New ARRL Proposal -- Advanced license downgrade
 

"Tom Winston" wrote in
:

On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.


Truly weird. As a 20wpm Extra I don't see you as having a higher licence
than me, oddly enough.

"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...
On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade.

Incorrect!

Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam,

No, they did not. There have always been different written exams
for the two license classes. Until the 2000 restructuring, an Extra
required passing both the 50 question Advanced written *and* the 40
question Extra.

and passed a 13 wpm code test.

Only until 1990. After that time, code waivers were available.

Extra required 20 wpm in the same time frame.

Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam

again, incorrect!

-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

No argument there.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I was an Advanced in 1963. I guess, by proxy, I will be able to say I
was an Extra for 40 years. I became an Extra in 1979. What will I
become now.

Do you think that if everyone would just buy five copies of QST every
month the League would give up attempting to license every deadbeat
dad and upgrading every licensee that can recite QST?

Win/W0LZ


On 19 Jan 2004 19:11:59 GMT, "Tom Winston"
wrote:

On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.

"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...
On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.

There's that stupid pecking order thing again.

Hey, a little studying and a code waiver and anyone could have been an Advanced.

"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...
On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

Uhhhh...in what universe?

The only "Advanced" class licensees that I know of that took an
Extra written test but didn't upgrade were one's who failed the 20WPM.

And I'd like to know how getting more operating privileges is a
"downgrade"...?!?!

Would you take an airline ticket "upgrade" by moving FROM First
Class to Coach? Uh uh...It's the other way around. Same here.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

Perhaps. Certainly the Advanced Class folks passed a more
stringent code test. My Advanced written was hard, but so was the
Extra. I am proud of both.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.

Yeah...how dare they offer to get you more operating privileges
without having to take any further tests...rotten scoundrels anyway...

Steve, K4YZ

"Winston" wrote in message
...
I was an Advanced in 1963. I guess, by proxy, I will be able to say I
was an Extra for 40 years. I became an Extra in 1979. What will I
become now.

Think of it as having walked in a very large circle for the past 40 Years.

: ) : ) : )

Do you think that if everyone would just buy five copies of QST every
month the League would give up attempting to license every deadbeat
dad and upgrading every licensee that can recite QST?

Win/W0LZ

Probably an accurate observation Win. All that the ARRL has ever been
interested in for the past 40+ years is more subscriptions to their ad
filled fishwrap. No suprise really as the ARRL's 501-C3 Charter lists
them as a non-profit "scientific" publishing company.

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.

Now their franticly trying to back-peddle the boat before it finally goes
over Niagra Falls. Not much you can do, seeing that 99.5% of young
persons are more interested in Ipod, Blogging, Chatrooms and other
Net related projects instead of this old antiquated hobby of their
granddaddy called "ham radio". (It used to be that ham radio was
unique in that it was the only alternative to making a long distance
telephone call to speak with someone far away. Today anyone can
do the same with a $10-per-month ISP and a PC. The NOVELTY
of long distance communications for the common person has worn
off - this is the root-cause of the issue - ham radio is become obsolete. )

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:

"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...


On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:


Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...


That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.



Uhhhh...in what universe?

The only "Advanced" class licensees that I know of that took an
Extra written test but didn't upgrade were one's who failed the 20WPM.

There was that window of time from Jan 2000 to April 14, 2000 where one
could take the
extra written, pass it, get the CSCE, and cash it in on April 15, 2000.
And then have
your extra. And not fail the 20wpm test because he didn't take it. I
did this and also
took the advanced written (was an old tech plus), and cashed in the
CSCEs April 15th.


And I'd like to know how getting more operating privileges is a
"downgrade"...?!?!

Would you take an airline ticket "upgrade" by moving FROM First
Class to Coach? Uh uh...It's the other way around. Same here.



Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

But those advanceds didn't do the extra writtens (4B). So, if the extra
written is "worth"
more than 13wpm, then todays' extras have higher standards than the
advanceds'.
Depends on how you call it, if element 4B 13wpm or not.




Perhaps. Certainly the Advanced Class folks passed a more
stringent code test. My Advanced written was hard, but so was the
Extra. I am proud of both.

