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How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:38:03 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
wrote: You know how an IC gives off heat in relation to how hard it is working, ("constant current" is a myth) heat is only one part of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, constant current is a fact. The IC draws constant current in many MP3 players and does not substantially change it's heat output unless entirely turned off or put to sleep which is an entirely separate mode of player operation, not momentary in use like with a CPU. Switching devices certainly produce as much "noise" when they operate as analog devices, more in most cases. We may have a mic on shielded cable running to a constant current chip that digitizes. It's spitting out digits when there's no noise as well as when there is. Yes there may be noise, but it may not vary as with the old analog, and certainly not as noisey as something more obvious- a transmitter signal. We have devices that can detect very, very low wattage signals. That may be useful if you have an object in your hand, but remember the unknown context of this thread, and that they can't be constantly false detecting cell phones, beepers, etc, providing the cell phone isn't recording off-grid which is a whole 'nuther issue. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:38:03 -0500, "Ken Maltby" wrote: You know how an IC gives off heat in relation to how hard it is working, ("constant current" is a myth) heat is only one part of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, constant current is a fact. The IC draws constant current in many MP3 players and does not substantially change it's heat output unless entirely turned off or put to sleep which is an entirely separate mode of player operation, not momentary in use like with a CPU. No, contsant current isn't a fact. When an IC sends outputs the signals on the traces are switching and unless the same data is flowing you will see different currents depending on what data is bieng sent and what was sent before. Resistance can also change. ---Matthew Hicks |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:38:03 -0500, "Ken Maltby" wrote: You know how an IC gives off heat in relation to how hard it is working, ("constant current" is a myth) heat is only one part of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, constant current is a fact. The IC draws constant current in many MP3 players and does not substantially change it's heat output unless entirely turned off or put to sleep which is an entirely separate mode of player operation, not momentary in use like with a CPU. Switching devices certainly produce as much "noise" when they operate as analog devices, more in most cases. We may have a mic on shielded cable running to a constant current chip that digitizes. It's spitting out digits when there's no noise as well as when there is. Yes there may be noise, but it may not vary as with the old analog, and certainly not as noisey as something more obvious- a transmitter signal. We have devices that can detect very, very low wattage signals. That may be useful if you have an object in your hand, but remember the unknown context of this thread, and that they can't be constantly false detecting cell phones, beepers, etc, providing the cell phone isn't recording off-grid which is a whole 'nuther issue. Normally people entering rooms have to pass through doorways. I would think any "open mike" that responds to the pattern should be considered a threat. But look, you can believe what you want, your world can be a much simpler place, if you don't delve into these issues. Luck; Ken |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:49:05 -0500, "Matthew Hicks"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:38:03 -0500, "Ken Maltby" wrote: You know how an IC gives off heat in relation to how hard it is working, ("constant current" is a myth) heat is only one part of the electromagnetic spectrum. No, constant current is a fact. The IC draws constant current in many MP3 players and does not substantially change it's heat output unless entirely turned off or put to sleep which is an entirely separate mode of player operation, not momentary in use like with a CPU. No, contsant current isn't a fact. When an IC sends outputs the signals on the traces are switching and unless the same data is flowing you will see different currents depending on what data is bieng sent and what was sent before. Resistance can also change. The signals are fairly constant, encoded bits regardless of whether there's silence or not. My argument is not whether the mere presences of signals can be deteced, but rather there is a significant enough difference in signal to detect with sound input versus silence (in the room). Claiming you will see different currents based on the data is easy with the gear open and measurement by wire. Trying to find whether there is an unknown device present or not is not quite same situation. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:28:13 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
wrote: That may be useful if you have an object in your hand, but remember the unknown context of this thread, and that they can't be constantly false detecting cell phones, beepers, etc, providing the cell phone isn't recording off-grid which is a whole 'nuther issue. Normally people entering rooms have to pass through doorways. I would think any "open mike" that responds to the pattern should be considered a threat. Sure, but we haven't established that it really will be detectable based on a pattern of sound. Presuming it will because some other type of device can be detected isn't reliable. But look, you can believe what you want, your world can be a much simpler place, if you don't delve into these issues. This is a fairly generic non-applicable comment. We could as easily consider the opposite, that you can believe what you want and your world can be a much more paranoid place if you don't delve into the specifics- but either way we cannot assume detection without any evidence of same type device BEING detected in an applicable scenario. While a doorway detector could be more easily implemented than some, it's also not going to detect a device turned off at the time. We'll have to consider the specifics of a digital recorder, and perhaps even more significantly one that might be chosen to be harder to detect if it were to be used for a stealthy purpose. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
