ARES? A local club?

Possibly so, if there is one. He might just talk to some friendly
people who would get him interested in the hobby as a hobby. You
can't really tell. There might not be a local club, either.

Anything? What possible benefit can the global amateur community have
from such entrants?

Why does a person have to contribute to the global amateur community
to have a license?

How about

1) they buy equipment, keeping the manufacturers in business (what
happened to all of them, and why?)

2) He could join the pileup on a rare station and contribute to the
technology of hearing and understanding a pileup.

3) He could serve as an example of someone who has a ticket, uses a
ham rig, and perhaps enjoys it.

4) He could actually respond to an emergency in that 40 mile stretch.

5) He could respond to a weather net situation.

6) He might be interesting to talk to.

7) He and they might be able to provide some emergency communications.

8) They might enjoy themselves.

9) They might learn something.


The bottom line to me is that there are a lot of things done in
amateur radio that do not advance the state of the art, yet we do have
people out there who can help others as is needed, and have the
capability of doing the emergency stuff that is part of part 97.1

This kind of thing happens in more places than you might consider, and
has an analog in the "on topic" and "off topic" debates on some news
groups. I've seen the debates. I'd rather have off topic.

Yes, the CB craze was not too useful, and made 11 meters a bit of a
joke. However, the theory exams (and perhaps the code, it could be
debated) will keep out people who are not motivated.

I think that for the most part, the desire of the whole community that
people obey the rules and have manners is probably more important than
the tests. Even the tests do not keep out the idiots and fools. Can
you say "porkbutt song"?

Fortunately, the number of these people is few..

Just some opinions.


73 .... WA7AA

Harvey

73 ... de WB3KSE

No one has mentioned MURS. What is it....2 W or 5W. out or so? With decent
antennas, a couple of watts out on 150 mhz will go aways. Heck, RatShak has
some mobile MURS for what....$40 or so? Don't know about licensing
requirements....google for MURS and license and see what comes up.


19-1206 (portable) and 19-1210 (mobile) have been discontinued and
are in real short supply. Good luck finding them.

No one has mentioned MURS. What is it....2 W or 5W. out or so? With decent
antennas, a couple of watts out on 150 mhz will go aways. Heck, RatShak has
some mobile MURS for what....$40 or so? Don't know about licensing
requirements....google for MURS and license and see what comes up.


19-1206 (portable) and 19-1210 (mobile) have been discontinued and
are in real short supply. Good luck finding them.

wrote:

I can't really afford cell phone bills. I live near 5 families of
relatives in South Carolina USA, each within 1 mile of me. Each
morning and evening, I travel a long 40 mile road with no cell phone
tower in sight -- zero coverage, even if I bought a cellphone. I would
love to have a device that each of us keep in our cars, always turned
on, as well as in our homes, and it would only provide communication
among myself and my relatives. I would prefer to have something that
could not be eavesdropped very easily, but I would take whatever I
could get.

Get a CB radio.

- hmmm... that's cynical, isn't it?

Why would that be cynical? The CB band is a perfect fit for what he
needs. And cheap and effortless, to boot!

mike - get everyone licensed! study one day, then put the family in the
car, go to the local VEC test, get 26 questions out of 35 multiple-choice
questions correct, then go to Denny's and celebrate! a couple days later
everyone's license will appear in the FCC's ULS and you can set up a base
station and 2M comms in each car! doesn't have to cost a whole lot, either!

Yeah, that's what ham radio needs: more people with no clue what ham
radio is, no desire to use it for amateur, technological, dxing or
emergency service purposes, and whose only motivation is to save on
cellphones. There's already a band in place for such purpose and it's
called CB.


- but maybe, just maybe, someone who gets involved with ham radio just
might, and this is just a supposition, just might want to be more
involved, develop new skillsets, learn CW, and become a responsible
radio operator?