It's a good thing to have, but it's not at the top of my resume. My 13
patents
and BSEE are above it. Now that we're in bragging mode.... :-)

"google blogger" wrote in message
roups.com...

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.


Learn your history. ARRL fought that proposal. That was solely the idea of
the FCC.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"google blogger" wrote in
roups.com:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
I was an Advanced in 1963. I guess, by proxy, I will be able to say I
was an Extra for 40 years. I became an Extra in 1979. What will I
become now.

Think of it as having walked in a very large circle for the past 40
Years.

: ) : ) : )

Do you think that if everyone would just buy five copies of QST every
month the League would give up attempting to license every deadbeat
dad and upgrading every licensee that can recite QST?

Win/W0LZ

Probably an accurate observation Win. All that the ARRL has ever been
interested in for the past 40+ years is more subscriptions to their ad
filled fishwrap. No suprise really as the ARRL's 501-C3 Charter lists
them as a non-profit "scientific" publishing company.

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the
Incentive License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.

Now their franticly trying to back-peddle the boat before it finally
goes over Niagra Falls. Not much you can do, seeing that 99.5% of young
persons are more interested in Ipod, Blogging, Chatrooms and other
Net related projects instead of this old antiquated hobby of their
granddaddy called "ham radio". (It used to be that ham radio was
unique in that it was the only alternative to making a long distance
telephone call to speak with someone far away. Today anyone can
do the same with a $10-per-month ISP and a PC. The NOVELTY
of long distance communications for the common person has worn
off - this is the root-cause of the issue - ham radio is become
obsolete. )



I didn't realise that people wrapped fish in publications over here. Fish
wrapped in newspaper used to be really common back home in G land, and I
dare say you might still find it if you looked hard enough.

73 de Alun, N3KIP (Ex-G8VUK)

The ARRL's stand was now clear. Exclusive frequencies must be restored
to the Advanced and Extra class amateurs in order to give the Generals
an "incentive" to upgrade. Of course, what was left unsaid was that in
order to do so, frequencies would have to be taken away from the
General class hams."


All this so the top HAMs have something to gloat about.

"Tom W" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:00:25 GMT, Dee D. Flint wrote:

"google blogger" wrote in message
roups.com...

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.


Learn your history. ARRL fought that proposal. That was solely the idea of
the FCC.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Learn *your* history. It was the ARRL which first proposed incentive
licensing.

From http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page13.html:

"In summary, although the vast number of hams were satisfied, a small
minority had complaints. And the ARRL listened. In 1963, acting on
complaints they claim they received from members and operators in
other countries, the ARRL proposed "Incentive Licensing." In an
editorial, the ARRL implied that perhaps it was a mistake when the
Class B and Generals were given the 75 and 20 meter phone segments.
The ARRL's stand was now clear. Exclusive frequencies must be restored
to the Advanced and Extra class amateurs in order to give the Generals
an "incentive" to upgrade. Of course, what was left unsaid was that in
order to do so, frequencies would have to be taken away from the
General class hams."

Unfortunately, that's not quite how it happened.

FCC thought that hams would go for the Extra after 1953 simply
"because it
was there". And some did - but not many.

As early as 1958, FCC asked why there were so few Extras. They were
concerned about certain trends in amateur radio they didn't care
for, such as increasing use of manufactured equipment whose inner
workings the ham-owner had only a vague concept of.

FCC asked ARRL for proposals in 1958, and again in 1963. ARRL put
together a
very simple proposal in 1963, *in response to* FCC's request. It
consisted
of just two items:

1) Reopen the Advanced class license to new applicants (it had been
closed
at the end of 1952)

2) Require an Advanced or Extra class license to use 'phone on the 80,
40,
20 and 15 meter ham bands. (back then 30, 17 and 12 meters were not
ham bands).

That was the whole proposal. No additional code testing would be
needed to
retain full privileges. No subbands-by-license-class except those
already
in place for Novices. No new limitations on CW. Existing Advanceds
wouldn't have to do a thing. Existing Generals and Conditionals would
have to take
one additional written test to get their 80 thru 15 'phone privileges
back.

