"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. ..

"RHF" wrote in message
m...
TELAMON,
JFK's "Call" was NOT Limited to the Peace Corps; but to
Service of All Kinds to This Nation to Make It Greater.

+ To Get Involved in Government Civil Service.
+ To Join the Military
+ To Become a Teacher, Nurse, Doctor, ETC
+ To Become a Fireman, Policeman, Public Service Worker
+ To Volunteer in Your Communities - Helping Others
+ To Volunteer for the Peace Corps, VISTA, AmeriCorps
+ YES - Even To Get Involved into Politics

For Every American to Actively Work to Build A Better America [.]

I notice these are all government paid (read Welfare) positions! Was
there
ever a shortage of people with their hand out?



You have a very strange point of view. Since when are government jobs
(someone has to do them) "welfare"? Since when is volunteerism paid at all?

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
"Roger Gt" wrote in message
"RHF" wrote in message
TELAMON,
JFK's "Call" was NOT Limited to the Peace Corps; but to
Service of All Kinds to This Nation to Make It Greater.

+ To Get Involved in Government Civil Service.
+ To Join the Military
+ To Become a Teacher, Nurse, Doctor, ETC
+ To Become a Fireman, Policeman, Public Service Worker
+ To Volunteer in Your Communities - Helping Others
+ To Volunteer for the Peace Corps, VISTA, AmeriCorps
+ YES - Even To Get Involved into Politics

For Every American to Actively Work to Build A Better America [.]

I notice these are all government paid (read Welfare) positions! Was
there
ever a shortage of people with their hand out?

You have a very strange point of view. Since when are government jobs
(someone has to do them) "welfare"? Since when is volunteerism paid at
all?

You also have a very strange point of view!
Government jobs have always been the root of welfare.

(When the public welfare was reformed then President Clinton ordered
thousands put on the federal payroll to "Employ them" Elevator operators
for the Pentagon, for automatic self serve elevators. etc.)

IE: Position paid by the taxpayers without responsibility for the outcome or
result.
Show me anyone in any government position who is held responsible for the
damage they do, or failures to perform! Never happens, or rather so
rarely it is a major news event, when was the last time you heard of a
government employee held responsible!

None of the positions listed are actually Volunteers! All are paid,
although some are called compensation. Pay, Salary = Compensation. No
difference.

There used to be volunteer fire men, and other "Public Service
positions, but not much anymore, the Unions are using these positions to
extract moneys to enhance the political position they uniquely espouse!
That THEY OWN these positions!

"RHF" wrote in message BA,

I guess what 'roger' does not understand was that JFK was calling for
the American People to be "Committed" to a Life's Work in any form of
Public Service. YES - These were JOBS and most of the Volunteer
Programs have their Benefits. But... JFK was asking more of
individuals; then simply doing a 'job'. Things like a bring a Passion
to their Work. A Desire to make this Nation a Better Place for All
the People. Giving Back To America.

Since you said "I guess" you acknowledge you ignorance.

None of the comments you appended,
from you own questionable bias has
anything to do with what I said and do
not answer the question ask.

The office of the president is a distractive function,
the speeches quoted were political in nature.
Not in keeping with the proper performance of his office.

Would he have been reelected?
I wonder.
He did reduce taxes, possibly for the wrong reasons,
we will never know.
He was not a deity, nor an exceptional man.
His fame came from being assonated!
Not a satisfactory way to make a mark in history.
IMO

As for 'roger' last three lines:
* Do you suppose JFK was shot for mouthing off?
* If he had not said those things, would he still be alive?
* Would he have been elected for a second term?

'roger' evidently subscribes to the "False" Idea of the OWLES.
That it is their Duty-In-Life to Tear Down America in Words and Deads.
To Attack America's Dead Heros and Public Leaders like JFK.

The only attack was yours. Unwarented and unnecessary.
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!

I subscribe to the Readers Digest.
Never heard of OWLES.
I am a thirteenth generation American,
a veteran of the US ARMY 1st Division.
I do not tolerate insults from those speaking from ignorance.

wabfh ~ RHF
= = = We Are Better For Him (JFK).

I also do not subscribe to a religious following to a figure who contributed
little to the strengths of the Construction and the limited powers the
Federal government has been permitted. Only the founders deserve such
reverence.

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. ..
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!


You should read more about his service in WWII.. perhaps the book PT-109?
He was a war hero, more than we can say about our last two presidents
(including the current one).

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. ..
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!

You should read more about his service in WWII.. perhaps the book PT-109?
He was a war hero, more than we can say about our last two presidents
(including the current one).

It was his speaches I addressed, not his service record.
He did indeed loose his ship to a Japanese
Warship and managed to save the crew.
I have heard the story, and seen the movie.

But being assinated did not make him a hero.

Clinton, avoided service and was largely disrespected for it.
Bush (current) served in a manner that was not sterling, but he did serve.
I can't say I approve of either's conduce relative to the military,
but President Bush is at least well liked!

Again, this has nothing to do with the question I ask!

No more nits....

roger, Roger. ROGER !

"Would he (JFK) have been reelected ?"

Humbled by your Pedigree of being a Thirteenth Generation American.

And Speaking Out of My (simple mind: I Love My Country) Ignorance.

I would have to Answer Your Question: Most Certainly YES !

TBL: JFK would have been Re-Elected [.]

ggmtw... ~ RHF
= = = God Grant Me the Wisdom . . .
..
..
= = = "Roger Gt"
= = = wrote in message ...
"RHF" wrote in message BA,

I guess what 'roger' does not understand was that JFK was calling for
the American People to be "Committed" to a Life's Work in any form of
Public Service. YES - These were JOBS and most of the Volunteer
Programs have their Benefits. But... JFK was asking more of
individuals; then simply doing a 'job'. Things like a bring a Passion
to their Work. A Desire to make this Nation a Better Place for All
the People. Giving Back To America.

Since you said "I guess" you acknowledge you ignorance.

None of the comments you appended,
from you own questionable bias has
anything to do with what I said and do
not answer the question ask.

The office of the president is a distractive function,
the speeches quoted were political in nature.
Not in keeping with the proper performance of his office.

