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Marine VHF Radio for Truck
I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be
using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and all the controls in a hand held mic. Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units. I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Words of advice? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/1/2013 6:38 PM, rickman wrote:
I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and all the controls in a hand held mic. Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units. I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Words of advice? The first question would be - what country are you in? The next question woulds be - what licenses do you hold? (Very little is available without a license). I am assuming since you are asking these questions you don't hold an amateur radio license. The third question would be - what radios/bands are legal for that license? Without even knowing what country you are in, the rest of the questions are meaningless. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/1/2013 6:38 PM, rickman wrote: I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and all the controls in a hand held mic. Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units. I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Words of advice? The first question would be - what country are you in? From the wording of the post, most likely the US. The use of $100 and $500 is a big clue, though he could be in Canada, Autralia, New New Zealand, or Trinidad. I would highly doubt it is any of the Asian countries that have the dollar as the national currency. The next question woulds be - what licenses do you hold? (Very little is available without a license). I am assuming since you are asking these questions you don't hold an amateur radio license. If it is the US, no licence is required for VHF marine radio for any vessel that is NOT required to carry radio equipment and traveling in US waters. If it is Canada, essentially the same applies. The third question would be - what radios/bands are legal for that license? VHF marine radios are legal for the VHF marine radio band without regard for country. Without even knowing what country you are in, the rest of the questions are meaningless. Anyway... Like everything else these days, the Internet is full of reviews of VHF marine radios. Google is your friend. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/1/2013 9:22 PM, wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/1/2013 6:38 PM, rickman wrote: I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and all the controls in a hand held mic. Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units. I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Words of advice? The first question would be - what country are you in? From the wording of the post, most likely the US. The use of $100 and $500 is a big clue, though he could be in Canada, Autralia, New New Zealand, or Trinidad. I would highly doubt it is any of the Asian countries that have the dollar as the national currency. Yes, but those make a difference. And BTW, last time I was in Hong Kong, they also used $. It has been close to 20 years, though. $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. And I wouldn't want to get the op in trouble by providing information incorrect to the country he is in. The next question woulds be - what licenses do you hold? (Very little is available without a license). I am assuming since you are asking these questions you don't hold an amateur radio license. If it is the US, no licence is required for VHF marine radio for any vessel that is NOT required to carry radio equipment and traveling in US waters. Are you sure about that? I do remember Dad had to get a radio license for his boat, even though he was operating in U.S. waters off the Gulf coast of Florida. That was a few years ago, though. And the license was free. And at one time CB and private aircraft had to have a license; none do anymore. Air and marine radars also used to require a license; not anymore. However, he also was talking about SHORE monitoring - which definitely requires a license, even for marine band. Nope, there is a VHF marine channel specifically for chit chat from ship to shore. If it is Canada, essentially the same applies. The third question would be - what radios/bands are legal for that license? VHF marine radios are legal for the VHF marine radio band without regard for country. Not entirely true. Depending on the country. Some still require licenses, for various reasons. That wasn't the issue. The VHF marine band seems to be essentially the same with some differences in channel assignment world wide. Without even knowing what country you are in, the rest of the questions are meaningless. Anyway... Like everything else these days, the Internet is full of reviews of VHF marine radios. Google is your friend. And many of those are illegal to operate in some countries, even though they aren't marked as such. Since he is asking here, I would expect he wants to ensure he is legal. I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... Oh, perhaps you meant buying a radio from the Internet; no I wouldn't reccomend that unless the dealer was in my country if for no other reason than to make sure the channels were set up for the idiosyncrasies of my country. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article , rickman
wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) Fred K4DII |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