Arno Wagner wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jamie t wrote: Arno Wagner wrote: In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Joey wrote: Suppose someone visited your office or home and tried to make a voice recording using a hidden recorder. If they used a older-style dictation machine based on tape then you could detect the electromagnetic transmissions from the dictation machine when it was recording. But how would you detect if someone was secretly recording with an MP3 player that recorded to flash memory? Is there some transmission which could be detected? Perhaps some low power ultra high frequency from chip refresh cycles? Not really. You could maybe detect that it was turned on with an RF scanner. But if it is low power enough (most MP3 players are, since they are optimised for that) and well shielded, you would likely get nothing in today's RF polluted environment. In addition the attacker may just add some more shielding to be sure. I think you can basically forget about this, unless you can take the devices away from people. Arno i have seen a device used by an electrical instructor at a trade school. he does not like any Cell, recorders or electronic devices active while in his class. this device will buzz and vibrate in his pocket as he walks around the class, he can walk right up to the student that has something on.. it works by detecting a variation of known R.F. frequencies that helps him decide on an LCD screen of the device what it could be, and then it has wide band detection of any R.F. generation.. as you know, most devices do generate some R.F. of some freq.. i've seen it in use and its on the market... all i can say is by his words, "it works very good" That sounds like BS to me. Of course cellphones are very easy to detect that way, and I expect that is what he is showing off. Forget about non-woreless devices. They have several orders of magnitude less RF emanations. This guy is likely demonstrating with cellphones and then claiming he can detect the other things without ever demonstrating. Arno maybe you should step out of the dark and into the real world. have you ever use a service monitor to scan a wide spectrum of frequencies? i can tell you that wide band receivers on a mini board exist and are very sensitive to external R.F. when your standing beside the person with in 3 feet of them. most devices these day's involve embedded processes which also uses R.F. clock devices. it would take a very high priced unit with proper casing and shielding to reduce the emissions low enough for this device to not detect it. most consumer electronics is very sloppy in the area. in fact, there has been cases where cheaply made devices that xfer lets say audio information in a digital format causes their internal osc's to be unstable enough when voice is passing through the mic/pre'amp circuits, that some one with a high gain FM receiver can detect clear enough audio from a distance before it even gets encoded digitally for final destination. the average joe wouldn't even think of this let alone attempt to waste their time in trying it how ever, there are people out there that spend a lot of time investigating consumer devices just for the purpose of simple wireless taps and detection of use. -- Real Programmers Do things like this. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jamie t wrote:
Arno Wagner wrote: In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jamie t wrote: Arno Wagner wrote: In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Joey wrote: Suppose someone visited your office or home and tried to make a voice recording using a hidden recorder. If they used a older-style dictation machine based on tape then you could detect the electromagnetic transmissions from the dictation machine when it was recording. But how would you detect if someone was secretly recording with an MP3 player that recorded to flash memory? Is there some transmission which could be detected? Perhaps some low power ultra high frequency from chip refresh cycles? Not really. You could maybe detect that it was turned on with an RF scanner. But if it is low power enough (most MP3 players are, since they are optimised for that) and well shielded, you would likely get nothing in today's RF polluted environment. In addition the attacker may just add some more shielding to be sure. I think you can basically forget about this, unless you can take the devices away from people. Arno i have seen a device used by an electrical instructor at a trade school. he does not like any Cell, recorders or electronic devices active while in his class. this device will buzz and vibrate in his pocket as he walks around the class, he can walk right up to the student that has something on.. it works by detecting a variation of known R.F. frequencies that helps him decide on an LCD screen of the device what it could be, and then it has wide band detection of any R.F. generation.. as you know, most devices do generate some R.F. of some freq.. i've seen it in use and its on the market... all i can say is by his words, "it works very good" That sounds like BS to me. Of course cellphones are very easy to detect that way, and I expect that is what he is showing off. Forget about non-woreless devices. They have several orders of magnitude less RF emanations. This guy is likely demonstrating with cellphones and then claiming he can detect the other things without ever demonstrating. Arno maybe you should step out of the dark and into the real world. have you ever use a service monitor to scan a wide spectrum of frequencies? I have used a spectrum analyser. I admit I am not an EMI expert. However cellphone detection is far simpler than detection of other devices.... i can tell you that wide band receivers on a mini board exist and are very sensitive to external R.F. when your standing beside the person with in 3 feet of them. most devices these day's involve embedded