Would he have been reelected?
I wonder.
He did reduce taxes, possibly for the wrong reasons,
we will never know.
He was not a deity, nor an exceptional man.
His fame came from being assonated!
Not a satisfactory way to make a mark in history.
IMO

As for 'roger' last three lines:
* Do you suppose JFK was shot for mouthing off?
* If he had not said those things, would he still be alive?
* Would he have been elected for a second term?

'roger' evidently subscribes to the "False" Idea of the OWLES.
That it is their Duty-In-Life to Tear Down America in Words and Deads.
To Attack America's Dead Heros and Public Leaders like JFK.

The only attack was yours. Unwarented and unnecessary.
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!

I subscribe to the Readers Digest.
Never heard of OWLES.
I am a thirteenth generation American,
a veteran of the US ARMY 1st Division.
I do not tolerate insults from those speaking from ignorance.

wabfh ~ RHF
= = = We Are Better For Him (JFK).

I also do not subscribe to a religious following to a figure who contributed
little to the strengths of the Construction and the limited powers the
Federal government has been permitted. Only the founders deserve such
reverence.

Sorry for top-posting Roger, but I wanted to say "thank you" for your
having been in the US Military.

Salute!!! (to you)

Dave
KZ1O

Roger Gt wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message BA,

I guess what 'roger' does not understand was that JFK was calling for
the American People to be "Committed" to a Life's Work in any form of
Public Service. YES - These were JOBS and most of the Volunteer
Programs have their Benefits. But... JFK was asking more of
individuals; then simply doing a 'job'. Things like a bring a Passion
to their Work. A Desire to make this Nation a Better Place for All
the People. Giving Back To America.


Since you said "I guess" you acknowledge you ignorance.

None of the comments you appended,
from you own questionable bias has
anything to do with what I said and do
not answer the question ask.

The office of the president is a distractive function,
the speeches quoted were political in nature.
Not in keeping with the proper performance of his office.

Would he have been reelected?
I wonder.
He did reduce taxes, possibly for the wrong reasons,
we will never know.
He was not a deity, nor an exceptional man.
His fame came from being assonated!
Not a satisfactory way to make a mark in history.
IMO


As for 'roger' last three lines:
* Do you suppose JFK was shot for mouthing off?
* If he had not said those things, would he still be alive?
* Would he have been elected for a second term?


'roger' evidently subscribes to the "False" Idea of the OWLES.
That it is their Duty-In-Life to Tear Down America in Words and Deads.
To Attack America's Dead Heros and Public Leaders like JFK.


The only attack was yours. Unwarented and unnecessary.
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!

I subscribe to the Readers Digest.
Never heard of OWLES.
I am a thirteenth generation American,
a veteran of the US ARMY 1st Division.
I do not tolerate insults from those speaking from ignorance.


wabfh ~ RHF
= = = We Are Better For Him (JFK).


I also do not subscribe to a religious following to a figure who contributed
little to the strengths of the Construction and the limited powers the
Federal government has been permitted. Only the founders deserve such
reverence.





--
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you MUST include this in the subject line:

YKXWBSX7I6 01/03/2004

(without that string in the subject, your
message will be deleted, unread)

Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,
--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

JMO,

-- Stinger

"RHF" wrote in message
m...
roger, Roger. ROGER !

"Would he (JFK) have been reelected ?"

Humbled by your Pedigree of being a Thirteenth Generation American.

And Speaking Out of My (simple mind: I Love My Country) Ignorance.

I would have to Answer Your Question: Most Certainly YES !

TBL: JFK would have been Re-Elected [.]

ggmtw... ~ RHF
= = = God Grant Me the Wisdom . . .
.
.
= = = "Roger Gt"
= = = wrote in message
...
"RHF" wrote in message BA,

I guess what 'roger' does not understand was that JFK was calling for
the American People to be "Committed" to a Life's Work in any form of
Public Service. YES - These were JOBS and most of the Volunteer
Programs have their Benefits. But... JFK was asking more of
individuals; then simply doing a 'job'. Things like a bring a Passion
to their Work. A Desire to make this Nation a Better Place for All
the People. Giving Back To America.

Since you said "I guess" you acknowledge you ignorance.

None of the comments you appended,
from you own questionable bias has
anything to do with what I said and do
not answer the question ask.

The office of the president is a distractive function,
the speeches quoted were political in nature.
Not in keeping with the proper performance of his office.

Would he have been reelected?
I wonder.
He did reduce taxes, possibly for the wrong reasons,
we will never know.
He was not a deity, nor an exceptional man.
His fame came from being assonated!
Not a satisfactory way to make a mark in history.
IMO

As for 'roger' last three lines:
* Do you suppose JFK was shot for mouthing off?
* If he had not said those things, would he still be alive?
* Would he have been elected for a second term?

'roger' evidently subscribes to the "False" Idea of the OWLES.
That it is their Duty-In-Life to Tear Down America in Words and Deads.
To Attack America's Dead Heros and Public Leaders like JFK.

The only attack was yours. Unwarented and unnecessary.
JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!

I subscribe to the Readers Digest.
Never heard of OWLES.
I am a thirteenth generation American,
a veteran of the US ARMY 1st Division.
I do not tolerate insults from those speaking from ignorance.

wabfh ~ RHF
= = = We Are Better For Him (JFK).

I also do not subscribe to a religious following to a figure who
contributed
little to the strengths of the Construction and the limited powers the
Federal government has been permitted. Only the founders deserve such
reverence.

Brenda Ann wrote:

"Roger Gt" wrote in message
. ..

JFK was not and is not a Hero! He is DEAD!



You should read more about his service in WWII.. perhaps the book PT-109?
He was a war hero, more than we can say about our last two presidents
(including the current one).




I did.

You can do so also by doing a google using the search terms

jfk pt-109 incompetent

Just stick with the mainline links, such as the one from NBC, or from
the guy who was on the PT boat with him.

And to his credit, he got the USA going into space. I think he was a
good guy, and he had a healthy libido. He was also smart enough to know
that lowering taxes stimulates the economy. Democrats now have gone
far, far away from JFK's Democrats. That is why they are going the way
of the dodo.

And now, to be in line with the intent of this newsgroup (speaking of
space), does anyone here use azimuth-only antennas for satellite use?
I'm trying to, and ZERO success. I hear them, but so far, nada. Tips
please? Followup here, or reply directly (but read the PureMail message
at the bottom here!!).

From what I can tell these days, there are only a couple dozen guys
actually using the sats. True?

