On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very
often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We
carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a
lot like VHF!

Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you
monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large
one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any
problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's
not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..."

Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type
of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any
number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main
reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to
get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you.
The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or
even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic.

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them, and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very
often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship
was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We
carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a
lot like VHF!

Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you
monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large
one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any
problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's
not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..."

Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type
of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any
number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main
reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to
get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you.
The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or
even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic.


I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there,
or what you hear on the radio.

The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a
perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or
come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/5/2013 9:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple
commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have
said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in
your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them,
and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very
often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship
was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham
bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band. There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We
carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a
lot like VHF!

Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you
monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large
one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any
problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's
not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..."

Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type
of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any
number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main
reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to
get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you.
The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or
even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic.


I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there,
or what you hear on the radio.

The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a
perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or
come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point.

What I want to do is *not* illegal if I get the appropriate license(s).
I don't know why you are getting all huffy about it.

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 9:53 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 6:58 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 9:16 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/5/2013 4:37 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:49 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

So at this point it looks like the idea of getting a simple
commercial
unit for the truck is not an option for this year (the paddle is two
weeks away). I will look into getting a ham license which I believe
would allow me to communicate with the paddlers. Also, as I have
said,
I want to begin monitoring channel 16 at Lake Anna. But no point in
monitoring if I'm not allowed to respond. So maybe this will be an
option for next year...


As we have been saying, there is no problem with you monitoring in
your
truck, but your state may have laws against using a scanner or other
receiver in a vehicle.

A good scanner and antenna at home would allow you to monitor them,
and
a telephone list of emergency numbers would do you good. If
someone is
in trouble, you could use your phone to call for help.

Note that a ham license only allows you to communicate with other
hams
on ham frequencies. There is a provision in US law that allows you
to operate outside of the ham bands in an emergency, but it is very
often
misunderstood, and you would be well advised to study it.

The law was intended for situations like the Titanic, where the ship
was
going down, but unlike the Titanic, no one else was able to hear or
speak with them. I doubt that would ever occur on the Chesapeake.

If there is ANY other means of communication, e.g. a VHF radio, a
cell
phone,
etc, then it is still illegal for you to operate outside the ham
bands.

Is VHF outside of ham bands? I looked at the test data a little, but
didn't find that particular info. From the wording I found about the
licenses, I guess I thought ham use included the marine VHF band.
There
seems to be concern about operating at frequencies below 30 MHz unless
you pass a tougher test.

It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not
allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications,
but it only seems natural to use the same radio for ship to ship and
ship to shore comms.


Hams have frequencies all over the place - including VHF, but a ham
license only allows you to use the ham bands. Other bands have other
license requirements.

And yes, the marine band licenses are very restrictive, but for a very
good reason - there are a limited number of channels available, and
they
are meant for ship business. The FCC doesn't want everyone and their
brother to use it to chat with the family/friends back on shore; in
busier areas the channels would quickly become too crowded to be
usable.
That's why it is limited to shore stations providing services to ships.

Maybe your best bet is to just use cell phones. I would think coverage
around Kent island should be OK.

Lol, if cell phones were remotely practical they would be used. We
carry them on board, but never count on them working... hmmm, sounds a
lot like VHF!

Your concerns with the usage of marine VHF is a bit pedantic. If you
monitor channel 16 in that area 90% of the traffic is, "I caught a large
one, start the grill and chill some beer". It doesn't seem to cause any
problems. I think you over estimate how many ships are out there. It's
not like trucks on the highway, "Breaker, breaker 19..."

Part of the reason for using VHF in kayaks is because that is the type
of radio actually designed for that sort of use. So there are any
number of features built in such as weather warnings, etc. But the main
reason is that if you need help and you use your VHF, you are likely to
get a response from someone very close by who can actually *help* you.
The goal is not to communicate with one person you are kayaking with or
even me on the shore. Other types of radios are just not realistic.


I don't care what you think, or how many ships you think are out there,
or what you hear on the radio.

The bottom line is - what you want to do is illegal, and I gave a
perfectly reasonable explanation for it. You can accept that reason or
come up with your own. I really don't care any more at this point.

What I want to do is *not* illegal if I get the appropriate license(s).
I don't know why you are getting all huffy about it.


That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.

--

Rick

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

On 9/5/2013 11:35 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

That's just it. You don't fit into any of the categories for which a
license is issued. "Providing services" does not mean giving weather
reports to your pals.

They don't need weather reports, they have access to that themselves.


You've missed the point.

Let's recap:

1. You want to use VHF Marine because everybody else is doing it.
2. You don't appear to fit into any of the requirements for a VHF Marine
license.
3. Unlicensed operation, or operation outside what is permitted by your
license, are both illegal.

Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you want to
be able to communicate with them. If your intended communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely operating
in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which have
been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS, FRS, and, I
believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of those will
grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be able
to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what type of
license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Steve in Richmond