This proposal was nothing new - it was essentially a return to the old
"ABC" system that had existed from the mid '30s to February 1953, and
which FCC
had revised in 1951 by adding Novice, Tech and Extra and renaming the
ABC classes of license.

The 1963 ARRL proposal got an RM number and the commentary began...

FCC looked at that simple proposal, and then asked for more. They got
quite
a bit of response from the amateur committee, and at least 10 of the
proposals were assigned RM numbers. There were at least 11 proposals
with
RM numbers by 1965.

Commentary to ARRL was mixed, to say the least, but a slight majority
were
in favor of "incentive licensing" changes. ARRL and FCC took that as a
mandate...

Out of all these proposals FCC put together ideas and came up with a
proposed
scheme that bore little resemblance to the 1963 ARRL proposal. It was
far more
draconian, restrictive and encompassing than anything ARRL proposed,
and was strongly opposed. Finally a compromise was announced in 1967.

Over 6000 comments were received by FCC on the matter, even though the
number
of hams back then was less than a quarter million and there were no
online
comment systems. The whole process took years (1963-1967).

Most hams then and today are not aware that FCC asked first. But they
did.

And I'll ask the question again:

How did incentive licensing "trash ham radio"?


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Tom W" wrote in message
...
On 22 Jan 2004 12:19:26 -0800, N2EY wrote:
"Tom W" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:00:25 GMT, Dee D. Flint
wrote:

"google blogger" wrote in message
roups.com...

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the
Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.


Learn your history. ARRL fought that proposal. That was solely the
idea of
the FCC.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Learn *your* history. It was the ARRL which first proposed incentive
licensing.

From http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page13.html:

"In summary, although the vast number of hams were satisfied, a small
minority had complaints. And the ARRL listened. In 1963, acting on
complaints they claim they received from members and operators in
other countries, the ARRL proposed "Incentive Licensing." In an
editorial, the ARRL implied that perhaps it was a mistake when the
Class B and Generals were given the 75 and 20 meter phone segments.
The ARRL's stand was now clear. Exclusive frequencies must be restored
to the Advanced and Extra class amateurs in order to give the Generals
an "incentive" to upgrade. Of course, what was left unsaid was that in
order to do so, frequencies would have to be taken away from the
General class hams."

Unfortunately, that's not quite how it happened.

FCC thought that hams would go for the Extra after 1953 simply
"because it
was there". And some did - but not many. ...

Please cite references. I have before me two historical accounts
which both agree that the ARRL first broached the subject of incentive
licensing, as well as the QST editorial from 1963 which rationalized
it. Web pages such as "The Wayback Machine" also agree that the
League first proposed the changes which were finally implemented in
1967.

In fact, http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page14.html goes on to say:

"On May 3, 1963, the ARRL Board of Directors adopted their official
position on incentive licensing. Their proposal would completely take
away all General and Conditional class phone privileges on 75, 40, 20,
and 15 meters in a two-year phase-in period. In other words, the
ARRL's incentive licensing would only allow HF phone operation for
Generals and Conditionals on 10 meters and on the small sliver of 160
meters that was available in the days of LORAN Radionavigation. The
ARRL also suggested reopening the Advanced class license again to
those who held a General or Conditional license for one year.
Strangely, the ARRL did not suggest that Extras be given exclusive
frequencies, nor did they propose exclusive CW frequencies. Rather,
they just wanted exclusive access to the 75 through 15-meter phone
segments for the Advanced and Extra class licenses ..."

Based on all of these items, it appears to me that your account could
well be someone's revisionist history. I can find nothing in the
literature to support it, but can easily find material which refutes
it.

Thank you for all the refrences. I also 'remember' it that way. As I
stated to Dee D in another post.

73

Dan/W4NTI

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom W" wrote in message
...
On 22 Jan 2004 12:19:26 -0800, N2EY wrote:
"Tom W" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:00:25 GMT, Dee D. Flint
wrote:

"google blogger" wrote in message
roups.com...

Looks like the Ivy League also has **finally** realized that the
Incentive
License disaster of the 1960's pretty much trashed ham radio.