All the best, and 73,
Dave
KZ1O

--
This file is PureMail protected. To reply to the sender,
you MUST include this in the subject line:

YKXWBSX7I6 01/03/2004

(without that string in the subject, your
message will be deleted, unread)

Roger Gt wrote:

[JFK stuff]

But being assinated did not make him a hero.

Correct. Being "assinated" would have made him a homo. Which he was
not, by any means. He had sex with more women than either Bill or
Hillary wanted to.

Clinton, avoided service and was largely disrespected for it.
Bush (current) served in a manner that was not sterling, but he did serve.

How about you? Did you "serve" more or less than either Bush Sr. or
Bush Jr.? OR did you "serve" as much as Clinton?

The FAQ says there should be a radio theme to the posting, so:

Question: here in NH, I've been keeping my scanner handy when the prez
contenders come to visit. Anyone else doing so?

Dave
KZ1O

DB,

Ditto That!

Roger, Thank You for Your Service to Our Country.

A Christmas and New Years
* * * THANK YOU ! * * *
To All Our Men and Women
Serving in & out of Uniform
through-out the World;
including here in the Homeland.

May they All Be Home by Next Christmas - amen, Amen. AMEN !

~ RHF
..
..
= = = Dave Bushong
= = = wrote in message et...
Sorry for top-posting Roger, but I wanted to say "thank you" for your
having been in the US Military.

Salute!!! (to you)

Dave
KZ1O


..

"Stinger" wrote:

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk
anti-war movement that persists (though
times have changed) to this day.


A "knee-jerk" anti-war movement? The Vietnam war lasted 15 years (25 years
if you count the advisors sent in the 50's), about ten years longer than
WWII. The war started while I was a young child playing with toys in my
backyard and I was able to join the military as a young adult before the war
ended. Any response in the latter years of that war (the period with the
most wide-spread peace movement) could hardly be described as "knee-jerk."


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Please gentlemen, it's been along time since I was in the service.
My son was in Desert Storm. He is my Hero!
I served under President Eisenhower.

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!



"RHF" wrote in message
om...
DB,

Ditto That!

Roger, Thank You for Your Service to Our Country.

A Christmas and New Years
* * * THANK YOU ! * * *
To All Our Men and Women
Serving in & out of Uniform
through-out the World;
including here in the Homeland.

May they All Be Home by Next Christmas - amen, Amen. AMEN !

~ RHF
.
.
= = = Dave Bushong
= = = wrote in message
et...
Sorry for top-posting Roger, but I wanted to say "thank you" for your
having been in the US Military.

Salute!!! (to you)

Dave
KZ1O


.

"Stinger" wrote in message . ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

"CQScanman" wrote in message
"Stinger" wrote in message

snip
What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

The men who were there know what happened!
With civilians directing the operations who were
more intent on body count that control of a territory.
Take if one day, stop, do a body count,
retake the same territory tomorrow.

My brother (a Marine) spent two terms in 'nam!
I bet him the policy was to maintain a status quo,
not victory, He argued that our military could kick
their butts. I agreed and pointed out that the Military
was not given the go ahead to act in a reasonable military manner,
it was all politics! After he returned, he bought me a steak dinner.
(I provided him a house while he finished at the University)

Your language and manners need mending sir!

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.

You should take our own advice!

I am Not a "Little Fella" and I DO know what I am talking about!
The Anti war movement attacked the Veterans when they returned
and ridiculed them.
Demonstrators and draft dodgers were uniformly COWARDS!

No, demonstrators assured defeat, and the deaths of thousands of
Vietnamese who didn't get out!

Three men in my Brothers outfit died in the fighting.
Many more suffered from the drugs made so plentiful for them to
fight the depression of the conditions they were forced to be in.

One Marine squad on a flanking patrol destroyed an entire
Vietcong infantry company in twenty minute fire fight.
All the Marines involved were wounded, seven of the nine died of their
wounds.
I personally knew one of the survivors He is now a police officer.
That squad killed 135 of the enemy.

Politicians should never be allowed near a battle field unless in Chains!

As one who was there, the administration put so many "Uhh Uhh's" on the
rules of engagement that we had no chance of winning the war. Winning the
battle, and fighting with the bravest guys you ever saw, made no difference
when Macnamara and Johnson boasted that we "couldn't bomb a ****house with
out Whitehouse approval."

Battle is a fluid situation, you have to improvise. When you first have to
check back with the White House before bombing anybody you loose. Why the
hell didn't they bomb the hell out of Hanoi? This is where the Russians were
bringing in all the supplies to support Uncle Ho.

Johnson was scared we may hit a Russian ship, or bring the Chinese into the
mix. I was all for nuking the whole damn bunch.

So, the writer that stated we did not want to win is anything but a "stupid
son of a bitch" , he has an excellent handle on the realities of the
political side of the conflict.


"CQScanman" wrote in message
m...
"Stinger" wrote in message
. ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the
presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace
Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the
family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

I'll tell you what I mean, "You stupid sonofabitch."

I mean that thousands of good American soldiers were wasted as cannon
fodder, betrayed by LBJ and his cronies. I was there, jackass.

We stopped bombing Hanoi, etc. while arguing for years on the shape of the
table they would be using at the peace talks. Meanwhile my buddies were
getting killed.

-- Stinger

" wrote in message
m...
"Stinger" wrote in message
. ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the
presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace
Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the
family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

No, Dwight, I agree with your assessment of the Vietnam war.

The knee-jerk anti-war movement I'm speaking about is the one currently
hampering our efforts to eradicate terrorism, that is funded to a large part
by nostalgic nam-era activists.

-- Stinger

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Stinger" wrote:

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk
anti-war movement that persists (though
times have changed) to this day.


A "knee-jerk" anti-war movement? The Vietnam war lasted 15 years (25
years
if you count the advisors sent in the 50's), about ten years longer than
WWII. The war started while I was a young child playing with toys in my
backyard and I was able to join the military as a young adult before the
war
ended. Any response in the latter years of that war (the period with the
most wide-spread peace movement) could hardly be described as "knee-jerk."


