ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:

So; if they don't fly it, don't keep it airworthy, what if a
hurricane comes along, does it just sit and wait to be ripped to
shreds? More power to them, if they fix it they should fly it. I know
of a collector of fine rare cars, he isn't afraid to send them off
to vintage races or put them on the road. I am also amazed how
collectors rebuild from almost zero remains, so even if it gets
busted up...



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Yes, I know stupid, self-centered people too. What's your point?

Bill, W6WRT

"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:

So; if they don't fly it, don't keep it airworthy, what if a
hurricane comes along, does it just sit and wait to be ripped to
shreds? More power to them, if they fix it they should fly it. I know
of a collector of fine rare cars, he isn't afraid to send them off
to vintage races or put them on the road. I am also amazed how
collectors rebuild from almost zero remains, so even if it gets
busted up...



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Yes, I know stupid, self-centered people too. What's your point?

Bill, are you looking in the mirror as you post?





Bill, W6WRT

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Spokesman wrote:


Bill, are you looking in the mirror as you post?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Lame. Try again.

Bill T.

"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

=K=5=D=H= wrote:

because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins.



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

I'm appalled to see your group is flying this priceless airplane.
Sooner or later someone will crack it up and there will be one less for
future generations to see. Please put pressure on your group to ground
it permanently and preserve it forever so out great-great grandchildren
and all future generations can have the opportunity to see the real
thing and not some replica.

73, Bill W6WRT

An airplane that is not flown is so much scrap metal. They were designed
and built to be flown and in the air is where they belong. If someone wants
a static display let them build a replica.

Dave Stadt wrote:
"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

=K=5=D=H= wrote:

because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins.


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

I'm appalled to see your group is flying this priceless airplane.
Sooner or later someone will crack it up and there will be one less for
future generations to see. Please put pressure on your group to ground
it permanently and preserve it forever so out great-great grandchildren
and all future generations can have the opportunity to see the real
thing and not some replica.

73, Bill W6WRT

An airplane that is not flown is so much scrap metal. They were designed
and built to be flown and in the air is where they belong. If someone wants
a static display let them build a replica.



Hear! Hear!

jak

Dave Stadt wrote:
"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

=K=5=D=H= wrote:

because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins.


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

I'm appalled to see your group is flying this priceless airplane.
Sooner or later someone will crack it up and there will be one less for
future generations to see. Please put pressure on your group to ground
it permanently and preserve it forever so out great-great grandchildren
and all future generations can have the opportunity to see the real
thing and not some replica.

73, Bill W6WRT

An airplane that is not flown is so much scrap metal. They were designed
and built to be flown and in the air is where they belong. If someone wants
a static display let them build a replica.



Add to that the fact that this 'priceless airplane' is only such
*because* this group invested heavily in its existence. Without their
contribution of time, effort, money and hardship, it would--in
fact--(still) be only so much scrap metal.

jak

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

I'm appalled to see your group is flying this priceless airplane.
Sooner or later someone will crack it up and there will be one less for
future generations to see. Please put pressure on your group to ground
it permanently and preserve it forever so out great-great grandchildren
and all future generations can have the opportunity to see the real
thing and not some replica.

73, Bill W6WRT

An airplane that is not flown is so much scrap metal. They were
designed and built to be flown and in the air is where they belong.
If someone wants a static display let them build a replica.


Add to that the fact that this 'priceless airplane' is only such
*because* this group invested heavily in its existence. Without their
contribution of time, effort, money and hardship, it would--in
fact--(still) be only so much scrap metal.

jak

Y'all don't suppose that Bill posted his little rebuttal simply
because the OP politely asked him not to? Something about "stirring the pot"
comes to mind.

-Chuck

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Chuck Harris wrote:

Y'all don't suppose that Bill posted his little rebuttal simply
because the OP politely asked him not to? Something about "stirring
the pot" comes to mind.

-Chuck



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

No, Bill posted his little rebuttal because he thinks the OP is an
idiot but hopes he will come to his senses anyway.

