The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On 01/12/15 18:38, Michael Black wrote:
On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Brian Reay wrote:

Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Brian Reay wrote:

On 30/11/15 21:47, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for
Ģ65 the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from
the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old
Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars
out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable'
radios. But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an
FT60. Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early
Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The
quality was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying
to break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the
narrower range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more
demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long
ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people
want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable,
cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable
transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


Obviously that is why they are no longer in the market.

DIdn't the same thing happen in the UK? There were some UK based ham
manufacturers, didn't they too fade with the rise of the Japanese rigs?


Absolutely. The same has happened in other areas. My comment wasn't in
anyway 'anti' US. If anything the US has a better track record of
adapting
to the problems of having to compete with such competition. We've been
saddled with short sighted management, Unions, and Government policies.

Actually, my comment was to acknowledge that the UK had some of their
own manufacturers, something that's easy to forget over here in North
America. I can't even remember the famous one, though I do remember
Eddystone.

Michael


You may be thinking of Racal.

As for recognising our manufacturers, you are quite correct. However,
while Jerry seemed to think I was bashing Collins etc., in fact my
comments were far more about the way established companies (including in
the UK) can fail to see where the market is heading. Conversely, the
Japanese (and others since) have tended to be much more market aware.



--
Why you should not ignore animal neglect and cruelty:
http://www.caar-uk.org/why.html

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Brian Reay wrote:

On 01/12/15 18:38, Michael Black wrote:
On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Brian Reay wrote:

Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Brian Reay wrote:

On 30/11/15 21:47, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for
Ģ65 the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from
the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old
Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars
out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable'
radios. But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an
FT60. Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early
Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The
quality was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying
to break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the
narrower range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more
demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long
ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people
want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable,
cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable
transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


Obviously that is why they are no longer in the market.

DIdn't the same thing happen in the UK? There were some UK based ham
manufacturers, didn't they too fade with the rise of the Japanese rigs?


Absolutely. The same has happened in other areas. My comment wasn't in
anyway 'anti' US. If anything the US has a better track record of
adapting
to the problems of having to compete with such competition. We've been
saddled with short sighted management, Unions, and Government policies.

Actually, my comment was to acknowledge that the UK had some of their
own manufacturers, something that's easy to forget over here in North
America. I can't even remember the famous one, though I do remember
Eddystone.

Michael


You may be thinking of Racal.

No, but I hadn't temporarily forgotten Racal. I gather the one with the
Wadley Loop was intended to be on par with the Collins R390.

It wsa "KW" that I was thinking of, and I thought there was more to it, so
I hesitated. That's the most obvious amateur radio company that I can
think of from the UK. I remember reading older issue of CQ, and a woman
wrote often about things in the UK, her husband and son were hams, and
there'd be pictures of the KW Electronics equipment.

As for recognising our manufacturers, you are quite correct. However, while
Jerry seemed to think I was bashing Collins etc., in fact my comments were
far more about the way established companies (including in the UK) can fail
to see where the market is heading. Conversely, the Japanese (and others
since) have tended to be much more market aware.

Yes. The Collins S line (and KWM-2) came out about 1959, I have the issue
of CQ where there is a color insert introducing the line, and and over a
decade later they were still selling it. They didn't change the line
until after Rockwell bought Collins. A lot of those US companies failed
fro a variety of reasons, I gather some of it because they relied on
Military orders, but also they didn't adapt that much, and especially to
solid state. National had the HRO-500 in 1964 and some ham transceivers
in the rest of the sixties, but that was about it. By the time they
issued the HRO-600, there were a relative few made, and it was intended
for government use (ie too expensive for hams). Hallicrafters adapted by
rebadging Japanese solid state gear. I gather some of the problem wasn't
just an inability to get into solid state, but if you were wiring up tube
radios to sell, you'd have to retool to adjust to solid state, especially
with circuit boards. Even the traditional electronic parts stores here
(which also were the places to get ham equipment) mostly disappeared in
the seventies, too stuck with the old tube type parts, new companies
coming along to sell the solid state devices.