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) The Anti war movement attacked the
Veterans when they returned and ridiculed
them. (snip)


That's a myth, Roger. Soldiers heading for Vietnam flew out on military
aircraft departing from military bases and returned from Vietnam on military
aircraft landing at military bases. The soldiers returning from Vietnam were
very rarely close enough to civilian demonstrators to even be attacked or
ridiculed. I joined the military in 1970 and traveled, in uniform,
throughout the country to various training facilities that year. I was never
attacked or ridiculed. Instead, the vast majority, in all age groups, were
friendly to me and respectful of the job our military was doing. Americans
had doubts about that war, but it was not directed towards the soldiers.


(snip) Politicians should never be allowed
near a battle field unless in Chains!


And that sentence shows your lack of understanding of the wider
implications of that war. We had just ended a major conflict with the
Chinese in Korea just a few years earlier - a conflict we didn't win. That
same China now had nuclear weapons, an even larger military, and was not
exactly thrilled that we attacking another of it's neighbors. A major
escalation of the Vietnam war, which would have been necessary to win it,
would have certainly caused China to openly join the conflict, with
potentially devastating results for this country. Our government did the
best it could do, within the constraints of the realities of the times.

As for the soldiers, many of the things they were complaining about (the
operation tempo, shortages of food and supplies, and so on) were the result
of faults within the military, not the civilian government. And, since the
civilian government rarely selected the daily targets for patrols or
missions (the civilian government set the wider strategic goals, leaving the
daily activities to the military leaders there), many of the screw-ups in
those daily activities were the result of military leaders also. In the end,
the military just used the civilian government as a convenient scapegoat to
hide their own screw-ups and failures whenever possible.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) The Anti war movement attacked the
Veterans when they returned and ridiculed
them. (snip)


That's a myth, Roger. Soldiers heading for Vietnam flew out on military
aircraft departing from military bases and returned from Vietnam on
military
aircraft landing at military bases. The soldiers returning from Vietnam
were
very rarely close enough to civilian demonstrators to even be attacked or
ridiculed. I joined the military in 1970 and traveled, in uniform,
throughout the country to various training facilities that year. I was
never
attacked or ridiculed. Instead, the vast majority, in all age groups, were
friendly to me and respectful of the job our military was doing. Americans
had doubts about that war, but it was not directed towards the soldiers.

I don't doubt that the majority were polite and respectful. It is in the
nature of most patriotic Americans to respect the Military service, with
many being drafted and understanding the nature of the task!
And I am glad you had it easy, there was no excuse for the unruly behavior.

BUT 'This' MYTH I saw myself, watched repeated and got involved in breaking
up a few or the attacks!
They did not occur at return points for the military, but at schools when
the Vets would enroll and attend, and sometimes in other groups when some
one identified a member of the military in the immediate area. Sometimes it
was verbal, but I saw at least twenty fist fights. The worst one was when a
gang of about fifty demonstrators tried to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration was "shutting down" the school.. It was
only heated discussion, until some jackass decided that since the Jar-Head
wouldn't do what they told him they would restrain him. He was gentle, no
fatalities, fifteen taken for medical attention. NEVER JUMP a mud Marine!
The crowd scattered when he started breaking bones. Arms and Collar bones
break pretty easily and put unruly people down. Since I was older and
dressed in a suit I was identified as staff, funny, since I was only a
sophomore, but I came over to the school from work, I had to wear a suit in
my job! Because of this I helped cool off some other confrontations that
might have escalated into violence. Couldn't get the police or school
security to do anything, they got scarce at the sight of a crowd!

My brother told me that while he was flying home (civilian air lines) he
encountered people who spit on him. He avoided them. He returned to Vietnam
for another tour before he got out.

(snip) Politicians should never be allowed
near a battle field unless in Chains!

And that sentence shows your lack of understanding of the wider
implications of that war. We had just ended a major conflict with the
Chinese in Korea just a few years earlier - a conflict we didn't win. That
same China now had nuclear weapons, an even larger military, and was not
exactly thrilled that we attacking another of it's neighbors. A major
escalation of the Vietnam war, which would have been necessary to win it,
would have certainly caused China to openly join the conflict, with
potentially devastating results for this country. Our government did the
best it could do, within the constraints of the realities of the times.

Never jump to conclusions without all the facts. There may be nothing there
to land on.
The theory that China would have joined the war was never a factor, except
in the eyes of the peaceniks since the Chinese WERE FINANCING the war!!!
They also supplied most of the Munitions used! They had whole divisions in
Korea! There were Chinese Military Advisors we captured and released in the
Field. The Marines were ordered NOT to take Chinese prisoners.

BUT civilian politicos are not Generals, lacking the training and skills
required in warfare, and often have wrong headed motivations. I am very
well educated on the political scene of the time, and My job was to design
weapons systems for use in the battle, or I would have been in the military
then. I had been out ten years when the heavy fighting began. (reserves)

As for the soldiers, many of the things they were complaining about (the
operation tempo, shortages of food and supplies, and so on) were the
result
of faults within the military, not the civilian government. And, since the
civilian government rarely selected the daily targets for patrols or
missions (the civilian government set the wider strategic goals, leaving
the
daily activities to the military leaders there), many of the screw-ups in
those daily activities were the result of military leaders also. In the
end,
the military just used the civilian government as a convenient scapegoat
to
hide their own screw-ups and failures whenever possible.

There was a change of our tactics due to the change in the warfare tactics
used in Vietnam, no question! And in all wars there are screw-ups. Some of
which cause casualties. BUT interference by non military government
personal was a major factor in the length of the conflict and the level of
losses we sustained.

All Soldiers complain, even when there is nothing real to complain about.
It's the nature of the Job and the pressure on the individual.

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) They did not occur at return points
for the military, but at schools when the
Vets would enroll and attend, and
sometimes in other groups when some
one identified a member of the military in
the immediate area. (snip)


Sorry, I don't buy that either. I've been a veteran for 30 years and my
wife is a disabled veteran. We've attended school with many veterans, attend
veterans events throughout each year, and both have been members of veterans
organizations for at least the last 20 years. Throughout all that, we've
never met a veteran yet who has said he or she personally was spit on or
attacked. Instead, these claims most often come from those who were not
directly involved with the military at the time, and almost always involve a
third party ("I knew a guy who said..."). This is the stuff myths, not
facts, are made of.


