On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:51:50 GMT, Jim - NN7K wrote:

If ANY such is to be performed, for railroad equipment, it must be well
thought out, and, further, must face multiple Federal Agencies, and at
least one private one (A.A.R., The American Association of Railroads)
The additional federal agencies a Federal Railroad Administration,
O.S.H.A., and others-- One must also be aware of the facts that MANY
frequencies would have to be involved, because of safety concerns
(much like airlines), against interference. (No, it is NOT just about
Train to train/work crew, and Dispatcher communications that is
involved. Other equipment that railroads use a 1) Track Carriers,
for Crossing grade signals, dragging equipment, high-wide load,
hot box detectors, Broken Rail detection, not to mention some
telephony communications, 2) Remote controlled helper engines (unmanned
engines on the end of trains to push-assist, and brake), 3) "FREDS"
("Friggin Rear End Devices"), some of which provide telemetry to the
engineer of brake pressure, status of tail light, ect.- the new
generation is conversant -2 way, also capable of dumping the
brake pressure (emergency brake application, via remote control)
and, other options (control of Railroad Central Traffic Control,
or CTC. Also, on ALL track circuits, in signaled territory, the
use of Insulated Joints is mandated, by the Federal Railroad
Administration and can cause derailments, and other problems
if NOT adheared to!and, 4) G.P.S. equipment

Thanks, solid points. We have identified the FCC assigned to RR frequencies
and they are outside of the AM/FM bandwidth.

As to the Engines, tho, they have considerable power, they supply
unorthodox voltages (a typical engine uses 600 volt, circuits, and the
electronics used on them is in the 68-72 volt range- further, the newer
engines are A.C. , the older diesels were D.C.

All this is convertible though, correct?

In sum total, then, this isn't a job for sidewalk superintendents!

Nope, sure isn't.

ONE item the railroads is STILL looking for is a concensus, for
a Run-Away vehicle (by their work crews), that would alert a track
gang of that runaway comming at them, causing considerable injury!
They are STILL looking for such a foolproof device!

What's the issue, this appears not to be a huge deal?

Translation:
DON'T hold your breath, or you will get awful blue!! Jim NN7K
Retired Communication Tech, Southern Pacific, and Union Pacific
for over 30 years!!

Thanks, Jim, not holding any breaths. This isn't an in-house project, it's
a coordinated effort that has all the complications and need for input as
you have pointed out. We are asked to be Tech Central of sorts.

Ari Silversteinn wrote:

Indeed it is both. Considering we gave away a central DB technology to
DHS-NOLA, then they failed to use it, we are hoping to make money this
time
around *and* that they will get their acts together.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:26:12 +1300, Ken Taylor wrote:

I'm really not criticizing you, per se, but I don't think the concept is
well thought out.

By it's very nature, it cannot be, it is a dynamically moving target and
will be for some time I would imagine.



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Ari- The power of a locomotive can be converted but, there are
certain problems, like going downhill, not only are brakes applied
to the cars, but the diesels go into "Dynamic Breaking", a complicated
way to say "Let the driver wheels run the motor (as a generator), and
them dump their output to banks of RESISTORS!! Provides great breaking,
but lousey voltage regulation! The radios on these units are powered
by (as stated,) 72 Volts, tho the radios also work on 12 volts (which
was the standard in Cabooses). The main point tho, remains that there
are considerable electronics (the new G.E. A.C.engines , from what
I have been told, are computer operated)! and that anything that
interfers with other items causes considerable greif to the operation
of a railroad- even turning a relay upside down can cause a derailment!



They are STILL looking for such a foolproof device!


What's the issue, this appears not to be a huge deal?


Well, Ari-- the big deal is (Primarily in mountainous country- even
a grade of .5 degree, is considered quite steep). Now, suppose a
Maintainence of Way employees (push car, Motor Car, Hi-Railer (a
pickup equipped for rail travel) accidentally get loose- these can
be doing considerable speed- several MILES later-- worse, these
dont trip the signals, and further, the work crews have the track
from the dispatcher, so these can sneak up on workers with fatal
consequences. A similar thing happened on the old Siskiyou line,
when the powers that be were testing one of the old style of
remote controlled helpers-, going down-hill, on 5 Mile /Hour track
they called the remote to go to dynamic brakeing- but it went to
8-throttle instead (full throttle)! When they got it to control,
that train was doing 20 MPH! Had a bunch of scared people on it!
as you can see, it is not for the faint of heart! I sure wouldn't have
wanted to be anywhere near that track-- would you ??
I know it looks simple, and most times it is, but it doesn't take
much for things to get out of control! Have fun -- Jim

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:31:17 GMT, Jim - NN7K wrote:

Ari- The power of a locomotive can be converted but, there are
certain problems, like going downhill, not only are brakes applied
to the cars, but the diesels go into "Dynamic Breaking", a complicated
way to say "Let the driver wheels run the motor (as a generator), and
them dump their output to banks of RESISTORS!! Provides great breaking,
but lousey voltage regulation! The radios on these units are powered
by (as stated,) 72 Volts, tho the radios also work on 12 volts (which
was the standard in Cabooses). The main point tho, remains that there
are considerable electronics (the new G.E. A.C.engines , from what
I have been told, are computer operated)!

Just saw one, yep, looks exactly that way.

and that anything that
interfers with other items causes considerable greif to the operation
of a railroad- even turning a relay upside down can cause a derailment!

Ah, I see what you mean, thanks again for the heads up. Are you then
suggesting that we create our own, clean power removed from the loco elec
grid?
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:31:17 GMT, Jim - NN7K wrote:

They are STILL looking for such a foolproof device for run away train notification!

What's the issue, this appears not to be a huge deal?

Well, Ari-- the big deal is (Primarily in mountainous country- even
a grade of .5 degree, is considered quite steep). Now, suppose a
Maintainence of Way employees (push car, Motor Car, Hi-Railer (a
pickup equipped for rail travel) accidentally get loose- these can
be doing considerable speed- several MILES later-- worse, these
dont trip the signals, and further, the work crews have the track
from the dispatcher, so these can sneak up on workers with fatal
consequences. A similar thing happened on the old Siskiyou line,
when the powers that be were testing one of the old style of
remote controlled helpers-, going down-hill, on 5 Mile /Hour track
they called the remote to go to dynamic brakeing- but it went to
8-throttle instead (full throttle)! When they got it to control,
that train was doing 20 MPH! Had a bunch of scared people on it!
as you can see, it is not for the faint of heart! I sure wouldn't have
wanted to be anywhere near that track-- would you ??

Not a chance.

I know it looks simple, and most times it is, but it doesn't take
much for things to get out of control! Have fun -- Jim

I meant it seemed not to be, on first look, a difficult technology to
implement. For example, why not a sped sensitive device that set off an
alarm (vocal, radio, other) that could be preset "on" in situations where
these runaways are not manned?

I don't mean to downplay the potential complications but, technically,
getting an appropriate alarm system on a runaway doesn't sound like high
end technology.
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