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Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 12:01 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/1/2013 9:22 PM, wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/1/2013 6:38 PM, rickman wrote: I am going to be providing shore monitoring for a kayak trip and will be using a VHF radio from my pickup. I am thinking of installing a unit rather than using a handheld. I took a look at what there is available and it seems like the prices start at just over $100 for the unit itself running up to $500 for a fancy unit that is mounted somewhere hidden and all the controls in a hand held mic. Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank. I don't want to pay $500, but I will pay $200 or more if there is a useful difference with the ~$100 units. I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Words of advice? The first question would be - what country are you in? From the wording of the post, most likely the US. The use of $100 and $500 is a big clue, though he could be in Canada, Autralia, New New Zealand, or Trinidad. I would highly doubt it is any of the Asian countries that have the dollar as the national currency. Yes, but those make a difference. And BTW, last time I was in Hong Kong, they also used $. It has been close to 20 years, though. $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. There are amateur radios available for $500 HK. That is not out of the question. And I don't know what other countries use the dollar, but I'm sure there are. And I wouldn't want to get the op in trouble by providing information incorrect to the country he is in. The next question woulds be - what licenses do you hold? (Very little is available without a license). I am assuming since you are asking these questions you don't hold an amateur radio license. If it is the US, no licence is required for VHF marine radio for any vessel that is NOT required to carry radio equipment and traveling in US waters. Are you sure about that? I do remember Dad had to get a radio license for his boat, even though he was operating in U.S. waters off the Gulf coast of Florida. That was a few years ago, though. And the license was free. And at one time CB and private aircraft had to have a license; none do anymore. Air and marine radars also used to require a license; not anymore. That could be for boats. I don't know, because I haven't checked. However, he also was talking about SHORE monitoring - which definitely requires a license, even for marine band. Nope, there is a VHF marine channel specifically for chit chat from ship to shore. Which does not mean short stations do not have to be licensed. They still do. If it is Canada, essentially the same applies. The third question would be - what radios/bands are legal for that license? VHF marine radios are legal for the VHF marine radio band without regard for country. Not entirely true. Depending on the country. Some still require licenses, for various reasons. That wasn't the issue. It is exactly the issue. You can't say whether a license is required or not until you know what country the OP is in. The VHF marine band seems to be essentially the same with some differences in channel assignment world wide. That does not mean the licensing requirements are the same. Without even knowing what country you are in, the rest of the questions are meaningless. Anyway... Like everything else these days, the Internet is full of reviews of VHF marine radios. Google is your friend. And many of those are illegal to operate in some countries, even though they aren't marked as such. Since he is asking here, I would expect he wants to ensure he is legal. I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... But you don't know. As I said before, in the U.S., marine stations still need to be licensed when on land (the same is true of aircraft radios, BTW). Oh, perhaps you meant buying a radio from the Internet; no I wouldn't reccomend that unless the dealer was in my country if for no other reason than to make sure the channels were set up for the idiosyncrasies of my country. It doesn't matter where you buy the radio. There are shady brick and mortar dealers also who try to make a buck by buying cheap overseas crap and reselling it at a higher markup. And just because the radio is legal in your country for some uses does NOT mean it is legal in your country for ALL uses. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/2/2013 12:01 AM, wrote: snip $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. There are amateur radios available for $500 HK. That is not out of the question. $500 is 5 times $100, which is the amount in question. And I don't know what other countries use the dollar, but I'm sure there are. I already told you what they are. snip Which does not mean short stations do not have to be licensed. They still do. Yes, but the original question was about monitoring, and no license is required for that. snip It is exactly the issue. You can't say whether a license is required or not until you know what country the OP is in. How much are you willing to bet he is in neither the USA or Canada, both of which have essentially the same rules. Also, he said he wanted to monitor on land. snip That does not mean the licensing requirements are the same. They are for the USA and Canada. snip I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... But you don't know. As I said before, in the U.S., marine stations still need to be licensed when on land (the same is true of aircraft radios, BTW). Which has nothing to do with what I said; read it again. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
wrote: I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... Another speed reader... What I said was "I don't think *reviews* are illegal. The US has specific rules and regulations about land use of marine frequencies. It would be best to find them out, there is a rumor floating around the internet about an FCC officer happening to be at return end of a boat rental stopping people and issuing NALs for people using non approved or unlicensed radios for FRS GMRS and marine services. Basically, you are licensed by use of a VHF marine radio ON A BOAT, but having or using that radio in a car or building, or using it on land, for example in a boat in your backyard is restricted. He said he wanted to monitor on land. Monitoring on land is not restricted. There also is a story floating around the internet of a logging company using marine radios on their boats and trucks being fined by the FCC. Which is an obvious violation. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 12:59 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/2/2013 12:01 AM, wrote: snip $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. There are amateur radios available for $500 HK. That is not out of the question. $500 is 5 times $100, which is the amount in question. Yup. Glad to see you can do multiplication. Shall we try division now? And I don't know what other countries use the dollar, but I'm sure there are. I already told you what they are. That's all of them? I know you didn't mention Hong Kong in your earlier post. snip Which does not mean short stations do not have to be licensed. They still do. Yes, but the original question was about monitoring, and no license is required for that. No, but then you don't need a transceiver on land, either. A simple scanner will suffice. However, he specifically is asking about installing a radio. To me this means he wants to monitor the *trip*, not the frequency - and to do so is interested in talking to those in the kayaks. Why else would he be asking about installing a radio, instead of just a receiver? snip It is exactly the issue. You can't say whether a license is required or not until you know what country the OP is in. How much are you willing to bet he is in neither the USA or Canada, both of which have essentially the same rules. I'm not willing to bet anything, because I don't make assumptions one way or the other. And I don't give advice based on facts I don't know. Also, he said he wanted to monitor on land. Again - he said he wanted to monitor the trip - not the frequency. And he specifically asked about installing a radio - instead of a handheld. To me this means he also wants to talk. snip That does not mean the licensing requirements are the same. They are for the USA and Canada. No where did he say where he was from. You are making an unwarranted assumption. snip I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... But you don't know. As I said before, in the U.S., marine stations still need to be licensed when on land (the same is true of aircraft radios, BTW). Which has nothing to do with what I said; read it again. No, it doesn't have anything to do with what YOU said. But it has EVERYTHING to do with what the OP said. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/2/2013 12:59 PM, wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/2/2013 12:01 AM, wrote: snip $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. There are amateur radios available for $500 HK. That is not out of the question. $500 is 5 times $100, which is the amount in question. Yup. Glad to see you can do multiplication. Shall we try division now? Shall we try to pay attention to what was written, i.e. radios for $100? And I don't know what other countries use the dollar, but I'm sure there are. I already told you what they are. That's all of them? I know you didn't mention Hong Kong in your earlier post. I didn't mention all of them because the exchange rate make a $100 radio a ludicrous idea. snip Which does not mean short stations do not have to be licensed. They still do. Yes, but the original question was about monitoring, and no license is required for that. No, but then you don't need a transceiver on land, either. A simple scanner will suffice. Likely, but he also specifically said he might want to use it on his boat. However, he specifically is asking about installing a radio. To me this means he wants to monitor the *trip*, not the frequency - and to do so is interested in talking to those in the kayaks. Why else would he be asking about installing a radio, instead of just a receiver? Because: 1. A scanner may have never occured to him. 2. He also might use it on his boat as he said. snip It is exactly the issue. You can't say whether a license is required or not until you know what country the OP is in. How much are you willing to bet he is in neither the USA or Canada, both of which have essentially the same rules. I'm not willing to bet anything, because I don't make assumptions one way or the other. And I don't give advice based on facts I don't know. Ever heard the saying "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."? Everything he wrote points to being from the US with a slight chance of Canada. Also, your "advice" had nothing to do with the questions asked and instead immediately took the position of net cop to make *sure* everything he did was legal in your eyes. Also, he said he wanted to monitor on land. Again - he said he wanted to monitor the trip - not the frequency. And he specifically asked about installing a radio - instead of a handheld. To me this means he also wants to talk. He actually said he wanted to monitor several things. snip That does not mean the licensing requirements are the same. They are for the USA and Canada. No where did he say where he was from. You are making an unwarranted assumption. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. Also where he is is irrelevant to the questions he actually asked. snip I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... But you don't know. As I said before, in the U.S., marine stations still need to be licensed when on land (the same is true of aircraft radios, BTW). Which has nothing to do with what I said; read it again. No, it doesn't have anything to do with what YOU said. But it has EVERYTHING to do with what the OP said. Nope, I said the Internet is full of *reviews*. You immediately went off on legalities. Two differnent subjects. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 3:55 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/2/2013 12:59 PM, wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/2/2013 12:01 AM, wrote: snip $100 Hong Kong is $12.89 US; I doubt you will find many VHF marine radios $12.89 US. There are amateur radios available for $500 HK. That is not out of the question. $500 is 5 times $100, which is the amount in question. Yup. Glad to see you can do multiplication. Shall we try division now? Shall we try to pay attention to what was written, i.e. radios for $100? Exactly. And there are some awfully cheap radios coming from China nowadays. Like this one: http://www.radioddity.com/us/baofeng...ham-radio.html Easily within the $100-500 HK. And I don't know what other countries use the dollar, but I'm sure there are. I already told you what they are. That's all of them? I know you didn't mention Hong Kong in your earlier post. I didn't mention all of them because the exchange rate make a $100 radio a ludicrous idea. Like the one I mentioned above? And are ALL Asian exchange rates the same? I don't think so. snip Which does not mean short stations do not have to be licensed. They still do. Yes, but the original question was about monitoring, and no license is required for that. No, but then you don't need a transceiver on land, either. A simple scanner will suffice. Likely, but he also specifically said he might want to use it on his boat. Which would indicate a transceiver. However, he specifically is asking about installing a radio. To me this means he wants to monitor the *trip*, not the frequency - and to do so is interested in talking to those in the kayaks. Why else would he be asking about installing a radio, instead of just a receiver? Because: 1. A scanner may have never occured to him. 2. He also might use it on his boat as he said. In which case he would need a license to use it in his truck in many (most?) countries. snip It is exactly the issue. You can't say whether a license is required or not until you know what country the OP is in. How much are you willing to bet he is in neither the USA or Canada, both of which have essentially the same rules. I'm not willing to bet anything, because I don't make assumptions one way or the other. And I don't give advice based on facts I don't know. Ever heard the saying "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."