(snip) I saw myself, watched repeated
and got involved in breaking up a few
or the attacks! The worst one was when
a gang of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going to class
because the demonstration was "shutting
down" the school.. It was only heated
discussion, until some jackass decided
that since the Jar-Head wouldn't do what
they told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for
medical attention. NEVER JUMP a
mud Marine! The crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones. (snip)


When and where was this? A violent incident like that (fifteen injured,
broken bones, and so on) should easily be verifiable through newspaper
accounts of the time.


My brother told me that while he was flying
home (civilian air lines) he encountered
people who spit on him. (snip)


Really? Which civilian airlines flew into the Vietnam war zone? Which
airlines allowed passengers to spit on other passengers?


Never jump to conclusions without all
the facts. There may be nothing there
to land on. The theory that China would
have joined the war was never a factor,
except in the eyes of the peaceniks since
the Chinese WERE FINANCING the
war!!! (snip)


The possibility of China openingly joining the conflict was a major factor
in decision making of the time. China was obviously supporting the North
Vietnamese, but that is vastly different from what I said ("an esculation of
the conflict would have caused China to *openly join* the conflict"). An
open conflict with China would have led to several million Chinese soldiers
flooding into Vietnam to fight our soldiers directly, and may have even led
to nuclear warfare between China and the USA. Only a darn fool would have
ignored that possibility (yet some military leaders did actually want to
ignore the possibility - our civilian government was wise enough not to).


BUT civilian politicos are not Generals,
lacking the training and skills required
in warfare, and often have wrong
headed motivations. (snip)

BUT interference by non military
government personal was a major factor
in the length of the conflict and the level
of losses we sustained.


And Generals lack the knowledge and skills to judge the wider political
implications of a conflict. They also don't have a mandate from the people
of this country, a Constitutional mandate, to make decisions that could
impact all Americans. The elected President is Commander in Chief of the
military and I expect that Commander to command and the soldiers (including
Generals) to obey. Anyone who has a problem with that should consider
relocating to a country controlled by a military - this country and it's
military is controlled by an elected civilian government.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Sorry, this can go no further, you CHOSE not to believe
anything you like, but I was there at the incidents described.
Perhaps it was a local phenomena, we were told otherwise.
The Media would cover Demonstrations, but never showed
the violence! I believe many demonstrations were staged! (Phony)

Your opinions are yours to hold dear.
My memories are painful reminders that it is not a perfect world.

I did not say My brother was on a civilian airline in a war zone.
That was your error!
It happened when he boarded a flight at SFO on his way to PHX!
BTW: He doesn't talk about it with strangers either, not knowing
what to expect as a reaction. You clearly have a difficulty
understanding what I have written, probably due to the wide gulf
between our experiences. I understand.

I do not have an obligation to explain or convince you.
Also I do not care to burst your bubble.
Or to break your rose colored glasses. So I will not continue,
didn't meant to get sucked into this line of discussion anyway.
The direction this has taken is not in the topic of the radio group,
and I am leaving the group since it has produced nothing of value
or interest to me.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) They did not occur at return points
for the military, but at schools when the
Vets would enroll and attend, and
sometimes in other groups when some
one identified a member of the military in
the immediate area. (snip)
Sorry, I don't buy that either.
snip
I've been a veteran for 30 years

And your experience is all you know. I Understand!
That is my perspective as well!

Throughout all that, we've
never met a veteran yet who has said he or she personally was spit on or
attacked. Instead, these claims most often come from those who were not
directly involved with the military at the time, and almost always involve
a
third party ("I knew a guy who said..."). This is the stuff myths, not
facts, are made of.

I suppose we have never met, at least in person.
I was in the reserves, working in military related work, and witnessed the
events personally.
BTW: Myth = one definition, an old story where the origin is not known....
like the Bible! (No author credited)


(snip) I saw myself, watched repeated
and got involved in breaking up a few
of the attacks! The worst one was when
a gang of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going to class
because the demonstration was "shutting
down" the school.. It was only heated
discussion, until some jackass decided
that since the Jar-Head wouldn't do what
they told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for
medical attention. NEVER JUMP a
mud Marine! The crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones. (snip)

When and where was this? A violent incident like that (fifteen injured,
broken bones, and so on) should easily be verifiable through newspaper
accounts of the time.

There have been auto accidents in California with over a hundred cars
involved, you heard how many were hurt and the outcome of these accidents of
course!
I don't know where you would see it, the school handled it in their clinic
and I didn't see any press or TV about it locally. I do not know why
because I would have thought it was big news!
A broken wrist two broken collar bones, and lots of bruises and a couple of
black eyes didn't seem so big. There were more hurt in a fight after the end
of season football game!
However the Demonstration got almost a whole page! But why would you
believe the news papers, with known bias, and not an eye witness? Not to
good on jury duty to ignore direct testimony. But there is no trial. And I
decline to testify further.

My brother told me that while he was flying
home (civilian air lines) he encountered
people who spit on him. (snip)

Really? Which civilian airlines flew into the Vietnam war zone? Which
airlines allowed passengers to spit on other passengers?

See above.... I think it was Delta from SFO to PHX!

Never jump to conclusions without all
the facts. There may be nothing there
to land on. The theory that China would
have joined the war was never a factor,
except in the eyes of the peaceniks since
the Chinese WERE FINANCING the
war!!! (snip)

The possibility of China opening joining the conflict was a major factor
in decision making of the time. China was obviously supporting the North
Vietnamese, but that is vastly different from what I said ("an escalation
of
the conflict would have caused China to *openly join* the conflict"). An
open conflict with China would have led to several million Chinese
soldiers
flooding into Vietnam to fight our soldiers directly, and may have even
led
to nuclear warfare between China and the USA. Only a darn fool would have
ignored that possibility (yet some military leaders did actually want to
ignore the possibility - our civilian government was wise enough not to).

Thank you for clarifying what you meant to say, I didn't understand the
point as more than what was originally stated.
Well they didn't ignore it, did they?

BUT civilian politicos are not Generals,
lacking the training and skills required
in warfare, and often have wrong
headed motivations. (snip)

BUT interference by non military
government personal was a major factor
in the length of the conflict and the level
of losses we sustained.

And Generals lack the knowledge and skills to judge the wider political
implications of a conflict. They also don't have a mandate from the people
of this country, a Constitutional mandate, to make decisions that could
impact all Americans. The elected President is Commander in Chief of the
military and I expect that Commander to command and the soldiers
(including
Generals) to obey. Anyone who has a problem with that should consider
relocating to a country controlled by a military - this country and it's
military is controlled by an elected civilian government.