Maybe... who cares? Maybe, just maybe, if we gave away amateur radio
licenses on street corners, some of the new licensees would do all that
stuff that you mention. That is beside the point. He's not looking to
become a ham radio operator - he's looking for a cellphone substitute.
Ham radio ain't it.

- of course, if i had run into you when i first started getting involved,
i might, and i say just might, think that ham radio was populated
with ignorant, cynical, sarcastic, unfriendly, non-elmering,
un-educated losers?

I don't see where you get the idea that I am against newcomers and
novices in ham radio (not to mention how you deduct that I am all that
you mention). But this guy is neither a newcomer, nor a novice! He has
no clue what amateur radio is and he's looking for a radio communication
service that would replicate cellphones as the means of communication
with his family EXCLUSIVELY. To recommend ham radio for this is
ludicrous and ridiculous. Give it up already, you're wrong on this:

=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===

Is this clear now, once and for all?


73 (yea, right, like you mean it?)

Why wouldn't I mean it? Just because I disagree with you over what ham
radio is or is supposed to be?

73 .... WA7AA


--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

wrote:

I can't really afford cell phone bills. I live near 5 families of
relatives in South Carolina USA, each within 1 mile of me. Each
morning and evening, I travel a long 40 mile road with no cell phone
tower in sight -- zero coverage, even if I bought a cellphone. I would
love to have a device that each of us keep in our cars, always turned
on, as well as in our homes, and it would only provide communication
among myself and my relatives. I would prefer to have something that
could not be eavesdropped very easily, but I would take whatever I
could get.

Get a CB radio.

- hmmm... that's cynical, isn't it?

Why would that be cynical? The CB band is a perfect fit for what he
needs. And cheap and effortless, to boot!

mike - get everyone licensed! study one day, then put the family in the
car, go to the local VEC test, get 26 questions out of 35 multiple-choice
questions correct, then go to Denny's and celebrate! a couple days later
everyone's license will appear in the FCC's ULS and you can set up a base
station and 2M comms in each car! doesn't have to cost a whole lot, either!

Yeah, that's what ham radio needs: more people with no clue what ham
radio is, no desire to use it for amateur, technological, dxing or
emergency service purposes, and whose only motivation is to save on
cellphones. There's already a band in place for such purpose and it's
called CB.


- but maybe, just maybe, someone who gets involved with ham radio just
might, and this is just a supposition, just might want to be more
involved, develop new skillsets, learn CW, and become a responsible
radio operator?

Maybe... who cares? Maybe, just maybe, if we gave away amateur radio
licenses on street corners, some of the new licensees would do all that
stuff that you mention. That is beside the point. He's not looking to
become a ham radio operator - he's looking for a cellphone substitute.
Ham radio ain't it.

- of course, if i had run into you when i first started getting involved,
i might, and i say just might, think that ham radio was populated
with ignorant, cynical, sarcastic, unfriendly, non-elmering,
un-educated losers?

I don't see where you get the idea that I am against newcomers and
novices in ham radio (not to mention how you deduct that I am all that
you mention). But this guy is neither a newcomer, nor a novice! He has
no clue what amateur radio is and he's looking for a radio communication
service that would replicate cellphones as the means of communication
with his family EXCLUSIVELY. To recommend ham radio for this is
ludicrous and ridiculous. Give it up already, you're wrong on this:

=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===

Is this clear now, once and for all?


73 (yea, right, like you mean it?)

Why wouldn't I mean it? Just because I disagree with you over what ham
radio is or is supposed to be?

73 .... WA7AA


--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Harvey White wrote:

[big snip]

Why does a person have to contribute to the global amateur community
to have a license?


Oh, sweet mother of mercy! He doesn't. You guys are completely missing
the point: the original poster was looking for a radio substitute for a
cellphone so that he could talk to his family. That's it.

To recommend taking a ham radio test for this is ludicrous and ridiculous.