processes which also uses R.F. clock devices. it would take a very high priced unit with proper casing and shielding to reduce the emissions low enough for this device to not detect it. most consumer electronics is very sloppy in the area. in fact, there has been cases where cheaply made devices that xfer lets say audio information in a digital format causes their internal osc's to be unstable enough when voice is passing through the mic/pre'amp circuits, that some one with a high gain FM receiver can detect clear enough audio from a distance before it even gets encoded digitally for final destination. the average joe wouldn't even think of this let alone attempt to waste their time in trying it how ever, there are people out there that spend a lot of time investigating consumer devices just for the purpose of simple wireless taps and detection of use. Oh, I know. But I was pointing out that the guy described does not need to have what he claimed. And in addition, how do you separate, e.g., the crystal in a high-powerd pocket calculator from the one in the MP3 recorder? Detecting RF energy is not that difficult. It becomes difficult if you have a lot of background noise or need an identification in addition. Arno |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On 11 Oct 2006, Dana wrote:
"Ken Maltby" wrote in message ... "Joey" wrote in message ... On 10 Oct 2006, kony wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:51:51 +0100, Joey wrote: You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Then the only practical alternative remaining is to have them consent to and go through a metal detector, and of course it has to be actively manned to discriminate a potential recorder from some other device, object, etc. If you find what might be an MP player, you won't be able to determine if it's recording, rather than playing, or if recording off the radio. Unless MP3 players become illegal devices, or at least clearly posted as banned on private premises, you can't justify a search or seizure either (depending on laws in your locale). If private property, the other party may still refuse a search and seizure attempt. Even scanning for such a device's radiated energy at entrance to an area, that wouldn't prevent them from turning on the device later. Unless you have the expectation that you can seize such equipment, you should follow the same guidelines you should have otherwise- not saying anything of importance in the presence of someone who can't be trusted not to repeat, reproduce, etc., in any way. Ultimately going to such extra lengths will tend to make people suspect you have something to hide and put your activities under more scrutiny. Thanks Kony. So the MP3 recorder is essentially undetectable during its operation. OK. Thanks. Maybe that explains why I can't find any follow-on products for tape recorder detection while many of the the older devices are no longer available. It should not come as a surprise, that security concerns that deal in high level technological detection devices, don't advertise to the general public that much. Search harder. I hinted at that a couple of days ago. It has been amusing watching some of the replies from some of the people here. You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On 11 Oct 2006, Aly wrote:
Joey wrote in message ... [...] Sorry for my rather unhelpful reply, I'm having one of my moments where I only talk to microcontrollers. No problems. Seriously though. There's very little in world that's so important. I've worked with people that would *record* meetings thinking they were of vital importance when in actual truth, no one could care less. I guess it would just cause people to be more careful about what they say. I'm unable to view those videos you've supplied as this is a development machine without any clutter on it. eBay could be a good place to buy such things though. All sorts of stuff comes out of the AsiaPac. This is to document something quite serious. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"Joey" wrote in message ... On 11 Oct 2006, Dana wrote: "Ken Maltby" wrote in message ... "Joey" wrote in message ... On 10 Oct 2006, kony wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:51:51 +0100, Joey wrote: You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Then the only practical alternative remaining is to have them consent to and go through a metal detector, and of course it has to be actively manned to discriminate a potential recorder from some other device, object, etc. If you find what might be an MP player, you won't be able to determine if it's recording, rather than playing, or if recording off the radio. Unless MP3 players become illegal devices, or at least clearly posted as banned on private premises, you can't justify a search or seizure either (depending on laws in your locale). If private property, the other party may still refuse a search and seizure attempt. Even scanning for such a device's radiated energy at entrance to an area, that wouldn't prevent them from turning on the device later. Unless you have the expectation that you can seize such equipment, you should follow the same guidelines you should have otherwise- not saying anything of importance in the presence of someone who can't be trusted not to repeat, reproduce, etc., in any way. Ultimately going to such extra lengths will tend to make people suspect you have something to hide and put your activities under more scrutiny. Thanks Kony. So the MP3 recorder is essentially undetectable during its operation. OK. Thanks. Maybe that explains why I can't find any follow-on products for tape recorder detection while many of the the older devices are no longer available. It should not come as a surprise, that security concerns that deal in high level technological detection devices, don't advertise to the general public that much. Search harder. I hinted at that a couple of days ago. It has been amusing watching some of the replies from some of the people here. You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. Detecting electronics devices in general, is it useful? We dont know the exact scenario, what the result would be of a positive detection but as above, cell phones and pagers would tend to be caught and are going to be far more common and innocuous than a recording device, though in the former case, the phone may have recording capability too. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, Sure it is since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. Yep, and all are detectable, and all have signatures. Detecting electronics devices in general, is it useful? Depends on who you ask The OP is not the only one who wants to ensure no one is able to record conversations, or hear conversations they should not be hearing. We dont know the exact scenario, He gave the scenario. what the result would be of a positive detection but as above, cell phones and pagers would tend to be caught and are going to be far more common and innocuous than a recording device, though in the former case, the phone may have recording capability too. True enough, but the technology is there to do what is being requested. Now if the OP can afford it, or even obtain it is a different issue. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:22:57 -0500, Mitch Crane -three
wrote: Joey wrote in : You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Would an all nude work environment be acceptable? It would make hiding such devices difficult so you wouldn't have to do anything untoward like searching people. You'd be surprised where people can hide things: http://www.dailymotion.com/blog/vide...ht.blogs.co m Caution! NSFW! max |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. And what is a common item to circuit boards, IC's, cell phones, pagers, MP3 players, etc. There are devices made to detect the presence of semiconductors, and these have been out for ages. And now with the war on terror going on, you would not believe what kind of sensors they are coming up with. Minor modifications of some of these units would not be very difficult to detect a mere MP3 in someones pocket. But then these would not be cheap either, if you can even get one. Detecting electronics devices in general, is it useful? We dont know the exact scenario, what the result would be of a positive detection but as above, cell phones and pagers would tend to be caught and are going to be far more common and innocuous than a recording device, though in the former case, the phone may have recording capability too. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
Well shielded (for example, wrapped to copper foil), 1.5V AAA powered device
will give EMI below ambient level. If its clock generator employs spread spectrum, it's even more difficult to detect. "Joey" wrote in message ... Suppose someone visited your office or home and tried to make a voice recording using a hidden recorder. If they used a older-style dictation machine based on tape then you could detect the electromagnetic transmissions from the dictation machine when it was recording. But how would you detect if someone was secretly recording with an MP3 player that recorded to flash memory? Is there some transmission which could be detected? Perhaps some low power ultra high frequency from chip refresh cycles? |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
Aly wrote: Joey wrote in message ... Suppose someone visited your office or home and tried to make a voice recording using a hidden recorder. Your only real option is to hold your meetings in the middle of field, and for everyone to be naked. Just think what could be done with a parabolic microphone and a telephoto lens. :) Aside from that, unless you work for MI5 or have alot of money then the above would be far easier. If it was that important you wouldn't be asking the question here. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
Joey wrote: On 11 Oct 2006, Aly wrote: Joey wrote in message ... [...] Sorry for my rather unhelpful reply, I'm having one of my moments where I only talk to microcontrollers. No problems. Seriously though. There's very little in world that's so important. I've worked with people that would *record* meetings thinking they were of vital importance when in actual truth, no one could care less. I guess it would just cause people to be more careful about what they say. I'm unable to view those videos you've supplied as this is a development machine without any clutter on it. eBay could be a good place to buy such things though. All sorts of stuff comes out of the AsiaPac. This is to document something quite serious. Are you the trying to be the documenter, or trying to avoid being the documentee? Or both? |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Joey wrote:
On 11 Oct 2006, Dana wrote: "Ken Maltby" wrote in message ... "Joey" wrote in message ... On 10 Oct 2006, kony wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:51:51 +0100, Joey wrote: You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Then the only practical alternative remaining is to have them consent to and go through a metal detector, and of course it has to be actively manned to discriminate a potential recorder from some other device, object, etc. If you find what might be an MP player, you won't be able to determine if it's recording, rather than playing, or if recording off the radio. Unless MP3 players become illegal devices, or at least clearly posted as banned on private premises, you can't justify a search or seizure either (depending on laws in your locale). If private property, the other party may still refuse a search and seizure attempt. Even scanning for such a device's radiated energy at entrance to an area, that wouldn't prevent them from turning on the device later. Unless you have the expectation that you can seize such equipment, you should follow the same guidelines you should have otherwise- not saying anything of importance in the presence of someone who can't be trusted not to repeat, reproduce, etc., in any way. Ultimately going to such extra lengths will tend to make people suspect you have something to hide and put your activities under more scrutiny. Thanks Kony. So the MP3 recorder is essentially undetectable during its operation. OK. Thanks. Maybe that explains why I can't find any follow-on products for tape recorder detection while many of the the older devices are no longer available. It should not come as a surprise, that security concerns that deal in high level technological detection devices, don't advertise to the general public that much. Search harder. I hinted at that a couple of days ago. It has been amusing watching some of the replies from some of the people here. You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? Detection is a minor problem. Correct identification is the issue. This is likely infeasible, unless you have the specific recorder in question beforehand. And remember that you wanted to know whether it is recording. Even more difficult.... Arno |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