You state the obvious as if you have a problem believing it.
Why if Generals lack this magically unique knowledge
are they sometimes elected to the office of President?
Like for example, Washington, Grant, Eisenhower, etc!
I respect your opinion, though I do not agree with much of it.
Why do you believe you have the right to suggest that
a citizen of this country should leave because they disagree with you?
(Rhetorical, I AM dropping this group.)

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...



(snip) I saw myself, watched repeated
and got involved in breaking up a few
or the attacks! The worst one was when
a gang of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going to class
because the demonstration was "shutting
down" the school.. It was only heated
discussion, until some jackass decided
that since the Jar-Head wouldn't do what
they told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for
medical attention. NEVER JUMP a
mud Marine! The crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones. (snip)


When and where was this? A violent incident like that (fifteen injured,
broken bones, and so on) should easily be verifiable through newspaper
accounts of the time.


Not to get caught up in this, rather a comment. I can't say if/who/when/
where someone got spat upon, but I
could BELIEVE that one of those long-haired, granny-
glasses drippy-hippy could have been severely injured
if he tried such a caper. If any of those cowardly, "peace"
niks had jumped upon, or spat upon one of our Marines,
then I would supported him, encouraged him, urged him,
or HELPED him to put on an old fashioned ***whippin' that SOB would not
soon forget! And if any bones got
broken, particularly of those pot smoking, #$%^&%$#@, then all the better!






My brother told me that while he was flying
home (civilian air lines) he encountered
people who spit on him. (snip)


Really? Which civilian airlines flew into the Vietnam war zone? Which
airlines allowed passengers to spit on other passengers?

Then he'd have MY a** to whup if he pulled such a caper and spit on me,
'cause being rather a large fella
with something of a temper, I'd have stomped a mudhole
in his butt he'd not forget. The airlines wouldn't have had
to've "protected" me; I'd have attempted to take care of it myself. Now,
much older and mellower, but still in pretty good health, I'd think a bit
more about getting into an altercation. When I was 21-22? Uh-unh! I'd have
smacked hell out of him without a second thought.
Hehe! Matter of fact, I GOT into a few fights in those
days. LOL!

I don't remember hearing personally of spitting incidents,
only of vague reports of such. I only know what *I* would have done!~


73


Jerry

Never jump to conclusions without all
the facts. There may be nothing there
to land on. The theory that China would
have joined the war was never a factor,
except in the eyes of the peaceniks since
the Chinese WERE FINANCING the
war!!! (snip)


The possibility of China openingly joining the conflict was a major
factor
in decision making of the time. China was obviously supporting the North
Vietnamese, but that is vastly different from what I said ("an esculation
of
the conflict would have caused China to *openly join* the conflict"). An
open conflict with China would have led to several million Chinese
soldiers
flooding into Vietnam to fight our soldiers directly, and may have even
led
to nuclear warfare between China and the USA. Only a darn fool would have
ignored that possibility (yet some military leaders did actually want to
ignore the possibility - our civilian government was wise enough not to).



Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Roger Gt" wrote:
Sorry, this can go no further, you
CHOSE not to believe anything
you like, but I was there at the
incidents described. (snip)


Yes, I choose not to believe accusations against a significant portion of
this country's population, or accusations of incompetency against the
government of this country, without clear and convincing evidence to back it
up. Surely you don't believe your word alone is enough for such accusations,
in a public forum, to go unchallenged.


(snip) So I will not continue, didn't mean
to get sucked into this line of discussion
anyway. The direction this has taken is
not in the topic of the radio group, and I
am leaving the group since it has produced
nothing of value or interest to me. (snip)


Well, that is certainly your decision to make. However, if what you've
said is really true, I strongly urge you to follow up by reporting your
experiences to the various veterans organizations in this country. Several
have ongoing programs to gather and verify the history of veterans over the
years.


There have been auto accidents in
California with over a hundred cars
involved, you heard how many were
hurt and the outcome of these
accidents of course!


No, but there would be a written record of each of those automobile
accidents - newspaper accounts, police records, hospital records, insurance
claims, and so on. The same is true for the incident you described (fifty
demonstrators jumping a marine, with fifteen requiruing medical attention
for broken bones), which means your claim can be fairly easily verified if
true.


(snip) But why would you believe
the news papers, with known bias,
and not an eye witness? (snip)


I'm not going to "believe" anyone, including a supposed eyewitness,
without facts to back up what is said. I can ask a newspaper for the source
of it's information, or research the incident myself in the same manner as
the newspaper did. But, an eyewitness, without verification of what is said,
is the absolute least reliable source of information.


You state the obvious as if you have
a problem believing it. Why if Generals
lack this magically unique knowledge
are they sometimes... (snip)


Again, a military officer does not have a mandate from the people to make
decisions that could impact all Americans. In a democracy, we place that
authority in the hands of the elected government, not in Generals. The
elected President is Commander in Chief of the military and the soldiers
(including Generals) obey his commands. Any effort to subvert that system,
by claiming government should have no say in the actions of our military or
whatever, is, in my opinion, a direct effort to subvert the very system of
government in this country. I took an oath many years ago to defend the
people, Constitution, and government, of this country. I still consider the
ultimate goal of that oath worthwhile.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

I meant to shut this off.
But forgot to unsubscribe the group.
When I read your "Reply" I thought about it and
finally decided to DE-BUNK the outrageous comments you made.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
"Roger Gt" wrote:
Sorry, this can go no further, you
CHOSE not to believe anything
you like, but I was there at the
incidents described. (snip)

Yes, I choose not to believe accusations against a significant portion
of
this country's population, or accusations of incompetency against the
government of this country, without clear and convincing evidence to back
it
up. Surely you don't believe your word alone is enough for such
accusations,
in a public forum, to go unchallenged.

I made no accusations against any but the persons involved!
You were not there, and can only attempt to make it less clear.
What "significant portion of this country's population?"
The Peaceniks were at most somewhat less than 3% of the population, and
don't seem to share your dedication to protecting this country and it's
people.
I made no "accusations of incompetency against the government of this
country" Rather I pointed out My opinion of the generally poor decisions
made under a difficult set of circumstances.
These are hardly hidden and are for the most part common knowledge.