Michael

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:47:28 +0000, lordgnome wrote:

You are right there. The consumer stuff that Japan kicked out in the
60's was un-repairable rubbish. The problem was that it was very cheap
and did work for a while - long enough to spell the end of at least one
quality manufacturer of domestic radio in Britain.

On the other hand, I recall handling some very well made Japanese
electronic instrumentation at the time.

Its all down to specifications.
You get what you pay for.

The Japanese manufacturers were under going radical re-arrangements
after WWII.
After the WWII, MacArthur (sp??) and Co were in there getting the place
back up & running. Some specialist people from America were brought over
to give advice to manufacturers and with their help and guidance things
got moving again.
The results were not bad at first but the industry went about learning
what it was doing wrong and correcting itself through self-monitoring
and awareness and corretions.
They learned and adjusted to become a world beating source of high end
products.
Meanwhile back in Europe and America the same methods that were helping
Japan improve were largely ignored until it became obvious that Japan
was actually passing them by.

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

wrote in message
...
After the WWII, MacArthur (sp??) and Co were in there getting the place
back up & running. Some specialist people from America were brought over
to give advice to manufacturers and with their help and guidance things
got moving again.
The results were not bad at first but the industry went about learning
what it was doing wrong and correcting itself through self-monitoring
and awareness and corretions.
They learned and adjusted to become a world beating source of high end
products.
Meanwhile back in Europe and America the same methods that were helping
Japan improve were largely ignored until it became obvious that Japan
was actually passing them by.


I thought it was when Japan ran out of all the low quality American beer
cans the quality improved.

I remember taking a tour of a local TV station around 1970. They mentioned
having a few cameras made in Japan that were beter than the American
cameras. They said as soon as they could they would replace all of them
with the ones from Japan.

I was thinking that in the eairly computer days Japan was selling memory
chips at a loss to put the American companies out of business. Looks like
China may be doing it now to Japan. I have had several of the HTs from
China and they seem to work as well as any of the Icom andYeasues I have had
in the past. Now I can get a whole HT cheeper than the replacement
batteries for the other HTs.

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On 01/12/2015 21:26, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
After the WWII, MacArthur (sp??) and Co were in there getting the place
back up & running. Some specialist people from America were brought over
to give advice to manufacturers and with their help and guidance things
got moving again.
The results were not bad at first but the industry went about learning
what it was doing wrong and correcting itself through self-monitoring
and awareness and corretions.
They learned and adjusted to become a world beating source of high end
products.
Meanwhile back in Europe and America the same methods that were helping
Japan improve were largely ignored until it became obvious that Japan
was actually passing them by.


I thought it was when Japan ran out of all the low quality American beer
cans the quality improved.

I remember taking a tour of a local TV station around 1970. They mentioned
having a few cameras made in Japan that were beter than the American
cameras. They said as soon as they could they would replace all of them
with the ones from Japan.

I was thinking that in the eairly computer days Japan was selling memory
chips at a loss to put the American companies out of business. Looks like
China may be doing it now to Japan. I have had several of the HTs from
China and they seem to work as well as any of the Icom andYeasues I have had
in the past. Now I can get a whole HT cheeper than the replacement
batteries for the other HTs.


http://derbyimages.woot.com/cakalusa...p-tokprx-d.jpg



--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Ralph Mowery wrote:


wrote in message
...
After the WWII, MacArthur (sp??) and Co were in there getting the place
back up & running. Some specialist people from America were brought over
to give advice to manufacturers and with their help and guidance things
got moving again.
The results were not bad at first but the industry went about learning
what it was doing wrong and correcting itself through self-monitoring
and awareness and corretions.
They learned and adjusted to become a world beating source of high end
products.
Meanwhile back in Europe and America the same methods that were helping
Japan improve were largely ignored until it became obvious that Japan
was actually passing them by.


I thought it was when Japan ran out of all the low quality American beer
cans the quality improved.