max wrote in
: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:22:57 -0500, Mitch Crane -three wrote: Joey wrote in : You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Would an all nude work environment be acceptable? It would make hiding such devices difficult so you wouldn't have to do anything untoward like searching people. You'd be surprised where people can hide things: http://www.dailymotion.com/blog/vide...yuv3g7lzul2w64 rs1iaad00kom8c0ii3&play=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fsus iebright.blogs.com Caution! NSFW! Sure, but I don't think the MP3 recorder would work very well in there, so the point is moot. -- ybbxvatyvxrnobeantnvayvivatyvxrnurergvpyvfgravatgb neguheyrrerpbeqfznxv atnyylbhesevraqfsrryfbthvyglnobhggurveplavpvfznaqg urerfgbsgurvetrareng vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbh ernqlgborurnegoebxra |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:43:46 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, Sure it is Nope, not without the scenario. since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. Yep, and all are detectable, and all have signatures. You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. The scenario has not been defined enough to know if the device will be turned on within the distance of the scanner/other detection device. Random ideas that "something" similar is possible is not same as application in a specific scenario. Detecting electronics devices in general, is it useful? Depends on who you ask The OP is not the only one who wants to ensure no one is able to record conversations, or hear conversations they should not be hearing. We dont know the exact scenario, He gave the scenario. No. A hint, but not a full scenario might include something like what happens if "something" is detected, both the full purpose and result. what the result would be of a positive detection but as above, cell phones and pagers would tend to be caught and are going to be far more common and innocuous than a recording device, though in the former case, the phone may have recording capability too. True enough, but the technology is there to do what is being requested. Now if the OP can afford it, or even obtain it is a different issue. You have not established this. That some fields can be detected, that it can be known if something is running, is not same thing as knowing a digital recorder is running. This difference is quite important in many scenarios because OTHER types of devices are far more common in modern society than digital recorders. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:15:03 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. And what is a common item to circuit boards, IC's, cell phones, pagers, MP3 players, etc. Yes, which is one of the reasons why detection of these won't help, unless ALL such devices are banned which is unlikely... but again, we dont have the specific scenario to consider. There are devices made to detect the presence of semiconductors, and these have been out for ages. And now with the war on terror going on, you would not believe what kind of sensors they are coming up with. I would believe you are taking a random unfounded presumption that someone "could" be possible without supporting evidence, nor consideration of what would be necessary to distinguish this particular device. Minor modifications of some of these units would not be very difficult to detect a mere MP3 in someones pocket. Unfounded speculation. "Maybe" it's easy enough to detect the device when turned off. "Probably" if you were close enough to the device you could even detect that it's turned on. That's a far cry from identification as an MP3 player, let alone one that is recording, vs another mode of operation (like playback, wouldn't it be highly possible someone who has an MP3 player, would have it to play MP3?) But then these would not be cheap either, if you can even get one. Establish that such a device exists at all, that can detect an MP3 player recording, specifically discriminate it from other devices. Nevermind if we can buy it or how much it costs, establish that it can be done at all as so far you have not. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:43:46 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, Sure it is Nope, not without the scenario. Sure it is. since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. Yep, and all are detectable, and all have signatures. You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. The scenario has not been defined enough to know if the device will be turned on within the distance of the scanner/other detection device. To detect semiconducter junctions the operating state of the device being measured is not important. Detecting electronics devices in general, is it useful? Depends on who you ask The OP is not the only one who wants to ensure no one is able to record conversations, or hear conversations they should not be hearing. We dont know the exact scenario, He gave the scenario. No. The scenario was presented with enough detail. what the result would be of a positive detection but as above, cell phones and pagers would tend to be caught and are going to be far more common and innocuous than a recording device, though in the former case, the phone may have recording capability too. True enough, but the technology is there to do what is being requested. Now if the OP can afford it, or even obtain it is a different issue. You have not established this. Your lack of knowledge of the systems involved is not my problem. The technology does exist to do what the person wants. Now how large this equipment is, and how much it costs, and even if it is available to us regular joe blows is something different. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:15:03 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:48:32 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You man there actually is something which will detect MP3 recorders? There are devices that can detect when electronic devices are being used. There are devices that can be made that can detect almost any known material If said mp3 player is made of that material it can be detected. Which is not entirely applicable, since plenty of non-recorders are made of circuit boards, ICs & other discretes, and some plastic. Cell phone and pager are two quite common ones. And what is a common item to circuit boards, IC's, cell phones, pagers, MP3 players, etc. Yes, which is one of the reasons why detection of these won't help, unless ALL such devices are banned which is unlikely... but again, we dont have the specific scenario to consider. Depends on the OP, his office can ban those items in the work place. The point remains they are detectable. There are devices made to detect the presence of semiconductors, and these have been out for ages. And now with the war on terror going on, you would not believe what kind of sensors they are coming up with. Minor modifications of some of these units would not be very difficult to detect a mere MP3 in someones pocket. Unfounded speculation. Nope. But then these would not be cheap either, if you can even get one. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:42:49 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: The point remains they are detectable. You mean the point you never made. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? MP3 players recording? I doubt it, show us even a complete theoretical description of it being possible including the readings from such a demonstration... let alone a purpose built device that exists for this purpose. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:42:49 -0800, "Dana" wrote: The point remains they are detectable. You mean the point you never made. Electronic devices made the point. They exist, you may not be aware of them, but that is your issue. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? Devices are being discriminated by their signature. Various sensors are doing this. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:40:03 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? Devices are being discriminated by their signature. Various sensors are doing this. Do you know how many MP3 players are out there? Now how about the phones that can record? A theory about what might be possible someday, is not same thing as what IS being done today. You seem to be vaguely claiming it's possible without really considering EXACTLY what is necessary. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:37:24 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:42:49 -0800, "Dana" wrote: The point remains they are detectable. You mean the point you never made. Electronic devices made the point. They exist, you may not be aware of them, but that is your issue. It's not my issue to claim detection of different devices proves detection of an MP3 player recording. Rather, it is your burden to be specific with the claim that it's possible by showing even one reproducible example. We have no reason to believe a scenario like the OP has (too vaguely) posed, would allow identification of a device as an MP3 player that is recording. Identifying the existence of "some" kind of device, then a search uncovering this device and a physical examination to determine that it is recording (looking at the screen or lights) is another matter. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:40:03 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? Devices are being discriminated by their signature. Various sensors are doing this. Do you know how many MP3 players are out there? Yeah, so what. There are devices that can detect semiconducter junctions. MP3 players have semiconductor junctions, hence they can be detected. Now how about the phones that can record? They also have semiconductor junctions, hence they can also be detected. A theory about what might be possible someday, is not same thing as what IS being done today. Semiconductor junctions can be detected today. You seem to be vaguely claiming it's possible without really considering EXACTLY what is necessary. Hogwash. You seem not to understand what can be done with electronics. There are some devices that use the priciples of a MRI and shrink it down to a hand held sized device to scan for explosives. Since the compounds in explosives give off a unique signature after being exposed to a strong magnetic field, that signature is then stored in memory. Now your sensor emits a magnetic field, and the reciever looks for the signature of the explosives. So it is only a matter of expanding your signature library, and your receiver can be programmed to look for pretty much anything. This is only one of many new tools that are out. The semiconductor junction detector has been out for around 30 years. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:13:43 -0500, Mitch Crane -three
wrote: max wrote in : On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:22:57 -0500, Mitch Crane -three wrote: Joey wrote in : You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Would an all nude work environment be acceptable? It would make hiding such devices difficult so you wouldn't have to do anything untoward like searching people. You'd be surprised where people can hide things: http://www.dailymotion.com/blog/vide...yuv3g7lzul2w64 rs1iaad00kom8c0ii3&play=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fsus iebright.blogs.com Caution! NSFW! Sure, but I don't think the MP3 recorder would work very well in there, so the point is moot. Don't see why not - it's a solid state device. Disguise a little mic as a labial piercing stud, run the wire up the folds, and it's very unlikely anyone would inspect it closely enough to figure it out, even if it were visible behind the bush. Having the recorder embedded would help reduce what little detectable EMI a low power device like that give off, and the mic wire would only carry audio freqs, which don't transmit very far at those power levels. You just have to think outside the box a bit. max |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:37:24 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:42:49 -0800, "Dana" wrote: The point remains they are detectable. You mean the point you never made. Electronic devices made the point. They exist, you may not be aware of them, but that is your issue. It's not my issue to claim detection of different devices proves detection of an MP3 player recording. I never said it can detect an MP3 player recording. I said it can detect an MP3 player, or pretty much anything electronic. We have no reason to believe a scenario like the OP has (too vaguely) posed, Actually what he needs is a device to scan for electronic devices, and they exist already. How the OP handles the knowledge of such sweeps depends on him. He can either ask for the people to remove all electronic devices, or he can watch what he says. would allow identification of a device as an MP3 player that is recording. Not recording, but its existence. Its existence can be determined, and it does not have to be on, as there are devices that look for semiconductor junctions(pretty much any electronic device that has at least a diode in it). Identifying the existence of "some" kind of device, then a search uncovering this device and a physical examination to determine that it is recording (looking at the screen or lights) is another matter. True, but the OP would know there is some kind of elctronic device on the person that may be capable of recording. How the OP uses that info is up to him. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"max" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:13:43 -0500, Mitch Crane -three wrote: max wrote in : On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:22:57 -0500, Mitch Crane -three wrote: Joey wrote in : You say, "search them physically"? I have to tell you that I don;'t work in the sort of environment where that kind of behaviour is considered acceptable! Would an all nude work environment be acceptable? It would make hiding such devices difficult so you wouldn't have to do anything untoward like searching people. You'd be surprised where people can hide things: http://www.dailymotion.com/blog/vide...yuv3g7lzul2w64 rs1iaad00kom8c0ii3&play=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fsus iebright.blogs.com Caution! NSFW! Sure, but I don't think the MP3 recorder would work very well in there, so the point is moot. Don't see why not - it's a solid state device. Disguise a little mic as a labial piercing stud, run the wire up the folds, and it's very unlikely anyone would inspect it closely enough to figure it out, even if it were visible behind the bush. Having the recorder embedded would help reduce what little detectable EMI a low power device like that give off, and the mic wire would only carry audio freqs, which don't transmit very far at those power levels. You just have to think outside the box a bit. max At which point a cavity search would have to be done:) |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
max wrote in
: Sure, but I don't think the MP3 recorder would work very well in there, so the point is moot. Don't see why not - it's a solid state device. Disguise a little mic as a labial piercing stud, run the wire up the folds, and it's very unlikely anyone would inspect it closely enough to figure it out, even if it were visible behind the bush. Yeah, good point. I never considered an external mic. I guess the nude office will have to ban labial studs. They should also ban scrotal studs in the interest of fairness. -- ybbxvatyvxrnobeantnvayvivatyvxrnurergvpyvfgravatgb neguheyrrerpbeqfznxv atnyylbhesevraqfsrryfbthvyglnobhggurveplavpvfznaqg urerfgbsgurvetrareng vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbh ernqlgborurnegoebxra |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
max wrote in news:kqm0j29vl0c1rtqoc40s41p8mbqmrs62s6@
4ax.com: You just have to think outside the box a bit. By the way, your filthy double entendre was not lost on me. Frankly, I'm shocked and appalled that you'd take a serious discussion and turn it into a forum for your smut humor. -- ybbxvatyvxrnobeantnvayvivatyvxrnurergvpyvfgravatgb neguheyrrerpbeqfznxv atnyylbhesevraqfsrryfbthvyglnobhggurveplavpvfznaqg urerfgbsgurvetrareng vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbh ernqlgborurnegoebxra |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:39:11 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:40:03 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? Devices are being discriminated by their signature. Various sensors are doing this. Do you know how many MP3 players are out there? Yeah, so what. There are devices that can detect semiconducter junctions. MP3 players have semiconductor junctions, hence they can be detected. No, you can detect semiconductor junctions then, but not the identity, nor function, of what larger device you have detected as having semiconductors. Now how about the phones that can record? They also have semiconductor junctions, hence they can also be detected. Again, we are not merely trying to detect some arbitrary substance, it has to be a complete detection that discriminates a recording MP3 player. If all we cared about was that "something" was there, we have no need to consider semiconductor presence at all. A theory about what might be possible someday, is not same thing as what IS being done today. Semiconductor junctions can be detected today. Again, it's pointless. You seem to be vaguely claiming it's possible without really considering EXACTLY what is necessary. Hogwash. You seem not to understand what can be done with electronics. You seem unable to describe any way to discriminate the very thing this thread is about. There are some devices that use the priciples of a MRI and shrink it down to a hand held sized device to scan for explosives. Ok, but again, it doesn't tell us the purpose of common items like plastic, or semiconductors. Explosives aren't going to be used in practically everything that plugs into a wall or takes a battery. Since the compounds in explosives give off a unique signature after being exposed to a strong magnetic field, that signature is then stored in memory. Maybe some, but not all will give off a magnetic field. It doesn't matter though, there is nothing in particular in an MP3 player that would discriminate it from a cell phone. Is it not obvious to you that common items people are allowed to have, can't be false detected? Perhaps whoever is subject to this search is first told to empty all pockets of such things, but as already written, we'd need to know such a scenario to delve into this kinds of tangents. Now your sensor emits a magnetic field, and the reciever looks for the signature of the explosives. Great, if a recording MP3 player is made out of explosives. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between random non-applicable information and the crucial details necessary to discriminate a recording MP3 player. So it is only a matter of expanding your signature library, and your receiver can be programmed to look for pretty much anything. Nope, and you might as well stop pretending you know about this stuff because you have pretty well given yourself away. There is no one signature an MP3 player would have, it's not made of one unique material and there are myriad different players with different % of several materials, but practically all of them are commonplace, unlike explosives. This is only one of many new tools that are out. The semiconductor junction detector has been out for around 30 years. Show one recording MP3 player having been detected like this, anyone who claims they have a specific device that does it and can explain how- because it sure as heck isn't using a signature like with explosives. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:45:56 -0800, "Dana"
wrote: It's not my issue to claim detection of different devices proves detection of an MP3 player recording. I never said it can detect an MP3 player recording. I said it can detect an MP3 player, or pretty much anything electronic. The thread is about detecting an MP3 player. Show us it can be done, regardless of whether recording or not. It would have to be discriminated from other devices, and DEPENDING ON SCENARIO, from a fair distance and continuously, else the person carrying it just turns it on when needed. We have no reason to believe a scenario like the OP has (too vaguely) posed, Actually what he needs is a device to scan for electronic devices, and they exist already. How the OP handles the knowledge of such sweeps depends on him. I have never claimed "electronic devices" can't be detected. It's not enough, electronic devices are everywhere! It'll have to discriminate, unless you're in a 3rd world country where they can just go ahead and shoot anyone they suspect- so there was no need for a scanner at all. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
On 14 Oct 2006, kony wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:37:24 -0800, "Dana" wrote: [...] It's not my issue to claim detection of different devices proves detection of an MP3 player recording. Rather, it is your burden to be specific with the claim that it's possible by showing even one reproducible example. We have no reason to believe a scenario like the OP has (too vaguely) posed, would allow identification of a device as an MP3 player that is recording. Identifying the existence of "some" kind of device, then a search uncovering this device and a physical examination to determine that it is recording (looking at the screen or lights) is another matter. I can clarify whatever you are unsure about if it helps. |
How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
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How detect if MP3 player is recording in your room? [OT]
"kony" wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:39:11 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:40:03 -0800, "Dana" wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:37:33 -0800, "Dana" wrote: You have not established that the signature (difference) of such a device can be discriminated from a different device. It is being done today. What "it"? Devices are being discriminated by their signature. Various sensors are doing this. Do you know how many MP3 players are out there? Yeah, so what. There are devices that can detect semiconducter junctions. MP3 players have semiconductor junctions, hence they can be detected. No, you can detect semiconductor junctions then And mp3 players have semiconducter junctions, hence they can be detected. Now how about the phones that can record? They also have semiconductor junctions, hence they can also be detected. A theory about what might be possible someday, is not same thing as what IS being done today. Semiconductor junctions can be detected today. Again, it's pointless. No, it will tell the OP that electronic devices that can may be able to record his converstaionare present. You seem to be vaguely claiming it's possible without really considering EXACTLY what is necessary. Hogwash. You seem not to understand what can be done with electronics. There are some devices that use the priciples of a MRI and shrink it down to a hand held sized device to scan for explosives. Ok, but again, it doesn't tell us the purpose of common items like plastic, or semiconductors. Explosives aren't going to be used in practically everything that plugs into a wall or takes a battery. But the signatures of plastic, batterues can be put into a library and the scanner will then alert you of there presence. Since the compounds in explosives give off a unique signature after being exposed to a strong magnetic field, that signature is then stored in memory. Maybe some, but not all will give off a magnetic field. It is not the magnetic field that is being detected, it is the signature emitted when exposed to a magnetic field. IE when the molocules return to a normal state, they emit a signature. Now your sensor emits a magnetic field, and the reciever looks for the signature of the explosives. So it is only a matter of expanding your signature library, and your receiver can be programmed to look for pretty much anything. Nope, Yep This is only one of many new tools that are out. The semiconductor junction detector has been out for around 30 years. |
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