I was engaged in a discussion, not a court case, my word is good in court,
and many other forums, all of which I have a right to access and speak in.
You can not challenge my stated view of incidents by argument and innuendo!

(snip) So I will not continue, didn't mean
to get sucked into this line of discussion
anyway. The direction this has taken is
not in the topic of the radio group, and I
am leaving the group since it has produced
nothing of value or interest to me. (snip)

As I will shortly!

Well, that is certainly your decision to make. However, if what you've
said is really true, I strongly urge you to follow up by reporting your
experiences to the various veterans organizations in this country. Several
have ongoing programs to gather and verify the history of veterans over
the
years.

I made every attempt possible to me at the time. The school handled it as a
"student altercation" and their report did not state a cause! My sworn
statement is on record as were eight others.

The school has changed administrations since then, and the records are in
storage. It is possible, but not easy to obtain them. I've tried.

There have been auto accidents in California with over a hundred cars
involved, you heard how many were hurt and the outcome of these
accidents of course!

No, but there would be a written record of each of those automobile
accidents - newspaper accounts, police records, hospital records,
insurance
claims, and so on. The same is true for the incident you described (fifty
demonstrators jumping a marine, with fifteen requiring medical attention
for broken bones), which means your claim can be fairly easily verified if
true.

You are not quoting me, and clearly did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine. There were fifty demonstrators
present, most ran when the violence erupted. Many (8) jumped in to help,
including myself. fifteen were looked at for medical reasons, but they were
only three broken bones, which I stated clearly! At the time the bones were
broken, there was some serious reduction in the action! Most were burses,
skinned knees and elbows, and (I think) a couple of black eyes.
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order to try to cast doubt upon someone
else? Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you look foolish!

Snipping out partial quotes, and modifying them to allow you more to comment
on is not questionable it is dishonest!
As to verification.
You have clearly never tried to obtain the records of an accident you were
not involved in!
You must state a reason, and they block out all names and addresses to
protect the privacy of the persons named. It takes a court order to obtain
more detail.

(snip) But why would you believe
the news papers, with known bias,
and not an eye witness? (snip)

I'm not going to "believe" anyone, including a supposed eyewitness,
without facts to back up what is said. I can ask a newspaper for the
source
of it's information, or research the incident myself in the same manner as
the newspaper did. But, an eyewitness, without verification of what is
said,
is the absolute least reliable source of information.

You would be a poor juror!
The court is clear, testimony and physical evidence are the only material
you may base a finding upon.

Also, as I said, I was not trying to make you believe, rather relate to you
an experience I HAD and verify that I had reason to believe it was more
common than the several minor incidents I personally viewed! Nothing you
have said changes anything at all!

You state the obvious as if you have
a problem believing it. Why if Generals
lack this magically unique knowledge
are they sometimes... (snip)


Again, a military officer does not have a mandate from the people to
make
decisions that could impact all Americans. In a democracy, we place that
authority in the hands of the elected government, not in Generals. The
elected President is Commander in Chief of the military and the soldiers
(including Generals) obey his commands. Any effort to subvert that system,
by claiming government should have no say in the actions of our military
or
whatever, is, in my opinion, a direct effort to subvert the very system of
government in this country. I took an oath many years ago to defend the
people, Constitution, and government, of this country. I still consider
the
ultimate goal of that oath worthwhile.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you more believable nor more patriotic!
You make statements which clearly indicate you either didn't understand what
I said, or have twisted the words to mean what you WANTED to hear. That
Ho-Ra not withstanding, it is not part of nor has any bearing upon the
discussion we were involved in.
I choose not to be drawn into a discussion of the responsibilities of
officers (Generals) to advise a president. It is not part of this
discussion!
After a visit to your poorly written web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have a twisted view of reality!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running when
the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when he started
breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken bones. And,
finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical attention ("He was
gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical attention"). The story
you're telling now is a lot different from the story you told before.


Snipping out partial quotes, and modifying
them to allow you more to comment on is
not questionable it is dishonest!


I have not modified a single one of the quotes of what you've said. Your
messages, and my quotes from those messages, are there for all to see.


(snip) You would be a poor juror! The court
is clear, testimony and physical evidence are
the only material you may base a finding upon.


Of course, this is a public forum, not a courtroom, Roger. However, lets
look at this from that perspective for a moment. The strongest testimony is
that backed up by physical evidence. You've offered no physical evidence.
Regardless, since you've now changed your story under cross examination,
nothing you've said would hold up even in a courtroom.


(snip) After a visit to your poorly written web
site, I see your travels possibly corrupted your
perspective and you have a twisted view of
reality!


Those travels were arranged, and paid for, by the Department of Defense.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running
when the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken
bones. And, finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical
attention ("He was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical
attention"). The story you're telling now is a lot different from the
story you told before.

Just for the sake of completeness, the entire article may be found archived at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=RSnGb.2255%24gO.607%40newssvr25.news.p rodigy.com.

It does indeed verify the accuracy of Dwight's quote.

--
"I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of anything when blood is their argument? Now, if these
men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the King that led them
to it; who to disobey were against all proportion of subjection." - W.S.

"Tom Betz" wrote in message
. 70...
Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) You are not quoting me, and clearly
did not read nor understand what I said.
I said only one (Jackass) jumped the marine.
There were fifty demonstrators present,
most ran when the violence erupted. Many
(8) jumped in to help, including myself.
fifteen were looked at for medical reasons,
but they were only three broken bones,
which I stated clearly! (snip)
Where do you get off mis-quoting in order
to try to cast doubt upon someone else?
Is it poor form, dishonest and makes you
look foolish!


Lets see who is really being dishonest here. Your exact words were...

"The worst one was when a gang
of about fifty demonstrators tried
to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration
was "shutting down" the school.. It
was only heated discussion, until
some jackass decided that since the
Jar-Head wouldn't do what they
told him they would restrain him. He
was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken
for medical attention. NEVER JUMP
a mud Marine! The crowd scattered
when he started breaking bones."

You clearly said "they," not one, tried to restrain the marine ("they
would restrain him"). You said nothing about most demonstrators running
when the violence erupted. Instead, you said the "crowd scattered when
he started breaking bones." You said nothing about the number of broken
bones. And, finally, you said fifteen demonstrators needed medical
attention ("He was gentle, no fatalities, fifteen taken for medical
attention"). The story you're telling now is a lot different from the
story you told before.