=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===


All else you wrote is irrelevant because he's not looking to become a
ham to begin with. I can't believe I'm having this discussion. Would we
be talking about all this if someone came in asking for a radio
communication advice for his business? Would it be reasonable to offer
him to take a ham radio test? If not, then why is this reasonable in the
original example?

73 .... WA7AA



--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Harvey White wrote:

[big snip]

Why does a person have to contribute to the global amateur community
to have a license?


Oh, sweet mother of mercy! He doesn't. You guys are completely missing
the point: the original poster was looking for a radio substitute for a
cellphone so that he could talk to his family. That's it.

To recommend taking a ham radio test for this is ludicrous and ridiculous.

=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===


All else you wrote is irrelevant because he's not looking to become a
ham to begin with. I can't believe I'm having this discussion. Would we
be talking about all this if someone came in asking for a radio
communication advice for his business? Would it be reasonable to offer
him to take a ham radio test? If not, then why is this reasonable in the
original example?

73 .... WA7AA



--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Harvey White wrote:

[big snip]

Why does a person have to contribute to the global amateur community
to have a license?



Oh, sweet mother of mercy! He doesn't. You guys are completely missing
the point: the original poster was looking for a radio substitute for a
cellphone so that he could talk to his family. That's it.

And there ain't nothin' wrong with that.


To recommend taking a ham radio test for this is ludicrous and ridiculous.

He was presented with several alternatives.
How about you let HIM decide what's ridiculous!


=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===

I haven't had a radio conversation that couldn't have been handled by
a cellphone...at least not since the cellphone was invented.
I'd better go tear up my ham licence right now!!! Just for you...


All else you wrote is irrelevant because he's not looking to become a
ham to begin with. I can't believe I'm having this discussion. Would we
be talking about all this if someone came in asking for a radio
communication advice for his business? Would it be reasonable to offer
him to take a ham radio test? If not, then why is this reasonable in the
original example?

I agree that it's mostly irrelevant to him. I'm bitchin' at YOU for
telling him (and me) what we should and shouldn't do. And 'cause I like
a good troll.

mike


73 .... WA7AA

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Harvey White wrote:

[big snip]

Why does a person have to contribute to the global amateur community
to have a license?



Oh, sweet mother of mercy! He doesn't. You guys are completely missing
the point: the original poster was looking for a radio substitute for a
cellphone so that he could talk to his family. That's it.

And there ain't nothin' wrong with that.


To recommend taking a ham radio test for this is ludicrous and ridiculous.

He was presented with several alternatives.
How about you let HIM decide what's ridiculous!


=== === ===
FCC rules: §97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.

=== === ===

I haven't had a radio conversation that couldn't have been handled by
a cellphone...at least not since the cellphone was invented.
I'd better go tear up my ham licence right now!!! Just for you...


All else you wrote is irrelevant because he's not looking to become a
ham to begin with. I can't believe I'm having this discussion. Would we
be talking about all this if someone came in asking for a radio
communication advice for his business? Would it be reasonable to offer
him to take a ham radio test? If not, then why is this reasonable in the
original example?

I agree that it's mostly irrelevant to him. I'm bitchin' at YOU for
telling him (and me) what we should and shouldn't do. And 'cause I like
a good troll.

mike


73 .... WA7AA

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
snip

Maybe... who cares? Maybe, just maybe, if we gave away amateur radio
licenses on street corners, some of the new licensees would do all that
stuff that you mention. That is beside the point. He's not looking to
become a ham radio operator - he's looking for a cellphone substitute.
Ham radio ain't it.


We DO give away amateur radio licenses on street corners.
When I was a kid, we had to walk 10 miles to school in the snow...
oops, wrong speech...
When I was a kid we had to actually take a test, do some math, read a
circuit diagram, know a tiny bit about the technology. Weren't no
multiple choice question pool with the answers given out for us to memorize.

Today, anybody with the attention span of a two year old can get
a...oooh shiny radio...
mike