Learn your history. ARRL fought that proposal. That was solely
the
idea of
the FCC.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Learn *your* history. It was the ARRL which first proposed
incentive
licensing.

From http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page13.html:

"In summary, although the vast number of hams were satisfied, a
small
minority had complaints. And the ARRL listened. In 1963, acting on
complaints they claim they received from members and operators in
other countries, the ARRL proposed "Incentive Licensing." In an
editorial, the ARRL implied that perhaps it was a mistake when the
Class B and Generals were given the 75 and 20 meter phone segments.
The ARRL's stand was now clear. Exclusive frequencies must be
restored
to the Advanced and Extra class amateurs in order to give the
Generals
an "incentive" to upgrade. Of course, what was left unsaid was that
in
order to do so, frequencies would have to be taken away from the
General class hams."

Unfortunately, that's not quite how it happened.

FCC thought that hams would go for the Extra after 1953 simply
"because it
was there". And some did - but not many. ...

Please cite references. I have before me two historical accounts
which both agree that the ARRL first broached the subject of incentive
licensing, as well as the QST editorial from 1963 which rationalized
it. Web pages such as "The Wayback Machine" also agree that the
League first proposed the changes which were finally implemented in
1967.

In fact, http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page14.html goes on to say:

"On May 3, 1963, the ARRL Board of Directors adopted their official
position on incentive licensing. Their proposal would completely take
away all General and Conditional class phone privileges on 75, 40, 20,
and 15 meters in a two-year phase-in period. In other words, the
ARRL's incentive licensing would only allow HF phone operation for
Generals and Conditionals on 10 meters and on the small sliver of 160
meters that was available in the days of LORAN Radionavigation. The
ARRL also suggested reopening the Advanced class license again to
those who held a General or Conditional license for one year.
Strangely, the ARRL did not suggest that Extras be given exclusive
frequencies, nor did they propose exclusive CW frequencies. Rather,
they just wanted exclusive access to the 75 through 15-meter phone
segments for the Advanced and Extra class licenses ..."

Based on all of these items, it appears to me that your account could
well be someone's revisionist history. I can find nothing in the
literature to support it, but can easily find material which refutes
it.

Thank you for all the refrences. I also 'remember' it that way. As I
stated to Dee D in another post.

73


I too appreciate the detailed references. Facts are always good to have. I
was unaware that the initial concept was put out by the ARRL. I was looking
only at the final version that the FCC developed, which was substantially
different than the ARRL's proposal and which the ARRL then opposed due to
these significant differences.

FYI, in conversation, I prefer Dee rather than Dee D even though I use more
formal signature.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

I too appreciate the detailed references. Facts are always good to have.
I
was unaware that the initial concept was put out by the ARRL. I was
looking
only at the final version that the FCC developed, which was substantially
different than the ARRL's proposal and which the ARRL then opposed due to
these significant differences.

FYI, in conversation, I prefer Dee rather than Dee D even though I use
more
formal signature.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Thats what I like about you Dee, your ability to recognize constructive
comments and not fly off the handle.

Dan/W4NTI

"Tom W" wrote:

In fact, http://www.qsl.net/ecara/wayback/page14.html goes on to say:

"On May 3, 1963, the ARRL Board of Directors adopted their official
position on incentive licensing. Their proposal would completely take
away all General and Conditional class phone privileges on 75, 40, 20,
and 15 meters in a two-year phase-in period. In other words, the
ARRL's incentive licensing would only allow HF phone operation for
Generals and Conditionals on 10 meters and on the small sliver of 160
meters that was available in the days of LORAN Radionavigation.

Great article! Thanks for posting that link. I learned a few things I
never knew before. (I was just starting to get interested in radio in
1963.)

It's amazing that ham radio has survived at all when you consider how
much needless tinkering with the license structure has gone on over
the years, and how much discontent it has created.

Art Harris N2AH

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Tom Winston wrote:
On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:
Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...

That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

But one can still tell: The PRIOR CLASS field will still say "A".

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.

That part I agree with; they can't seem to leave anything alone without screwing
it up.

"D. Stussy" wrote

|
| But one can still tell: The PRIOR CLASS field will still say "A".
|

Not in all cases. My "prior class" was Conditional.