Just for the sake of completeness, the entire article may be found
archived at

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...wssvr25.news.p
rodigy.com.

It does indeed verify the accuracy of Dwight's quote.


The story has not changed, I only added details to show his assumptions were
BOGUS.
Actually I DID detail the number of broken bones! The number taken to the
Schools clinic included four of us who tried to break it up! I only got a
skinned knee. I didn't feel that was a needed detail, or for that matter
than any significant detail was needed. I was unaware that Dwight was
intending to defend the actions about which he has no first hand knowledge!
You are also being very selective and not at all objective.
None of these comments has any impact upon the incident which occurred so
long ago!
So inclusion of "they" was a misleading indicator which cause him to jump to
several unfounded assumptions. Again, his perception, not my commentary.
There is no point in the "Cross Examination" unless he maintains the
Demonstrators were not at fault. Please Name those you are defending! I
was there and couldn't get the names!
Perhaps more detail would have been needed, but there seemed no point, it is
OT!
However let me point out that he makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written web
site, I see your travels possibly corrupted your
perspective and you have a twisted view of
reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for, by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina in 1953. However, other than two years on the
coast of the Mediterranean Sea near Istanbul Turkey, I spent much of my
childhood in Sacramento California. I enlisted in the Army in 1970 and
served a little over two years in Germany (MOS 31M - Radio Relay Operator).
I returned to Europe in 1977 and found work as a sales representative with a
consumer electronics marketing firm based in Basel, Switzerland. I later
managed a German-owned computer store in Heidelberg.

During those ten years in Germany, I took a course in journalism and public
affairs, and an electrician course with several additional sub-courses in
communications fundamentals, logical troubleshooting, and electrical
physics.

In 1998, I went to Europe once again to live in Vicenza Italy for a year.
When I returned to the United States, I lived in Washington State for
several months and then moved to my present home in Myrtle Beach, South
Carolina.

Were all these Junkets paid for by Tax dollars? Shame!!!!

So much for your insistent irrelevant nitpicking!

Good Bye!

"Tom Betz" wrote in message
. 70...
Quoth "Dwight Stewart" in
k.net:

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip)

And why would you care?

I only related that I HAD seen a demonstration where violence erupted, and
DS wanted to pick it apart. Nether polite conversation, nor good manners
were evident!
Are there no participants in news groups with a modicum of manners?
Are you defending violent demonstrations as a "first amendment right?"
Rhetorical, your answers are of no consequence, and will have no effect!
All will be as it is now, and the sands will cover it all in time!

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) However let me point out that he
makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written
web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have
a twisted view of reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for,
by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina.... (snip)

(snip) Were all these Junkets paid for by
Tax dollars? Shame!!!!


If you wanted details, all you had to do was ask (as I did for you,
Roger). As for Turkey, my father was stationed there with the Air Force. The
trip to Germany was paid for by the Army while my wife was still on active
duty. She got out three years later and went to work for the Army as a
civilian employee (HQ USAREUR in Heidelberg). For much of that time I worked
at civilian jobs, and later for the Army itself. I was still working for the
Army, as a civilian employee, when we went to Italy (HQ SETAF in Vicenza)
for the Kosovo conflict. My wife retired as DoD employee shortly before the
trip to Italy and I retired shortly afterward (just after the trip to
Washington state).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) However let me point out that he
makes the comment

(snip) After a visit to your poorly written
web site, I see your travels possibly
corrupted your perspective and you have
a twisted view of reality!

Those travels were arranged, and paid for,
by the Department of Defense.

On his web page he states,
I was born in North Carolina.... (snip)

(snip) Were all these Junkets paid for by
Tax dollars? Shame!!!!


If you wanted details, all you had to do was ask (as I did for you,
Roger). As for Turkey, my father was stationed there with the Air Force.
The
trip to Germany was paid for by the Army while my wife was still on active
duty. She got out three years later and went to work for the Army as a
civilian employee (HQ USAREUR in Heidelberg). For much of that time I
worked
at civilian jobs, and later for the Army itself. I was still working for
the
Army, as a civilian employee, when we went to Italy (HQ SETAF in Vicenza)
for the Kosovo conflict. My wife retired as DoD employee shortly before
the
trip to Italy and I retired shortly afterward (just after the trip to
Washington state).


Gee it hurts when the shoe is on the other foot.
That is what you were doing with what I said,
jumping to conclusions about what I said.
You did not ask, you assumed!
It is different when your ox is gored.

You should not be so quick to criticize others when
they do what your have been indulging in all along!

BTW: 'I' do believe you! My Step father was airforce,
we traveled all over. But rarely in Europe!
Although he used to go for several months at a time.
Usually as an interceptor pilot it was all over America.

But you didn't ask for more details, you criticized taking
immense leaps of faith at what you THOUGHT I had said!

To BAD!
Good Bye!

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!

"Roger Gt" wrote:

Gee it hurts when the shoe is on
the other foot. That is what you
were doing with what I said,
jumping to conclusions about
what I said. (snip)


I didn't jump to any conclusions. Instead, I simply questioned the exact
words you posted to this newsgroup.


You did not ask, you assumed!


See the last paragraph below.


It is different when your ox is gored.


Man, you're not at all in touch with reality. No ox of mine was gored. I
openly volunteered the information, as I have done many times in these
newsgroups over the years.


You should not be so quick to criticize
others when they do what your have
been indulging in all along!


Initially, any criticism was in your own head. I simply questioned the
story given. You grew defensive when it became obvious that I wasn't going
to accept your story as offered. At that point, you began to change and
embelish the story to make it more believable. But, in my view, those very
changes and embellishments only made the story less believable (the truth
rarely changes).


But you didn't ask for more details, you
criticized taking immense leaps of faith at
what you THOUGHT I had said!


I specificially asked you when and where the incident took place. If you
continue to deny that (as you've now done twice in this message), I'll post
an exact quote of those words too. Otherwise, I've had my say, with nothing
more needed to be said, so will therefore let this entire discussion drop at
this point. Take care, Roger.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Well said....You are absolutely right and it is obvious that you know what
you are talking about...



Read the 10th Amendment for the few limited powers the FEDs were
explicitly given.
All other power was left to the states.
All the rest of FED power is economic blackmail upon the States.
Ghost