Throughout history there have been many irreplaceable treasures lost
because nobody thought future generations would might like to see the
original instead of a replica. A real, genuine B-17 is a priceless
relic of an age that will never be repeated. Save it.

Mr Bill

Holy cow, what a firestorm I've started!

In my original post, I should have included the following
statement (which might have avoided this useless fight):

Please keep your opinion to yourself BECAUSE THIS IS NOT
THE RIGHT FORUM FOR SUCH A DISCUSSION (on whether it's
right or wrong to fly vintage aircraft, etc). I surely
did not mean that we all can't have our opinions. This
IS still the United States of America, and that IS still
one of our most basic, cherished freedoms. I, too, would
fight to the death to defend those freedoms. However,
there is a time and place to discuss any topic worth
discussing, and this simply isn't the place for the "fly
or no fly" topic. This is a forum for discussing radios,
not the politics of aviation.

Of course, hindsight is 20-20. I apologize to the group
for opening the flood gates and inadvertently getting this
inappropriate firestorm started.

I'll toss in my comments, since the horse has long ago
escaped from the barn.

For those who believe that we should ground our B-17
to preserve it for future generations, lest it might
someday be destroyed and no one will get to see one
in the future, fear not. There are literally dozens
of B-17s on static display all over the world. A few
of those static restorations are superb (witness the
USAF Museum's Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby), while a many other
static planes are cobbled-together airframes that are
literally rotting away on outdoor display. One need
only look for static B-17s, and they'll be relatively
easy to find. They're not really in short supply.

Someone mentioned seeing Memphis Belle flying back in
the 1980s (I think that's what they said). Memphis
Belle has not flown in decades. There is another "F"
model that's painted to represent the Belle, and that
aircraft is a regular flyer on the show circuit. As
I recall, it's the only flying "F" model.

The comment about many vintage warplanes crashing due
to poor piloting and poor maintenance is right on the
money. These old aircraft require a LOT of work to
keep them safely operational, and they require a LOT
of pilot skill and training to keep the pilots from
making the poor decision that lead to crashes. Many
groups have fallen into this category (including the
mighty CAF), but that's changing. We're seeing a big
trend toward proper restorations (not just patching
airplanes together) and proper training of pilots and
crews. The safety records are getting better (though
we certainly have a long way to go). The warbird
community recognizes that slip-shod restoration work
ain't gonna cut it, and pilot training has become the
big focus that it should have been in the past. We're
not out of the woods yet, but we're a LOT better, and
continuing to improve.

VFM's chief pilot (and the actual owner of our B-17)
is one of the few B-17 flight instructors in the world.
He's owned and flown this particular airplane since the
1970s. Our chief mechanic is a lifelong A&P mechanic
(also a ham!). Our maintenance schedule is thorough
and very rigorous. NOTHING comes before safety, on
the ground and in the air. Our ground and air crews
go through recurrent annual training and constant
on-the-line training. If there's a problem, then the
airplane does not fly. It's as simple as that. No
airshow commitment is important enough to risk the
lives of our crews or the safety of the airplane. As
I stated before, the reason we don't have money to go
buy vintage radios is that our money goes into the
one really important thing: the airplane itself.

OK... as Ed Zeranski pointed out... the purpose of my
original posting was to try to acquire original radio
gear for the B-17. So far, a lot of people have come
out of the woodwork to argue and fight and whine, but
Ed's the only one who's actually offered to donate
anything (other than myself; I donated a nice ARC5
transmitter from my own station).

As I told Ed in a private email, the chances that we
will be able to put together a working station aboard
the aircraft are pretty small. So far, no other '17
has a working station, though several of them have a
nice set of original radios installed but not wired.
We won't rule out the possibility of getting some of
the gear to work (at least the BC-348-J receiver),
but since all of the required wiring was removed from
the airframe decades ago, it would be daunting task
that would require a lot of money and volunteer hours.
We prefer to spend the money keeping the airplane in
proper, safe flying condition, and using her to share
history with those who come to the museum and to the
air shows to see and appreciate it.

I said in my original post that we have a BC-348-P on
board the '17. I was mistaken. It's a BC-348-J. I
didn't have my notes handy when I wrote the post.