I remember taking a tour of a local TV station around 1970. They mentioned
having a few cameras made in Japan that were beter than the American
cameras. They said as soon as they could they would replace all of them
with the ones from Japan.

I was thinking that in the eairly computer days Japan was selling memory
chips at a loss to put the American companies out of business. Looks like
China may be doing it now to Japan. I have had several of the HTs from
China and they seem to work as well as any of the Icom andYeasues I have had
in the past. Now I can get a whole HT cheeper than the replacement
batteries for the other HTs.



I had thought about one of those Chinese walkie talkies.

But then I was at a garage sale in June, and someone had an Icom 02-at(?)
for sixty dollars, and I grabbed it. Yes it's old and heavy, but I suspect
I am getting more for the money. I remember when those came out, I guess
it was a Tempo first, with the BCD switches to change channels, this being
a later variant with a pad and LCD display. Oddly, despite being licensed
since 1972, this was my first 2M walkie talkie. I never had enough
interest to spend the money, though I had a chance circa 1980 to get one
of those Tempo ones relatively cheap, AED Electronics had bought one to
create a scanner for it, and then it was surplus.

Michael

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1512012027250.10269@darkstar. example.org...
But then I was at a garage sale in June, and someone had an Icom 02-at(?)
for sixty dollars, and I grabbed it. Yes it's old and heavy, but I suspect
I am getting more for the money. I remember when those came out, I guess
it was a Tempo first, with the BCD switches to change channels, this being
a later variant with a pad and LCD display. Oddly, despite being licensed
since 1972, this was my first 2M walkie talkie. I never had enough
interest to spend the money, though I had a chance circa 1980 to get one
of those Tempo ones relatively cheap, AED Electronics had bought one to
create a scanner for it, and then it was surplus.


I was licensed about the same time. My first Ht was and Icom with the thumb
switches on the top. The others were the Yaesus. I did not have the Icom 02
so can not compair to that one.

Not sure how long the battery will last on the HT you bought, but the China
HT can be bought for what a new battery will cost. The China is dual band,
has slightly more power, over 100 memories, does 144 and 440 bands plus much
out of band coverage if you want, has an FM broadcast receiver, battery last
longer.
If you do have problems with the $ 30 China unit, toss it and get another.
I know about a dozen that have had them and no problems.

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On 30/11/2015 21:34, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
don't wish too hard the alinco line has now BEEN RUINED turned into crap
chinky stuff...compare the DR135MK3 WITH THE new cheaper DR138 CHINKY
NEW MODEL...CRAP

read this good-bye alinco ....

https://hamgear.wordpress.com/2014/1...as-we-know-it/

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

The end of the profiteering emporia?
 

On 02/12/15 04:20, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1512012027250.10269@darkstar. example.org...
But then I was at a garage sale in June, and someone had an Icom 02-at(?)
for sixty dollars, and I grabbed it. Yes it's old and heavy, but I suspect
I am getting more for the money. I remember when those came out, I guess
it was a Tempo first, with the BCD switches to change channels, this being
a later variant with a pad and LCD display. Oddly, despite being licensed
since 1972, this was my first 2M walkie talkie. I never had enough
interest to spend the money, though I had a chance circa 1980 to get one
of those Tempo ones relatively cheap, AED Electronics had bought one to
create a scanner for it, and then it was surplus.


I was licensed about the same time. My first Ht was and Icom with the thumb
switches on the top. The others were the Yaesus. I did not have the Icom 02
so can not compair to that one.

That range of Icoms used removable battery packs which had the
advantage that they screwed together and could be refilled with new
cells. The pack also has a small constant current and simple 'trickle'
charger built into the pack. I've got a couple of 25 year old IC32Es
which I have several BP8 (?) packs for which were ex-PMR and I've
refilled with new cells (NiMH) and adapted the charger accordingly.

The 32E is a bit of a 'brick' but does what is needed.

I've several of the Chinese radios (we've 5 licensees in the family) and
they are certainly good value.

73
Brian
G8OSN/W8OSN



--
Why you should not ignore animal neglect and cruelty:
http://www.caar-uk.org/why.html