? Everything he wrote points to being from the US with a slight chance of Canada. To use your language: Quack, Quack. Nothing he wrote pointed to any country. Also, your "advice" had nothing to do with the questions asked and instead immediately took the position of net cop to make *sure* everything he did was legal in your eyes. No, I am making sure the advice I give is legal in HIS jurisdiction. Obviously you don't care - you are more interested in arguing. Also, he said he wanted to monitor on land. Again - he said he wanted to monitor the trip - not the frequency. And he specifically asked about installing a radio - instead of a handheld. To me this means he also wants to talk. He actually said he wanted to monitor several things. Sure. And he specifically mentioned he wanted a radio instead of a handheld, and wanted to use it in his boat as well as his truck. Everything points to him asking for a transceiver. snip That does not mean the licensing requirements are the same. They are for the USA and Canada. No where did he say where he was from. You are making an unwarranted assumption. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. Quack, quack. Also where he is is irrelevant to the questions he actually asked. Where he is is COMPLETELY relevant to the question he asked. But you are more interested in proving your point than giving him correct answers. snip I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... But you don't know. As I said before, in the U.S., marine stations still need to be licensed when on land (the same is true of aircraft radios, BTW). Which has nothing to do with what I said; read it again. No, it doesn't have anything to do with what YOU said. But it has EVERYTHING to do with what the OP said. Nope, I said the Internet is full of *reviews*. You immediately went off on legalities. Two differnent subjects. Obviously you can't read what I said. Once again - I wasn't talking about what YOU said (I really couldn't care less). I was replying to what the OP said. But you are really hooked on you being right, aren't you? Me, I'd rather give the OP answers which are legal where HE is. Which once again, we don't know because he hasn't said. Just because YOU are in the United States (or Canada) does NOT mean the rest of the world is. This is a typical US-centric attitude I have seen over and over again. There are other countries, you know. And some of them even use radios. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip Obviously you can't read what I said. Once again - I wasn't talking about what YOU said (I really couldn't care less). I was replying to what the OP said. But you are really hooked on you being right, aren't you? Me, I'd rather give the OP answers which are legal where HE is. Which once again, we don't know because he hasn't said. Just because YOU are in the United States (or Canada) does NOT mean the rest of the world is. This is a typical US-centric attitude I have seen over and over again. There are other countries, you know. And some of them even use radios. Here is the orginal question: "Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank." FYI a feature is something like how many memories, are the backlights dimmable, or does it have a built in AC power supply. Nothing in that question has any relevance to what country the asker is in. You ignored the only question he had and went off on a net cop tangent about legalities and needing to know what country he is in. To be complete in that line of thinking you also need to know of which country he is a citizen as any good net cop should know most countries do not issue radio licenses to foreigner. As for me, I just like having fun poking at net cops that get their panties in a wad and go of on irrelevant tangets when someone asks a rather simple question. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote: snip Obviously you can't read what I said. Once again - I wasn't talking about what YOU said (I really couldn't care less). I was replying to what the OP said. But you are really hooked on you being right, aren't you? Me, I'd rather give the OP answers which are legal where HE is. Which once again, we don't know because he hasn't said. Just because YOU are in the United States (or Canada) does NOT mean the rest of the world is. This is a typical US-centric attitude I have seen over and over again. There are other countries, you know. And some of them even use radios. Here is the orginal question: "Other than the obvious features like the remote mic unit, what should I look for in getting a quality unit that will work the best without breaking the bank." FYI a feature is something like how many memories, are the backlights dimmable, or does it have a built in AC power supply. Nothing in that question has any relevance to what country the asker is in. You ignored the only question he had and went off on a net cop tangent about legalities and needing to know what country he is in. To be complete in that line of thinking you also need to know of which country he is a citizen as any good net cop should know most countries do not issue radio licenses to foreigner. You obviously don't understand what the term "net cop" means. Or you wouldn't be one. As for me, I just like having fun poking at net cops that get their panties in a wad and go of on irrelevant tangets when someone asks a rather simple question. So you admit you're a troll as well as a net cop? It figures. plonk -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
snip You obviously don't understand what the term "net cop" means. Or you wouldn't be one. I guess to be accurate I would have to describe your actions as part net cop, part barracks lawyer. In any case, you are a pompous ass that insists that questions be asked in your approved manner and answers questions that were never asked. -- Jim Pennino |
You can monitor anything - that does not require a license to do.
However, there is a range restriction when operating on land. So many feet away from the water. Your groups needs would be better served with a bunch of bubble pack GMRS radios - the amount of power has very little to do with the range. Range is dependent on a clear line of sight and the height of the antenna's and the loss in the feed lines. |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 4:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
wrote: I don't think reviews are illegal to operate in any country, though maybe North Korea... The US has specific rules and regulations about land use of marine frequencies. It would be best to find them out, there is a rumor floating around the internet about an FCC officer happening to be at return end of a boat rental stopping people and issuing NALs for people using non approved or unlicensed radios for FRS GMRS and marine services. Basically, you are licensed by use of a VHF marine radio ON A BOAT, but having or using that radio in a car or building, or using it on land, for example in a boat in your backyard is restricted. There also is a story floating around the internet of a logging company using marine radios on their boats and trucks being fined by the FCC. Best to check it out from someone who knows the right answer before you spend any money or get in trouble. I have to say I didn't expect quite so much drama in what I thought was a simple request. I don't mean you specifically, but the thread as a whole. Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Shore operation is ok as long as one end is a ship. My specific purpose is to support a kayak trip in a couple of weeks. We have had some bad weather before and found it difficult to communicate with the kayaks depending on their location because of the limited power of the hand held units. I'd like to improve on this by using a higher power transmitter and a better antenna. This will likely be used for monitoring the emergency channel at a lake house when not used to support kayaks. I thought I explained this in my original post other than the country. Oh, and I don't have a license. BTW, I didn't find much in the way of reviews. Mostly I find ads. Is there a good review site for marine VHF? For kayaks that would be paddling.com I also would appreciate any advice on mounting in the pickup. I'm thinking on the back of the cab but I'm not sure how the cable would then run. It might poke out behind a passenger's head... -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
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Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
rickman wrote:
Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The issue is how you use them, no? No. It is NOT OK. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include std.disclaimer.h |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 1:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article , "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. bill Bill, I'm not sure about that - it would depend on the FCC's definition of "ship". Nothing I've seen indicates it has to be a big boat on a navigable waterway; for instance a 20' fishing boat on a large inland lake might be considered a "ship". I agree GMRS is one way to go - but the limited range of such equipment is what he's trying to solve. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:03 PM, wrote: Geoffrey S. wrote: He said he wanted to monitor on land. Monitoring on land is not restricted. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "monitor". I do expect to communicate with the kayaks. There also is a story floating around the internet of a logging company using marine radios on their boats and trucks being fined by the FCC. Which is an obvious violation. Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The issue is how you use them, no? It depends. Each truck has to have a license to transmit, but boats do not. If the trucks are just monitoring and never transmit, they do not need a license. Even if the trucks have licenses, the VHF marine band is restricted to communications related to marine "stuff". Do something like scheduling trucks would be a business use and would not be appropriate for the marine band. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote: Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The issue is how you use them, no? No. It is NOT OK. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Geoff. Note that the question asked was "Just having them". If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are legal. -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
What follows is just my own subjective "take" on the issue... please
don't treat it as gospel. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Broadly-speaking, you'll have a choice of antennas which do, or do not, require a good ground plane to operate (quarter-wave monopoles being an example of those which do, and end-fed half-wave antennas being an example of those which do not). A lot of boat-mount marine VHF antennas seem to be of the ground-independent type - they can be mounted up alongside the mast, or connected to a fiberglass hull, and will still work well. There's a lot to be said for buying a "designed for boat mounting" antenna even for shore or vehicle mounting... such antennas will probably be made to withstand salt-spray corrosion, and will live longer than an "inland" antenna. For mounting such on a vehicle... plan to mount it up above the roofline rather than down at the bumper. For hatchbacks, a trunk-lip mount can work quite well. Mounting to a roof rack is also a possibility. Depending on the antenna height and vehicle type, it's also possible to drill a hole in the roof or side, and install a mount through the hole (maybe not the best idea if you plan to sell the vehicle anytime soon). If you use a ground-dependent antenna, the mount will need to be connected directly to the chassis sheet-metal. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? Long-term ruggedness and reliability is an important factor in marine radios, and it's probably one that you're going to find in the specs. Reading on-line and magazine reviews, and talking to dealers (and users) about problems, and the return rate, is probably a good idea. Standard Horizon, and Icom, seem to be two of the big-name players in the "commercial grade" marine radio business. As to specs... one thing to look for is receiver selectivity. In a "crowded" RF environment (such as the Chesapeake bay and its shores) there's going to be a very great deal of transmission going on around you, including full-power (25-watt) transmissions from shore stations and boats. A strong signal on one channel can saturate a radio's receiver, and block out weaker signals on other channels ("desensitization"). The better the strong-signal handling (dynamic range) and adjacent-channel selectivity a radio has, the better it will be able to receive distant signals in the face of a strong local transmission. Some of the higher-end marine mobile radios have a "dual operating position" feature. You can connect a second microphone (often with its own built-in controls and display) located well away from the main radio, and operate the radio from the second location. This can be a useful feature both on boats (e.g. put the second station up on a conning tower) and in shore installations. I haven't seen any marine mobile radios which have detachable faceplates (i.e. intended for remote mounting). For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? Sensitivity, and selectivity are what you're looking for. The sensitivity number will tend to dominate the performance under true weak-signal conditions - that is, when there are no strong transmissions on other channels in your neighborhood. The selectivity number becomes important when there are other radios transmitting nearby. What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? Depends on the radio. Some radios have good internal speakers... although I suspect this is not terribly easy to achieve if the radio has to be water-resistant... and some are just terrible. The more compact the radio, the worse its internal speaker is likely to sound (I think). I'd be surprised if most mobile-type marine radios can't hook up to external speakers, so you can always add one on if the built-in speaker is not adequate for your needs. Bi-amping and subwoofers are optional :-) Other issues: - Do make sure you buy a radio which has been fully certificated for operation under FCC Part 80 regulations. Buying radios intended for other services (land mobile, amateur, etc.) and reprogramming them for the maritime channels is *not* a good idea... it's legal to do so, but *not* legal to transmit with such radios. Big fines are possible if you're caught. - On the (somewhat noisy) issue of licensing... as I understand it, you will not need any license at all if all you are going to do is "monitor" (receive only)... at least, that's true around the Chesapeake, which is entirely US territory and subject to US regulations. The moment you transmit, though, the rules are different. Since you're talking about a shore/vehicle station, you'd have to have a "private coast" or "marine utility" station license, and these are only available to a limited category of people: see 47 CFR 80.501(a) for a list of qualifying categories. Possibly (a)(8) would apply in your situation: "a person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels"? |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal Station are listed at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47. It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not be eligible for such a license. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 2:10 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 1:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: In article , "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. bill Bill, I'm not sure about that - it would depend on the FCC's definition of "ship". Nothing I've seen indicates it has to be a big boat on a navigable waterway; for instance a 20' fishing boat on a large inland lake might be considered a "ship". I agree GMRS is one way to go - but the limited range of such equipment is what he's trying to solve. A friend who is a serious kayaker has been on the bay a number of times when he communicates with the large cargo ships (like when he is doing a crossing for example). They always address him as "Captain" Dubside. He finds that amusing. There are a number of reasons why VHF is used, the main one is for the ability to send out a distress call that is likely to be received. Where I have a house at Lake Anna, VA, the same is not true, I want to be the first shore station which monitors channel 16. -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article , rickman wrote: [whole bunch of unneeded previous quotage deleted] Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. Jerry's suggestion of getting amateur radio licenses is a good one if GMRS won't suit your needs. If you're involved in kayaking, do you not have an outdoors or marine store near you? They would certainly be familiar with the best communications options for that sport. Patty N6BIS |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to ^^^^^^^^^^^^ the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The issue is how you use them, no? No. It is NOT OK. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Geoff. Note that the question asked was "Just having them". If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are legal. No, he said, they would be transmitting. Reread what he wrote and I quoted. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
wrote: Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: rickman wrote: Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to ^^^^^^^^^^^^ the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The issue is how you use them, no? No. It is NOT OK. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Geoff. Note that the question asked was "Just having them". If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are legal. No, he said, they would be transmitting. Reread what he wrote and I quoted. Geoff. You reread it; there were several questions there. Care to explain what is wrong with my all purpose answer to all those questions, i.e. if the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are legal? -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article , "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: rickman wrote: Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine communications which is legal by my understanding. Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations# Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me. bill While GMRS or amateur radio might be a better solution, there is no minimum size for a "ship". -- Jim Pennino |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, Patty Winter wrote:
In , wrote: [whole bunch of unneeded previous quotage deleted] Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. Jerry's suggestion of getting amateur radio licenses is a good one if GMRS won't suit your needs. If you're involved in kayaking, do you not have an outdoors or marine store near you? They would certainly be familiar with the best communications options for that sport. Actually I expect they would know what they sell, which for the most part would be handheld devices for kayaks and such and 25 Watt devices for powered vessels. Originally I thought I was asking simple questions about installation, but it seems the licensing is the problem. Even hand held use from land is not allowed if I am reading this correctly. The initial use is to support a group of kayakers who are paddling around Kent Island, an all day trip. In the past we have driven from access point to access point so that we can stay in contact with them and assist if required. We provide information on conditions and relay information between groups in the paddle. This has been done with hand held units and the reliability of the connection is spotty at best due to the limited sight distance. I was hoping to get better coverage by installing a higher power unit in my truck and using an antenna with better figures as well as at a higher location. So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said, I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an option for next year... -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal Station are listed at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47. It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not be eligible for such a license. I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be pushing for non-commercial use on this one. But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol -- Rick |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote: On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote: In , wrote: I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too. Rick- I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed. One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range. You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example, the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on level ground will be about 3 miles away. You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or lake. If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?) ccc Hi Fred, I appreciate the response. I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The other end of the link will all be handheld radios. The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have expected. The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok? I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help figuring out the questions. Rick, You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the United States, so are governed by the FCC. Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river, but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do. You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to "provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is. Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a service to vessels". Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license here, but family members can all operate under the same license (individual licenses are not required). Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies, etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters). I hope this helps you with some ideas. Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station. One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license", but I can't find that info at the moment. Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses? OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal Station are listed at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47. It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not be eligible for such a license. I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be pushing for non-commercial use on this one. I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued. But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the pool from which the questions are taken. But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio (including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options. You can find more information at www.arrl.org. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ================== |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
In article , rickman wrote: [Please trim unnecessary quoted text!] So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Yes, as long as at least one person in each kayak is also licensed. Patty |
Marine VHF Radio for Truck
"rickman" wrote in message news:l064q8$jm5$1@dont- But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol -- I have not read all the thread, but the main thing for amateur license is there any money changing hands in the process? If not and this is just a bunch of friends, then the amateur (ham) license canbe the way to go. You can use whatever ammount of power you want up to 1500 watts. There are some 5 watt hand held units for around $ 50 that seem to work fine. Mobile units of around 50 watts for less than $ 200 . You do not really have to know anything, just have the ability to memorize the answers to around 300 questions. You can get a book (or down load it on line) that has the exect questions and answers. The test will be a portion of the question pool. I think that 70 % is passing. The questions have 4 multiple choice answers to choose from. I don't know the price to take the test now, but probably under $ 15. The exams are given several times a year in most states at differant locations. You can go here to see some practice tests. http://qrz.com/hamtest/ |
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