So... GENTLEMEN... let's halt the "fly - no fly" part
of this thread... let's agree to disagree and get back
to the original purpose. If no one is interested in
helping us out, that's fine. We will survive. Let's
just stop all of the arguing and whining. This isn't
the right forum for it. Write to the FAA and ask them
to stop allowing us to fly. Write to Air Classics and
tell the world why what we do is wrong (and yes, Mike
O'Leary WILL publish letters of dissent!). Stand out
in front of our museum entrance and hand out flyers to
our guests if you like. Let's just re-focus on radio
gear here on these newsgroups! Please?

73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH



In article , says...

WANTED: B-17G Flying Fortress radio equipment

This is a long message... please read it all!

The Vintage Flying Museum of Fort Worth, Texas, home
of B-17G N3701G, "Chuckie", is seeking DONATIONS of
any kind of radio and radar equipment that would have
been used aboard B-17G's built from early-1944 on.

Our airplane is a B-17G-70-VE, serial number 44-8543A.
She was built in January, 1944, by the Vega division
of Lockheed (B-17G's were built by Boeing, Douglas,
and Vega). She was converted to a "pathfinder" model,
which means she had a radar set installed in place of
the ball turret which allowed bombing through overcast.
Very few Forts were converted for this mission, and it
is possible that our Fort saw combat time over Europe.
The combat records of the pathfinder Forts are still
classified, so we may never know for sure.

Right now, the only original radio gear installed in
the airplane is a BC-348-P receiver and shock mount.
We need everything else. Some of the specific items
we seek are the BC-375-E transmitter, tuning units
TU-4B through TU-10B, BC-306 antenna matching unit,
the wooded tuning unit storage rack that mounts to the
rear bulkhead, ceramic feedthrough insulators, power
and control connectors, and cables. We're also looking
for command set transmitters, receivers, racks, cables,
control boxes, spline cables (the LONG ones that will
reach the flight deck ceiling), modulator, and so on.

Obviously, we are looking for NICE equipment that is
in display condition because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins. We'll
certainly accept donations of "parts units", but the
primary focus is on acquiring gear that looks good
enough to be installed in the airplane. We want to
impress our tour guests at the air shows with a great
looking radio room! Do you have some surplus military
WW2 airborne radios stashed in your garage or attic?
Would you like to see them go to a good home? Please
donate your equipment to VFM and help us restore the
radio compartment in our beloved B-17! Any radios and
accessories that we don't use in the airplane will be
either put on display in the Museum's exhibit hall or
sold off to generate money to help finance the effort
(no matter how much gets donated, we'll still end up
having to buy some stuff to complete the job!).

We are a small museum, and we have very limited funds
available to spend on things that don't actually help
us to keep the airplane flying. We are looking for
DONATIONS of equipment. We are a 501-c-3 tax-exempt
charitable organization, and we will provide a tax
receipt for your donation.

"Chuckie" is one of approximately 15 B-17s worldwide
that are still in flyable condition, and one of about
10 that is flown regularly. Please don't "bash" me
if my numbers are off by a plane or two; the numbers
go up and down as some Forts come out of restoration
and others go down for heavy maintenance or retirement.
She participated in the fabuluous Thunder Over Michigan
air show in 2005 in which EIGHT of the remaining B-17
population were not only present at the show, but flew
together! It was the largest gathering of civilian
B-17s in history, and it may never be repeated.

Please visit the Museum's web site:

http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org

I have been authorized by the Museum to be the focal
point for this effort. Please address your messages
directly to me.

We're also looking for a complete chin turret if you
happen to have one stashed in your barn! Actually,
we will graciously accept donations of ANY B-17 parts
that you might have lying around.

My final request is this: If you have nothing nice to
say about this effort, please say nothing. If you are
not a warbird fan, if you believe our effort is a waste
of time and money, if you think we're "glorifying" war,
if you think operating antique warplanes is dangerous
and should be outlawed, etc, etc... you're entitled to
your opinion, but I respectfully ask that you keep it
to yourself.

