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Marine VHF Radio for Truck
rickman wrote:
So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
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Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
wrote: Care to explain what is wrong with my all purpose answer to all those questions, i.e. if the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are legal? Now that is a real can of worms. In the US there is an overriding FEDERAL law that allows licensed ham radio operators to have scanning receivers as part of their transceivers in vehicles. Irrelevant; we weren't talking about amateurs or scanners. The question was about VHF marine radios. There are state and local laws prohibiting the presence of scanners and other receivers that are not licensed. Not everywhere, and not all the laws are the same. All those laws pertain to specific bands, e.g. radar detectors, public emergency frequencies, cell frequencies, etc. None of them apply to the VHF marine band. So the answer is both yes, having a scanner or marine radio in his truck would be legal, and no it is not. Depends upon exactly where he is. Geoff. Nope, as long as it is as the question as stated, i.e. VHF marine. Here's a site with details and links to the actual laws and regulations: http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/ -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal Station are listed at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47. It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not be eligible for such a license. I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be pushing for non-commercial use on this one. I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued. But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the pool from which the questions are taken. But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio (including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options. You can find more information at www.arrl.org. Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing? I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to contact your house or other shore location you need to use something else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine radio on shore... what? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other license requirements. And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable. That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships. Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage around Kent island should be OK. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 4:33 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal Station are listed at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47. It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not be eligible for such a license. I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be pushing for non-commercial use on this one. I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued. But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the pool from which the questions are taken. But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio (including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options. You can find more information at www.arrl.org. Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing? No, it won't. And FCC rules will not allow you to use marine band radios in the way you wish. I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to contact your house or other shore location you need to use something else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine radio on shore... what? Unfortunately for you, them's the rules (see my other post). -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 04:37:57 -0400, rickman wrote:
It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The National Marine Electronics Association document at http://www.nmea.org/content/newsm/printnews.asp?a=27 may provide dome insights. Additionally the FCC document at http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=ship_stations provides information about obtaining a marine utility station license in order to operate a hand-held marine radio from land. A hand-held radio may be well-suited for your needs. Much will depend upon what sort of antenna is used. |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Please understand that a "band" (such as VHF band) is a collective term for
a large range of frequencies. The FCC assigns different frequencies (or ranges of frequencies) to different services. The VHF "band" terminology is generally used for the 30 - 300 Mhz range. Within this range there are frequencies assigned for amateurs, police, fire, marine, TV, commercial FM, and so forth. In general, these assignments do not overlap. There are VHF frequencies assigned for amateur use (such as 144-148 Mhz). There are different "spot" frequencies or "channels" (as opposed to ranges) assigned for marine usage, and so forth. Marine users must have a "type approved" radio and it must be used on the assigned frequencies (channels). Amateurs, in the general case, do not require type-approved radios, but they must ensure that their radios operate in the assigned amateur frequency ranges. An amateur could, in the general case, operate a marine-type radio in an amateur frequency range but not vice versa. There is some informality about the terminology. The 144-148 Mhz amateur allocation is usually named the 2-meter band. It is a VHF band. The police/fire/etc frequencies in the 150-160 Mhz range are often collectively known as "VHF". There are VHF television channels (although these are going away in favor of UHF channels). In marine use you might hear "VHF" as opposed to "HF" (or "SSB"). HF is High Freuqency, generally considered to be anything in the 3 - 30 MHz range. Generally, VHF is for local (more or less line of sight) communication and HF is for much more distant communication. There are amateur frequency ranges in HF, such as the "80-meter band, 3.5-3.0 MHz, or the 20-meter band at 14-14.35 Mhz. There are a variety of marine assignments in the HF range. Using VHF is generally simple if you are in the right distance range. You simply press the button and talk. Using HF is considerably more complex due the way HF radio waves interact with the ionosphere. Amateur licenses and marine licenses are completely different animals and do not overlap in any way. Have you thought about CB? It is inexpensive and might cover the distance ranges you are talking about. One problem is that there are some very odd animals that play with CB and can occupy some of the 40 available channels. However, in less dense areas you can probably productively use one of the higher channel numbers. The CB "band" has 40 channels around 27 MHz. This is still "HF" but is almost "VHF". On most days, the communication is somehwat more than line of sight -- generally more than VHF--, but not large distances. However, when the "band" is "open" there can be international communication and considerable interference. Bill W2WO |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:
But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio (including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options. You can find more information at www.arrl.org. Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing? You're the one who started this by posting to an amateur radio newsgroup, and then made it worse by adding other newsgroups in the rec.radio.amateur.* hierarchy. YOu say you are having problems getting licensed for the Marine band, so people are offering information on other services that would be simply. Amateur radio isn't "simpler" but for some uses the fact that it is relatively wide open means it can be valuable. FRS and CB don't require any licensing, cellphones are common nowadays, GMRS and MURS have relatively simple license requirements. If you "need" to stick with the Marine Band, then you need to offer up reasons why. Michael |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:
It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. Michael |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article , "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable. This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF (and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as much need for radio as a yacht, and solid state has made it easy, a hand held so you don't need a permanent installation or high cost. Yes, other services probably would work here, they don't have restrictions agains use on the water. But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld, they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid. Michael |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article ple.org,
Michael Black writes: On Tue, 3 Sep 2013, Bill Gunshannon wrote: In article , "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable. And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is. kayakers may be able to use a radio, but I hardly expect that makes them a "ship". Even the navy has vehicles much larger than kayaks that are craft and not ships. This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF (and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as much need for radio Having kayaked, I don't seriously think so, but I'll let you have that one. as a yacht, and solid state has made it easy, a hand held so you don't need a permanent installation or high cost. Yes, other services probably would work here, they don't have restrictions agains use on the water. Like cellphones. But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld, they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid. Well, as far as I know it costs money to traverse a lock on a real waterway (like the St. Lawrence) so the kayaker is going to have to get out and talk to the lock guys cause I doubt he has an account like a shipping company would. Personally, I can't imagine sharing a lock with one of those big ships in something as small as a kayak and I doubt they let you have the lock to yourself. In any event what the original poster wants to do just isn't legal and all the grousing about why not isn't going to change that. Cellphones still look like the most practical to me. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include std.disclaimer.h |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article ple.org, Michael Black writes: I've looked at kayak magazines from time to time, and I've seen ads for Marine band walkie talkies in them, so I'd say it's suitable. And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is. Are you sure these are aircraft ELT's? There are personal ones also, made especially for hikers. They are perfectly legal. kayakers may be able to use a radio, but I hardly expect that makes them a "ship". Even the navy has vehicles much larger than kayaks that are craft and not ships. That doesn't mean they can't use marine radios. There are lots of people who have small fishing boats (i.e. 21') which (legally) have marine radios. I don't think those are considered "ships". This isn't the old days, when "marine band" meant 2 to 3MHz, a long antenna and expensive and bulky equipment. The addition of the VHF marine band was to make it more accessible. The commercial ships stayed at HF (and paid the money to make the transition to SSB), but a lot of pleasure boaters got radio as a result of the VHF marine band. Now it's even simpler, you apparently don't need a license. A kayaker might have as much need for radio Having kayaked, I don't seriously think so, but I'll let you have that one. I can see where a kayaker could have a need for a radio. The biggest problem I could see is keeping the radio dry. snip But, I was just near a lock a few weeks ago, and while I don't think the boats were using radio to contact the lock, I would assume the lock has marine band radio installed. So a kayaker coming along (and I've seen taht there) wouldn't have the ability to contact the lock if they had CB or GMRS or FRS or MURS, but if they had a cheap VHF Marine band handheld, they could, and the fact that they don't need a license anymore for use in the boat would seem to indicate this is completely valid. Well, as far as I know it costs money to traverse a lock on a real waterway (like the St. Lawrence) so the kayaker is going to have to get out and talk to the lock guys cause I doubt he has an account like a shipping company would. Personally, I can't imagine sharing a lock with one of those big ships in something as small as a kayak and I doubt they let you have the lock to yourself. It depends on the lock (and the waterway). Some do not charge for small craft, others do. In any event what the original poster wants to do just isn't legal and all the grousing about why not isn't going to change that. Cellphones still look like the most practical to me. bill If the cellphone service around Kent Island is solid, then I would agree with you. I know it is good along Route 50, but haven't ventured that far off of it. And I've definitely not gone around the island in a kayak or any other boat :) -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 5:31 AM, Jeff wrote:
Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. You cannot operate in the marine VHF band with a ham licence. (the talk about disaster situations just clouds the issue as anyone can legally use anything just about anything under those conditions regardless of a ham licence or not). The restriction on ship to shore use in the marine band was there originally to protect the revenue of the commercial coast stations. However, a licence is still required for a shore station of any type. You *might* be able to get a shore licence if you say that you are providing safety cover for the kayaks. CB or one of the other licence free allocations such as MURS or FRS mighty be your best bet, but of course you will not be able to talk to the Coastguard or other vessels. Thanks for your advice. I will look into this deeper. It just seems so strange to have a marine radio band that doesn't allow communications to shore other than a few specific commercial facilities. I guess that is why there is no one monitoring channel 16 here at lake Anna. There are only a small handful of marinas and they aren't located so as to cover the whole lake anyway. I don't think the police monitor marine VHF because they don't regularly patrol. But the next time I see one I will ask them about it. I'm relatively near the center of the lake and so not badly positioned to cover a large hunk of it if my antenna is high enough. I'd be willing to put up a reasonable tower for this.. and who knows, a ham antenna or two might just appear on it some day. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other license requirements. And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable. That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships. Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage around Kent island should be OK. Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a lot like VHF! Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..." Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you. The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways, just ship to shore communications when useful. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach? In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one. In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio in a boat? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 11:57 AM, Bill Ogden wrote:
Please understand that a "band" (such as VHF band) is a collective term for a large range of frequencies. The FCC assigns different frequencies (or ranges of frequencies) to different services. The VHF "band" terminology is generally used for the 30 - 300 Mhz range. Within this range there are frequencies assigned for amateurs, police, fire, marine, TV, commercial FM, and so forth. In general, these assignments do not overlap. There are VHF frequencies assigned for amateur use (such as 144-148 Mhz). There are different "spot" frequencies or "channels" (as opposed to ranges) assigned for marine usage, and so forth. Marine users must have a "type approved" radio and it must be used on the assigned frequencies (channels). Amateurs, in the general case, do not require type-approved radios, but they must ensure that their radios operate in the assigned amateur frequency ranges. An amateur could, in the general case, operate a marine-type radio in an amateur frequency range but not vice versa. There is some informality about the terminology. The 144-148 Mhz amateur allocation is usually named the 2-meter band. It is a VHF band. The police/fire/etc frequencies in the 150-160 Mhz range are often collectively known as "VHF". There are VHF television channels (although these are going away in favor of UHF channels). In marine use you might hear "VHF" as opposed to "HF" (or "SSB"). HF is High Freuqency, generally considered to be anything in the 3 - 30 MHz range. Generally, VHF is for local (more or less line of sight) communication and HF is for much more distant communication. There are amateur frequency ranges in HF, such as the "80-meter band, 3.5-3.0 MHz, or the 20-meter band at 14-14.35 Mhz. There are a variety of marine assignments in the HF range. Using VHF is generally simple if you are in the right distance range. You simply press the button and talk. Using HF is considerably more complex due the way HF radio waves interact with the ionosphere. Amateur licenses and marine licenses are completely different animals and do not overlap in any way. Have you thought about CB? It is inexpensive and might cover the distance ranges you are talking about. One problem is that there are some very odd animals that play with CB and can occupy some of the 40 available channels. However, in less dense areas you can probably productively use one of the higher channel numbers. The CB "band" has 40 channels around 27 MHz. This is still "HF" but is almost "VHF". On most days, the communication is somehwat more than line of sight -- generally more than VHF--, but not large distances. However, when the "band" is "open" there can be international communication and considerable interference. Bill W2WO Thanks for your response, I am learning a lot from this discussion. It is not realistic to expect the sea kayaking community to change from using VHF to CB to suit my needs. Marine VHF is what I need to use. I will likely pursue the shore license and see if I can get something for here at Lake Anna. I'm still not clear on whether I can get a shore license to put a radio in my truck. Also, the only official info I have seen on this refers to "hand held" radios. My goal is to use a mounted radio with an antenna which will get better range than a hand held. We'll see how it goes. Certainly I won't get this ironed out in time for this year, but maybe next. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 1:40 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio (including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options. You can find more information at www.arrl.org. Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing? You're the one who started this by posting to an amateur radio newsgroup, and then made it worse by adding other newsgroups in the rec.radio.amateur.* hierarchy. YOu say you are having problems getting licensed for the Marine band, so people are offering information on other services that would be simply. Amateur radio isn't "simpler" but for some uses the fact that it is relatively wide open means it can be valuable. FRS and CB don't require any licensing, cellphones are common nowadays, GMRS and MURS have relatively simple license requirements. If you "need" to stick with the Marine Band, then you need to offer up reasons why. Michael Your response comes across as a bit rude. I don't actually "need" to offer up justification for my need. But the point is that I don't have control over what the rest of the kayaking community uses. They are using marine VHF for a number of reasons and I am trying to work within that restriction. Actually if you go back and read the thread I started asking about equipment, not realizing I had a licensing problem. I was thinking of what I would need to make this work in my vehicle and in a home. I hope this thread doesn't offend you in any way. Since this is not strictly amateur radio I am asking about, would it be better to label it as off topic? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article , Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is. Are you sure these are aircraft ELT's? There are personal ones also, made especially for hikers. They are perfectly legal. Yeah, it's surprising if companies are trying to sell ELTs to hikers given that Spot units were designed especially for hikers and, as you say, are perfectly legal for them to use. I suppose there could be some ELT companies that don't want to cede the market to Spot and thus are continuing to try to sell to hikers, but it's unfortunate if magazines are letting those run ads for products knowing full well that they'll be used illegally. Patty |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other license requirements. And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable. That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships. Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage around Kent island should be OK. Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a lot like VHF! Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..." Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you. The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic. I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there, or what you hear on the radio. The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 7:08 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways, just ship to shore communications when useful. You need to look at the law, not listen to some armchair lawyer. We pointed you to the actual regulations. And if someone is caught using a marine radio on shore without a license, it is a $10K fine - and chances are you will NEVER get ANY kind of FCC license in the future. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach? You can reach people on shore. For instance, the Coast Guard regularly monitors the marine emergency channel, as do many other people. Not to say other ships. There are lots of people they can reach. And these *legal* stations have relatively high antennas - 4 miles is nothing to them. In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one. In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio in a boat? In a *real emergency*, then rules are out. But you need to learn what the term emergency means to the FCC. It does NOT mean "there's a storm brewing". It does, however, mean things like "My boat is sinking and we need immediate help". The radio in the boat is not meant to talk to *YOU* - it is to talk to *anyone* who can help - be it the Coast Guard, a marine, another ship or whatever. You keep arguing - but the law is the law. If you don't like it, petition the FCC to have the law changed. Constantly bitching here is not going to change anything - and will rapidly turn people off (like it has me). -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 7:49 PM, Patty Winter wrote:
In article , Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: And i can show oyu hiking magazines with ads for aircraft ELT beacons for hikers to carry in case they get lost. Don't confue reality with marketing or sales. Remember, for most of this stuff, selling it isn't illegal, using it for the advertised purpose is. Are you sure these are aircraft ELT's? There are personal ones also, made especially for hikers. They are perfectly legal. Yeah, it's surprising if companies are trying to sell ELTs to hikers given that Spot units were designed especially for hikers and, as you say, are perfectly legal for them to use. I suppose there could be some ELT companies that don't want to cede the market to Spot and thus are continuing to try to sell to hikers, but it's unfortunate if magazines are letting those run ads for products knowing full well that they'll be used illegally. Patty Spot is not the only ELT legal to use by hikers. Again - are you sure the advertised ELTs are aircraft? What makes you think they are? -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 9:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other license requirements. And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable. That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships. Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage around Kent island should be OK. Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a lot like VHF! Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..." Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you. The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic. I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there, or what you hear on the radio. The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point. What I want to do is *not* illegal if I get the appropriate license(s). I don't know why you are getting all huffy about it. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 9:30 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 7:08 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways, just ship to shore communications when useful. You need to look at the law, not listen to some armchair lawyer. We pointed you to the actual regulations. And if someone is caught using a marine radio on shore without a license, it is a $10K fine - and chances are you will NEVER get ANY kind of FCC license in the future. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach? You can reach people on shore. For instance, the Coast Guard regularly monitors the marine emergency channel, as do many other people. Not to say other ships. There are lots of people they can reach. And these *legal* stations have relatively high antennas - 4 miles is nothing to them. So how far is it to the nearest coast guard station at Lake Anna? In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one. In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio in a boat? In a *real emergency*, then rules are out. But you need to learn what the term emergency means to the FCC. It does NOT mean "there's a storm brewing". It does, however, mean things like "My boat is sinking and we need immediate help". The radio in the boat is not meant to talk to *YOU* - it is to talk to *anyone* who can help - be it the Coast Guard, a marine, another ship or whatever. I think we already covered the fact that neither the Coast Guard or anyone else is monitoring VHF at Lake Anna. Marine VHF is *not* solely for commercial uses and it is *not* solely for emergencies. As such it is much more limited by not allowing communications with shore stations other than the limited set currently allowed. You keep arguing - but the law is the law. If you don't like it, petition the FCC to have the law changed. Constantly bitching here is not going to change anything - and will rapidly turn people off (like it has me). I understand what I've been told about the law. I'm saying it seems to be a bit over strict. You seem to have a problem with the fact that I have an opinion. If you don't like my posts, why do you reply? I'm trying to find a legal way to do what I want. I still don't know that this is not allowed. I do now know that I will have to file for a license and possibly two. I appreciate the help and I regret that you consider my posts to be "bitching". I would suggest that you reread them with a different perspective. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 3:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In any event what the original poster wants to do just isn't legal and all the grousing about why not isn't going to change that. I don't think that has been established yet. I think there is an opportunity for a license for a shore station. What I'm not clear on is whether this has to be a fixed station or if it can be mobile. I know the FCC often has different regulations for the two. I have also seen a different license for shore use of a hand held unit (unless I am confusing the two). I don't think the issue is that it *is* illegal, but rather just how I would justify my use and exactly what the restrictions will be. Cellphones still look like the most practical to me. That is because you aren't familiar with the area and likely aren't familiar with most areas where people often kayak. Cell phones work well in cities and near major roads. Other places the coverage can be spotty or non-existent. Much of the Chesapeake bay has no cell coverage regardless of what the coverage maps say. I know this from experience... and my carrier is Verizon. Lake Anna is not much different, more people, but not a lot more. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 9:53 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote: On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other receiver in a vehicle. A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help. Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it. The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake. If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell phone, etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands. Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless you pass a tougher test. It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other license requirements. And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable. That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships. Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage around Kent island should be OK. Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a lot like VHF! Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..." Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you. The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic. I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there, or what you hear on the radio. The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point. What I want to do is *not* illegal if I get the appropriate license(s). I don't know why you are getting all huffy about it. That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 10:06 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:30 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 7:08 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways, just ship to shore communications when useful. You need to look at the law, not listen to some armchair lawyer. We pointed you to the actual regulations. And if someone is caught using a marine radio on shore without a license, it is a $10K fine - and chances are you will NEVER get ANY kind of FCC license in the future. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach? You can reach people on shore. For instance, the Coast Guard regularly monitors the marine emergency channel, as do many other people. Not to say other ships. There are lots of people they can reach. And these *legal* stations have relatively high antennas - 4 miles is nothing to them. So how far is it to the nearest coast guard station at Lake Anna? I don't know, and I don't care. It is immaterial. In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one. In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio in a boat? In a *real emergency*, then rules are out. But you need to learn what the term emergency means to the FCC. It does NOT mean "there's a storm brewing". It does, however, mean things like "My boat is sinking and we need immediate help". The radio in the boat is not meant to talk to *YOU* - it is to talk to *anyone* who can help - be it the Coast Guard, a marine, another ship or whatever. I think we already covered the fact that neither the Coast Guard or anyone else is monitoring VHF at Lake Anna. Marine VHF is *not* solely for commercial uses and it is *not* solely for emergencies. As such it is much more limited by not allowing communications with shore stations other than the limited set currently allowed. I didn't say it was solely for commercial uses or solely for emergencies. But it is not for talking to your pals in their boats when you're on the ground. You keep arguing - but the law is the law. If you don't like it, petition the FCC to have the law changed. Constantly bitching here is not going to change anything - and will rapidly turn people off (like it has me). I understand what I've been told about the law. I'm saying it seems to be a bit over strict. You seem to have a problem with the fact that I have an opinion. If you don't like my posts, why do you reply? I'm trying to find a legal way to do what I want. I still don't know that this is not allowed. I do now know that I will have to file for a license and possibly two. I appreciate the help and I regret that you consider my posts to be "bitching". I would suggest that you reread them with a different perspective. Then petition the FCC for a change in the law. You have gone beyond constructive; you are just repeating yourself now. It has become tiresome. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/5/2013 11:38 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 10:06 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 9:30 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/5/2013 7:08 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and ship to shore comms. The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed. Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band, with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that allocation. But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore, what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose. That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use. Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways, just ship to shore communications when useful. You need to look at the law, not listen to some armchair lawyer. We pointed you to the actual regulations. And if someone is caught using a marine radio on shore without a license, it is a $10K fine - and chances are you will NEVER get ANY kind of FCC license in the future. There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people who might wish to use it for other things. The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach? You can reach people on shore. For instance, the Coast Guard regularly monitors the marine emergency channel, as do many other people. Not to say other ships. There are lots of people they can reach. And these *legal* stations have relatively high antennas - 4 miles is nothing to them. So how far is it to the nearest coast guard station at Lake Anna? I don't know, and I don't care. It is immaterial. In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one. In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio in a boat? In a *real emergency*, then rules are out. But you need to learn what the term emergency means to the FCC. It does NOT mean "there's a storm brewing". It does, however, mean things like "My boat is sinking and we need immediate help". The radio in the boat is not meant to talk to *YOU* - it is to talk to *anyone* who can help - be it the Coast Guard, a marine, another ship or whatever. I think we already covered the fact that neither the Coast Guard or anyone else is monitoring VHF at Lake Anna. Marine VHF is *not* solely for commercial uses and it is *not* solely for emergencies. As such it is much more limited by not allowing communications with shore stations other than the limited set currently allowed. I didn't say it was solely for commercial uses or solely for emergencies. But it is not for talking to your pals in their boats when you're on the ground. You keep arguing - but the law is the law. If you don't like it, petition the FCC to have the law changed. Constantly bitching here is not going to change anything - and will rapidly turn people off (like it has me). I understand what I've been told about the law. I'm saying it seems to be a bit over strict. You seem to have a problem with the fact that I have an opinion. If you don't like my posts, why do you reply? I'm trying to find a legal way to do what I want. I still don't know that this is not allowed. I do now know that I will have to file for a license and possibly two. I appreciate the help and I regret that you consider my posts to be "bitching". I would suggest that you reread them with a different perspective. Then petition the FCC for a change in the law. You have gone beyond constructive; you are just repeating yourself now. It has become tiresome. Ok, then I guess you won't need to reply further. Thanks for the info you have provided. It has been useful. I will be looking into obtaining one of the licenses that have been discussed. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves. You've missed the point. Let's recap: 1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it. 2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine license. 3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your license, are both illegal. Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Steve in Richmond |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves. You've missed the point. Let's recap: 1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it. 2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine license. 3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your license, are both illegal. You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will let the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting your knickers in a knot about it? Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the appropriate license. If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend. :) Do you kayak or canoe? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote: On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves. You've missed the point. Let's recap: 1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it. 2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine license. 3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your license, are both illegal. You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will let the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting your knickers in a knot about it? Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions. As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can see where you might assume that I am. :) Let me attempt to explain some of the, ehem.. hostility? Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard. As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police. I don't play that game. But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have. Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky old fart" category. :) Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years or so! Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about. Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the appropriate license. No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of "radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations. You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but VHF itself is not a radio service. That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I can clarify further. If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend. :) Do you kayak or canoe? I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list of things to try! -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/6/2013 4:21 PM, Steve Crow wrote:
Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard. As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police. Steve, Please allow me to clarify. I (and others) have tried to help him by showing him the FCC regulations regarding the marine radio band, and offering alternatives. From the regulations, he does not fit into any of the categories regarding land stations on the marine band. He claims he provides "services" to boaters, but has never explained what those "services" are. All he's said is he wants to talk to his kayaking friends. Then he argues that he *should* be able to do it, for various reasons completely unrelated to the actual rules and regs. I guess my mistake here was to try and provide a rational explanation to him as to why the FCC has those rules. He doesn't care; he just thinks he should be able to chat with his friends who are out kayaking. Finally I just got fed up with it. I no longer care about trying to help him. I'll just wait for him to get a $10K fine from the FCC and come crying back here as to how unfair it is. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/6/2013 4:21 PM, Steve Crow wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/6/2013 3:37 PM, Steve Crow wrote: On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather reports to your pals. They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves. You've missed the point. Let's recap: 1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it. 2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine license. 3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your license, are both illegal. You are making assumptions. Why is this such a big deal to you? I will let the FCC decide if I can get a license. Why are some of you getting your knickers in a knot about it? Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions. As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can see where you might assume that I am. :) Let me attempt to explain some of the, ehem.. hostility? Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard. As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police. I don't play that game. But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have. Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response. Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky old fart" category. :) Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years or so! Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just quit responding to the other cranks. Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about. Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect. The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the "marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think they aren't. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the appropriate license. No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of "radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations. You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but VHF itself is not a radio service. That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I can clarify further. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I will say I understand the difference. I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the "marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing the amateur license discussion further. If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend. :) Do you kayak or canoe? I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list of things to try! You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and generous crowd. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 2:57 PM, David Platt wrote:
What follows is just my own subjective "take" on the issue... please don't treat it as gospel. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Broadly-speaking, you'll have a choice of antennas which do, or do not, require a good ground plane to operate (quarter-wave monopoles being an example of those which do, and end-fed half-wave antennas being an example of those which do not). A lot of boat-mount marine VHF antennas seem to be of the ground-independent type - they can be mounted up alongside the mast, or connected to a fiberglass hull, and will still work well. There's a lot to be said for buying a "designed for boat mounting" antenna even for shore or vehicle mounting... such antennas will probably be made to withstand salt-spray corrosion, and will live longer than an "inland" antenna. This is very useful info, thanks. I had not seen any antennas that require a ground plane, but I had only spent one evening looking at equipment. I think I had seen 8 foot antennas described as 5/8 wavelength IIRC, and other antennas which were shorter. None said anything about a ground plane and I didn't see anything on the antenna other than the vertical pole. For mounting such on a vehicle... plan to mount it up above the roofline rather than down at the bumper. For hatchbacks, a trunk-lip mount can work quite well. Mounting to a roof rack is also a possibility. Depending on the antenna height and vehicle type, it's also possible to drill a hole in the roof or side, and install a mount through the hole (maybe not the best idea if you plan to sell the vehicle anytime soon). If you use a ground-dependent antenna, the mount will need to be connected directly to the chassis sheet-metal. I aw aware that height is important. I was thinking of mounting on the back of the cab, beside the window, just below the roofline. I might also rig up some sort of pole which can be raised and lowered to get more height. In the use I am thinking of the vehicle would be stationary for an hour or two and then moved to track the kayaks. course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? Long-term ruggedness and reliability is an important factor in marine radios, and it's probably one that you're going to find in the specs. Reading on-line and magazine reviews, and talking to dealers (and users) about problems, and the return rate, is probably a good idea. I assume you meant "*not* going to find in the specs". Since I am blown out of the water for this season, I will have time to do the research. Standard Horizon, and Icom, seem to be two of the big-name players in the "commercial grade" marine radio business. Those seem to be the big names in hand held units from what I have heard. As to specs... one thing to look for is receiver selectivity. In a "crowded" RF environment (such as the Chesapeake bay and its shores) there's going to be a very great deal of transmission going on around you, including full-power (25-watt) transmissions from shore stations and boats. A strong signal on one channel can saturate a radio's receiver, and block out weaker signals on other channels ("desensitization"). The better the strong-signal handling (dynamic range) and adjacent-channel selectivity a radio has, the better it will be able to receive distant signals in the face of a strong local transmission. Yes, I am familiar with selectivity and sensitivity. Some of the higher-end marine mobile radios have a "dual operating position" feature. You can connect a second microphone (often with its own built-in controls and display) located well away from the main radio, and operate the radio from the second location. This can be a useful feature both on boats (e.g. put the second station up on a conning tower) and in shore installations. Yes, that can be useful, but pricey. I saw radios for $120 and I saw wired remote controls for over $200. Go figure! Do they have any wireless remotes? That would allow me to mount a receiver in the vehicle and park it on a hill where it gets better reception while I can be on the beach. I haven't seen any marine mobile radios which have detachable faceplates (i.e. intended for remote mounting). For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? Sensitivity, and selectivity are what you're looking for. The sensitivity number will tend to dominate the performance under true weak-signal conditions - that is, when there are no strong transmissions on other channels in your neighborhood. The selectivity number becomes important when there are other radios transmitting nearby. Yes, I used to be more into radios and had forgotten those terms. What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? Depends on the radio. Some radios have good internal speakers... although I suspect this is not terribly easy to achieve if the radio has to be water-resistant... and some are just terrible. The more compact the radio, the worse its internal speaker is likely to sound (I think). All the radios I have seen *are* water proof. Not much point to having a radio in a boat if it isn't. Your boat turns over and your radio gets wet... not much good to you then. I'd be surprised if most mobile-type marine radios can't hook up to external speakers, so you can always add one on if the built-in speaker is not adequate for your needs. Bi-amping and subwoofers are optional :-) You laugh... Other issues: - Do make sure you buy a radio which has been fully certificated for operation under FCC Part 80 regulations. Buying radios intended for other services (land mobile, amateur, etc.) and reprogramming them for the maritime channels is *not* a good idea... it's legal to do so, but *not* legal to transmit with such radios. Big fines are possible if you're caught. Everything I've seen so far was 100% marine VHF. - On the (somewhat noisy) issue of licensing... as I understand it, you will not need any license at all if all you are going to do is "monitor" (receive only)... at least, that's true around the Chesapeake, which is entirely US territory and subject to US regulations. The moment you transmit, though, the rules are different. Since you're talking about a shore/vehicle station, you'd have to have a "private coast" or "marine utility" station license, and these are only available to a limited category of people: see 47 CFR 80.501(a) for a list of qualifying categories. Possibly (a)(8) would apply in your situation: "a person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels"? Yes, that is what I came up with from another post. But I think that limits you to the use of a hand held unit, which seems very bizarre. I'm sure there are reasons for the FCC regs, they just aren't sharing what they are. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: -- snip -- Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions. As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can see where you might assume that I am. :) Let me attempt to explain some of the, ehem.. hostility? Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard. As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police. I don't play that game. But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have. Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response. You're quite welcome. Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky old fart" category. :) Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years or so! Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just quit responding to the other cranks. Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about. Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect. The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the "marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think they aren't. I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your operating practice on the actions of others. In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the people on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within the radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf, particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in GMRS, and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters) using amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely going on in the VHF Marine band, too. Just be careful out there. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the appropriate license. No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of "radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations. You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but VHF itself is not a radio service. That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I can clarify further. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I will say I understand the difference. Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common misunderstanding. I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the "marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing the amateur license discussion further. Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the amateur radio newsgroup. :) On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one such instance. While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs. (I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?) If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend. :) Do you kayak or canoe? I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list of things to try! You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and generous crowd. I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass, watching infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound appealing! |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:
On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one such instance. While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs. (I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?) Two things: 1. What do you expect from an Amateur Radio related newsgroup? 2. Amateur radio is a perfect solution for him, except he's placing additional, unnecessary constraints. He has multiple bands he can use, can run much more power, and no restrictions on base or mobile usage. The only restrictions are he can only talk to other licensed hams, and cannot use it for business. I don't see the latter as a problem, from what he's said. But then you obviously don't know anything about ham radio, yet you are giving your opinion on it. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote: -- snip -- Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions. As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can see where you might assume that I am. :) Let me attempt to explain some of the, ehem.. hostility? Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses and the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations, because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard. As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a genuine concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and see it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police. I don't play that game. But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have. Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response. You're quite welcome. Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the "cranky old fart" category. :) Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years or so! Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just quit responding to the other cranks. Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law. Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about. Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already using VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect. The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the "marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think they aren't. I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your operating practice on the actions of others. In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the people on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within the radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf, particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in GMRS, and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters) using amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely going on in the VHF Marine band, too. Just be careful out there. Yes, that is the current state of marine VHF. For certain users in boats there is *no* licensing requirement. So unlicensed use is rampant in marine VHF, but it isn't illegal. Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal. There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will grant you the type of interoperability you desire. You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is justify the appropriate license. No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of "radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations. You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but VHF itself is not a radio service. That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I can clarify further. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I will say I understand the difference. Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common misunderstanding. I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the "marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing the amateur license discussion further. Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the amateur radio newsgroup. :) On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one such instance. While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs. (I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?) If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC. 1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of license to get. Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there! Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this weekend. :) Do you kayak or canoe? I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list of things to try! You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and generous crowd. I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass, watching infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound appealing! Kayaking is awesome! I have a place on the water and I would take the canoe out from time to time. But if there is any wind a canoe just gets blown away. Then I got a kayak and the difference is amazing. In a canoe you are a foot or so off the water, in a kayak your rear is actually below the water line and you feel so much more a part of it. The widening profile is not just mythical and not without consequence. If you think you might enjoy the water, I strongly encourage you to get out there and do something. Not only is it fantastic exercise, it is a very social activity and the people are *great*. Don't just sit there... Oh, did I mention there are lots of women who kayak? Often more women than men show up at paddles... can you say that about ham fests? Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules. Maybe they can take a lesson from you... :) -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/7/2013 7:43 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote: On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one such instance. While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs. (I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?) Two things: 1. What do you expect from an Amateur Radio related newsgroup? 2. Amateur radio is a perfect solution for him, except he's placing additional, unnecessary constraints. He has multiple bands he can use, can run much more power, and no restrictions on base or mobile usage. The only restrictions are he can only talk to other licensed hams, and cannot use it for business. I don't see the latter as a problem, from what he's said. But then you obviously don't know anything about ham radio, yet you are giving your opinion on it. Why do you continue to argue about this? I have explained repeatedly that I won't be able to get anyone else to use ham gear. So I would not be able to talk to anyone I wish to talk to. Is this one of those groups where a small number of people dominate all the conversations? -- Rick |
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