Thanks and 73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum member

Well if you had asked for the radio gear without your horse **** caveat,
rules and regulation probably no one would have responded.




"-=H=-" wrote in message
...
Holy cow, what a firestorm I've started!

In my original post, I should have included the following
statement (which might have avoided this useless fight):

Please keep your opinion to yourself BECAUSE THIS IS NOT
THE RIGHT FORUM FOR SUCH A DISCUSSION (on whether it's
right or wrong to fly vintage aircraft, etc). I surely
did not mean that we all can't have our opinions. This
IS still the United States of America, and that IS still
one of our most basic, cherished freedoms. I, too, would
fight to the death to defend those freedoms. However,
there is a time and place to discuss any topic worth
discussing, and this simply isn't the place for the "fly
or no fly" topic. This is a forum for discussing radios,
not the politics of aviation.

Of course, hindsight is 20-20. I apologize to the group
for opening the flood gates and inadvertently getting this
inappropriate firestorm started.

I'll toss in my comments, since the horse has long ago
escaped from the barn.

For those who believe that we should ground our B-17
to preserve it for future generations, lest it might
someday be destroyed and no one will get to see one
in the future, fear not. There are literally dozens
of B-17s on static display all over the world. A few
of those static restorations are superb (witness the
USAF Museum's Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby), while a many other
static planes are cobbled-together airframes that are
literally rotting away on outdoor display. One need
only look for static B-17s, and they'll be relatively
easy to find. They're not really in short supply.

Someone mentioned seeing Memphis Belle flying back in
the 1980s (I think that's what they said). Memphis
Belle has not flown in decades. There is another "F"
model that's painted to represent the Belle, and that
aircraft is a regular flyer on the show circuit. As
I recall, it's the only flying "F" model.

The comment about many vintage warplanes crashing due
to poor piloting and poor maintenance is right on the
money. These old aircraft require a LOT of work to
keep them safely operational, and they require a LOT
of pilot skill and training to keep the pilots from
making the poor decision that lead to crashes. Many
groups have fallen into this category (including the
mighty CAF), but that's changing. We're seeing a big
trend toward proper restorations (not just patching
airplanes together) and proper training of pilots and
crews. The safety records are getting better (though
we certainly have a long way to go). The warbird
community recognizes that slip-shod restoration work
ain't gonna cut it, and pilot training has become the
big focus that it should have been in the past. We're
not out of the woods yet, but we're a LOT better, and
continuing to improve.

VFM's chief pilot (and the actual owner of our B-17)
is one of the few B-17 flight instructors in the world.
He's owned and flown this particular airplane since the
1970s. Our chief mechanic is a lifelong A&P mechanic
(also a ham!). Our maintenance schedule is thorough
and very rigorous. NOTHING comes before safety, on
the ground and in the air. Our ground and air crews
go through recurrent annual training and constant
on-the-line training. If there's a problem, then the
airplane does not fly. It's as simple as that. No
airshow commitment is important enough to risk the
lives of our crews or the safety of the airplane. As
I stated before, the reason we don't have money to go
buy vintage radios is that our money goes into the
one really important thing: the airplane itself.

OK... as Ed Zeranski pointed out... the purpose of my
original posting was to try to acquire original radio
gear for the B-17. So far, a lot of people have come
out of the woodwork to argue and fight and whine, but
Ed's the only one who's actually offered to donate
anything (other than myself; I donated a nice ARC5
transmitter from my own station).

As I told Ed in a private email, the chances that we
will be able to put together a working station aboard
the aircraft are pretty small. So far, no other '17
has a working station, though several of them have a
nice set of original radios installed but not wired.
We won't rule out the possibility of getting some of
the gear to work (at least the BC-348-J receiver),
but since all of the required wiring was removed from
the airframe decades ago, it would be daunting task
that would require a lot of money and volunteer hours.
We prefer to spend the money keeping the airplane in
proper, safe flying condition, and using her to share
history with those who come to the museum and to the
air shows to see and appreciate it.

I said in my original post that we have a BC-348-P on
board the '17. I was mistaken. It's a BC-348-J. I
didn't have my notes handy when I wrote the post.

So... GENTLEMEN... let's halt the "fly - no fly" part
of this thread... let's agree to disagree and get back
to the original purpose. If no one is interested in
helping us out, that's fine. We will survive. Let's
just stop all of the arguing and whining. This isn't
the right forum for it. Write to the FAA and ask them
to stop allowing us to fly. Write to Air Classics and
tell the world why what we do is wrong (and yes, Mike
O'Leary WILL publish letters of dissent!). Stand out
in front of our museum entrance and hand out flyers to
our guests if you like. Let's just re-focus on radio
gear here on these newsgroups! Please?

73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH



In article , says...

WANTED: B-17G Flying Fortress radio equipment

This is a long message... please read it all!

The Vintage Flying Museum of Fort Worth, Texas, home
of B-17G N3701G, "Chuckie", is seeking DONATIONS of
any kind of radio and radar equipment that would have
been used aboard B-17G's built from early-1944 on.

Our airplane is a B-17G-70-VE, serial number 44-8543A.
She was built in January, 1944, by the Vega division
of Lockheed (B-17G's were built by Boeing, Douglas,
and Vega). She was converted to a "pathfinder" model,
which means she had a radar set installed in place of
the ball turret which allowed bombing through overcast.
Very few Forts were converted for this mission, and it
is possible that our Fort saw combat time over Europe.
The combat records of the pathfinder Forts are still
classified, so we may never know for sure.

Right now, the only original radio gear installed in
the airplane is a BC-348-P receiver and shock mount.
We need everything else. Some of the specific items
we seek are the BC-375-E transmitter, tuning units
TU-4B through TU-10B, BC-306 antenna matching unit,
the wooded tuning unit storage rack that mounts to the
rear bulkhead, ceramic feedthrough insulators, power
and control connectors, and cables. We're also looking
for command set transmitters, receivers, racks, cables,
control boxes, spline cables (the LONG ones that will
reach the flight deck ceiling), modulator, and so on.

Obviously, we are looking for NICE equipment that is
in display condition because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins. We'll
certainly accept donations of "parts units", but the
primary focus is on acquiring gear that looks good
enough to be installed in the airplane. We want to
impress our tour guests at the air shows with a great
looking radio room! Do you have some surplus military
WW2 airborne radios stashed in your garage or attic?
Would you like to see them go to a good home? Please
donate your equipment to VFM and help us restore the
radio compartment in our beloved B-17! Any radios and
accessories that we don't use in the airplane will be
either put on display in the Museum's exhibit hall or
sold off to generate money to help finance the effort
(no matter how much gets donated, we'll still end up
having to buy some stuff to complete the job!).

We are a small museum, and we have very limited funds
available to spend on things that don't actually help
us to keep the airplane flying. We are looking for
DONATIONS of equipment. We are a 501-c-3 tax-exempt
charitable organization, and we will provide a tax
receipt for your donation.

"Chuckie" is one of approximately 15 B-17s worldwide
that are still in flyable condition, and one of about
10 that is flown regularly. Please don't "bash" me
if my numbers are off by a plane or two; the numbers
go up and down as some Forts come out of restoration
and others go down for heavy maintenance or retirement.
She participated in the fabuluous Thunder Over Michigan
air show in 2005 in which EIGHT of the remaining B-17
population were not only present at the show, but flew
together! It was the largest gathering of civilian
B-17s in history, and it may never be repeated.

Please visit the Museum's web site:

http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org

I have been authorized by the Museum to be the focal
point for this effort. Please address your messages
directly to me.

We're also looking for a complete chin turret if you
happen to have one stashed in your barn! Actually,
we will graciously accept donations of ANY B-17 parts
that you might have lying around.

My final request is this: If you have nothing nice to
say about this effort, please say nothing. If you are
not a warbird fan, if you believe our effort is a waste
of time and money, if you think we're "glorifying" war,
if you think operating antique warplanes is dangerous
and should be outlawed, etc, etc... you're entitled to
your opinion, but I respectfully ask that you keep it
to yourself.

Thanks and 73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum member