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spectrum analyser
hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit?
thanks |
"payam" wrote in message om... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks If by High Frequency you mean up to 30MHz, mine is quite practical and goes up to about 140MHz (http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...ctrumanalyser/). If you want UHF then try a google for "homebrew spectrum analyser", brings loads of good links. 72 Hans G0UPL |
"payam" wrote in message om... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks If by High Frequency you mean up to 30MHz, mine is quite practical and goes up to about 140MHz (http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...ctrumanalyser/). If you want UHF then try a google for "homebrew spectrum analyser", brings loads of good links. 72 Hans G0UPL |
In article ,
says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. -- jm ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam ------------------------------------------------------ |
In article ,
says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. -- jm ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam ------------------------------------------------------ |
I built the 'Poor Man's Spectrum Analyzer' a whole lot of years ago. While
it does work, it leaves a lot to be desired.. The resolution isn't very good and I would hate to make any judgments on equipment performance based on it. I think it's an interesting project and I'll just leave it at that. Joel AG4QC |
I built the 'Poor Man's Spectrum Analyzer' a whole lot of years ago. While
it does work, it leaves a lot to be desired.. The resolution isn't very good and I would hate to make any judgments on equipment performance based on it. I think it's an interesting project and I'll just leave it at that. Joel AG4QC |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ... Hans Summers wrote: The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. The problem is that real incoming signals and the analyser's spurious responses all look very much the same on the screen. When you can't trust what the analyser says, it becomes very hard to understand what's really going on. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! CATV tuners and low-level NE602 mixers are simply not the building blocks for a high dynamic range receiver. The W7ZOI design uses much more appropriate building blocks so its readouts are much more trustworthy. I used two SA602A mixers in my design (see http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...ctrumanalyser/) and get about 60 or 70dB of on-screen dynamic range. The SA602A approach does have the advantage of similicity, at the cost of reduced performance. I use one SA602A with the on-chip oscillator as the VCO swept from 145 to 290MHz with 145MHz IF output. The 2nd SA602A has 153MHz fixed on-chip oscillator and mixes down to the 8MHz 2nd IF. Spurious responses in my analyser from strong signals aren't usually a problem except at the upper end of the frequency coverage. The W7ZOI analyser covers 0-70MHz, mine 0-140MHz. It would be very interesting to compare my design against a W7ZOI analyser over the same frequency range, i.e. place a 70MHz low pass filter ahead of my analyser. I suspect spurious reponses would be comparable, but on-screen dynamic range somewhat less in my analyser. My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. What if you don't have another analyser ;-) Part of my intention with my simple analyser was to build something straightforward but still extremely useful, and do so without access to much other test equipment. When I have the Mk2 up and running it will be interesting to compare. 73, Hans G0UPL |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ... Hans Summers wrote: The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. The problem is that real incoming signals and the analyser's spurious responses all look very much the same on the screen. When you can't trust what the analyser says, it becomes very hard to understand what's really going on. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! CATV tuners and low-level NE602 mixers are simply not the building blocks for a high dynamic range receiver. The W7ZOI design uses much more appropriate building blocks so its readouts are much more trustworthy. I used two SA602A mixers in my design (see http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...ctrumanalyser/) and get about 60 or 70dB of on-screen dynamic range. The SA602A approach does have the advantage of similicity, at the cost of reduced performance. I use one SA602A with the on-chip oscillator as the VCO swept from 145 to 290MHz with 145MHz IF output. The 2nd SA602A has 153MHz fixed on-chip oscillator and mixes down to the 8MHz 2nd IF. Spurious responses in my analyser from strong signals aren't usually a problem except at the upper end of the frequency coverage. The W7ZOI analyser covers 0-70MHz, mine 0-140MHz. It would be very interesting to compare my design against a W7ZOI analyser over the same frequency range, i.e. place a 70MHz low pass filter ahead of my analyser. I suspect spurious reponses would be comparable, but on-screen dynamic range somewhat less in my analyser. My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. What if you don't have another analyser ;-) Part of my intention with my simple analyser was to build something straightforward but still extremely useful, and do so without access to much other test equipment. When I have the Mk2 up and running it will be interesting to compare. 73, Hans G0UPL |
My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. Why not go for the minicircuits +14dBm high level mixers ? ... their quite lossy (around 9dB loss) but that can be over come. They do need a fair bit of LO drive though (50mW) but that's no real problem these days, a couple of +18dBm MMIC's (ERA's etc) in push pull mode should guarantee that level of power and hopefully give you 3db more than needed so you can use 3dB pad's around the mixer. Clive |
My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. Why not go for the minicircuits +14dBm high level mixers ? ... their quite lossy (around 9dB loss) but that can be over come. They do need a fair bit of LO drive though (50mW) but that's no real problem these days, a couple of +18dBm MMIC's (ERA's etc) in push pull mode should guarantee that level of power and hopefully give you 3db more than needed so you can use 3dB pad's around the mixer. Clive |
Tnx, it's certainly one of the things I'm considering. That's more effort than an LC tank on a couple of SA602 pins. But I guess for higher performance you need higher complexity. 73 Hans G0UPL wrote in message ... My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. Why not go for the minicircuits +14dBm high level mixers ? ... their quite lossy (around 9dB loss) but that can be over come. They do need a fair bit of LO drive though (50mW) but that's no real problem these days, a couple of +18dBm MMIC's (ERA's etc) in push pull mode should guarantee that level of power and hopefully give you 3db more than needed so you can use 3dB pad's around the mixer. Clive |
Tnx, it's certainly one of the things I'm considering. That's more effort than an LC tank on a couple of SA602 pins. But I guess for higher performance you need higher complexity. 73 Hans G0UPL wrote in message ... My analyser Mk2 is already under construction and will aim to provide masses more features, greater coverage, and improved dynamic range performance. Why not go for the minicircuits +14dBm high level mixers ? ... their quite lossy (around 9dB loss) but that can be over come. They do need a fair bit of LO drive though (50mW) but that's no real problem these days, a couple of +18dBm MMIC's (ERA's etc) in push pull mode should guarantee that level of power and hopefully give you 3db more than needed so you can use 3dB pad's around the mixer. Clive |
In article ,
says... The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior and can you quantify it? Apart from what Ian said, it's also really important to have a stable LO. If you don't -- i.e., you're relying on an inadequately-stabilized cable TV tuner -- you can only tell if a signal is present or absent. You can't tell much about its stability and noise level, or look for close-in IMD products. Narrow resolution bandwidths require stable LOs. I haven't used a W7ZOI analyzer myself, but it ought to be at least an order of magnitude more stable than any CATV implementation. It would indeed be interesting to see a spec-for-spec comparison between the two. Either way, they make great educational projects. :) -- jm ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam ------------------------------------------------------ |
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes: Hans Summers wrote: The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. NO analyzer means NO results. If I were designing a spectrum analyzer for the electronic instrument market, I would shoot for at least meeting Hewlett-Packard Agilent or Rhode&Schwarz specifications...R&D budget willing. That's a bit steep for the hobbyist area. The problem is that real incoming signals and the analyser's spurious responses all look very much the same on the screen. When you can't trust what the analyser says, it becomes very hard to understand what's really going on. Sigh. A spectrum analyzer, almost ALL of them, is one of the easier instruments to characterize from the outside, using other instruments. Frequency span, logarithmic linearity, passband of the final IF are all relatively easy to determine from the outside. So what if a spectrum analyzer isn't "perfect?" It is much, much better than having NO spectrum analyzer. The majority of spectrum analyzer input signal levels are most likely to be UNDER -10 dbm. That input level is not - generally - going to cause all kinds of "imperfections" in the viewed spectrum. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! I disagree. There are any number of application notes free for the downloading on the Internet, from Agilent they are copies of older (two decades at least) FREE paper application notes. Agilent also has free application notes on the basic building blocks within an analyzer and much information on the characteristics of those blocks. CATV tuners and low-level NE602 mixers are simply not the building blocks for a high dynamic range receiver. The W7ZOI design uses much more appropriate building blocks so its readouts are much more trustworthy. Yes, its possible to "conquer" the dreaded too-high-signal IM mountain peaks with high-level mixers and higher-milliWatt first LOs. See Mini- Circuits' catalog as one place for modules. I haven't seen the "W7ZOI design" so I won't critique it at all. Having used spectrum analyzers for about 4 decades, the high-input-level IM bogeyman seldom goes "boo!" for most spectrum observation. That includes transmitter output monitoring. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? In checking my own little special-purpose IF strip Sweeper (a quasi- spectrum-analyzer), I am fortunate to have a pair of H-P rotary step attenuators (salvaged, checked for calibration by another) to determine if the Log response curve of the Analog Devices chip is correct...rather very basic stuff. Unfortunately, the accuracy of the external attenuator is about the same as the AD accuracy. I'd love to have a Weinschel Precision Bench Attenuator to use as a comparison, but don't, can't afford one. I do have a very good pair of H-P signal generators (very much previously owned) which have been put in order by a good friend of mine. With the help of an outboard lowpass filter (easy to make) which is also characterised by response testing using a linear detector, I can guarantee an RF signal with all harmonics down 60 dbc. The RF power output of those generators is also separately characteriseable/calibrateable within 2 db of absolute level at the high-power output (0 dbm) all the way down to -120 dbm, probably lower. The lower levels are determined by a waveguide-below-cutoff internal attenuator which hardly ever jumps out of calibration unless the mechanicals get goofy. The Weinschel attenuation standard uses the same basic below-cutoff principle. With all of the above (two generators, overlapping ranges) I can absolutely guarantee a true "two-tone" testing setup for an analyzer to determine what the 1 db or the 3 db IM values are of any receiver front end. So far, I've never ever seen any cause for concern with any input level up to -10 dbm. Have I ever done any such? Of course, even checking out a used (and rare) Tektronix spectrum analyzer plug-in on a borrow. I have YET to encounter any receiver input that goes higher than -10 dbm equivalent input with the one exception of being within two blocks of local AM broadcast station KMPC pushing 50 KW into their antennas. I'm sure there are all kinds of "exceptions" to that and I'm sure there will be commentary coming back on that. :-) I'm not going to get in about the relationship of sweep rate and final SA IF resolution...which are VERY important in SA work, particularly in relatively narrowband observations. Close-proximity signals can "hide" if wide resolution IFs are in place...that "hiding" visible at input RF levels well below ANY intermodulation distortion level. The resolution aspect of practical SA design is a separate matter but should not be forgotten.. When push comes to shove in all this, I'd say that SOME KIND of spectrum analyzer is a LOT better than NONE. EOF. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes: Hans Summers wrote: The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. NO analyzer means NO results. If I were designing a spectrum analyzer for the electronic instrument market, I would shoot for at least meeting Hewlett-Packard Agilent or Rhode&Schwarz specifications...R&D budget willing. That's a bit steep for the hobbyist area. The problem is that real incoming signals and the analyser's spurious responses all look very much the same on the screen. When you can't trust what the analyser says, it becomes very hard to understand what's really going on. Sigh. A spectrum analyzer, almost ALL of them, is one of the easier instruments to characterize from the outside, using other instruments. Frequency span, logarithmic linearity, passband of the final IF are all relatively easy to determine from the outside. So what if a spectrum analyzer isn't "perfect?" It is much, much better than having NO spectrum analyzer. The majority of spectrum analyzer input signal levels are most likely to be UNDER -10 dbm. That input level is not - generally - going to cause all kinds of "imperfections" in the viewed spectrum. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! I disagree. There are any number of application notes free for the downloading on the Internet, from Agilent they are copies of older (two decades at least) FREE paper application notes. Agilent also has free application notes on the basic building blocks within an analyzer and much information on the characteristics of those blocks. CATV tuners and low-level NE602 mixers are simply not the building blocks for a high dynamic range receiver. The W7ZOI design uses much more appropriate building blocks so its readouts are much more trustworthy. Yes, its possible to "conquer" the dreaded too-high-signal IM mountain peaks with high-level mixers and higher-milliWatt first LOs. See Mini- Circuits' catalog as one place for modules. I haven't seen the "W7ZOI design" so I won't critique it at all. Having used spectrum analyzers for about 4 decades, the high-input-level IM bogeyman seldom goes "boo!" for most spectrum observation. That includes transmitter output monitoring. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? In checking my own little special-purpose IF strip Sweeper (a quasi- spectrum-analyzer), I am fortunate to have a pair of H-P rotary step attenuators (salvaged, checked for calibration by another) to determine if the Log response curve of the Analog Devices chip is correct...rather very basic stuff. Unfortunately, the accuracy of the external attenuator is about the same as the AD accuracy. I'd love to have a Weinschel Precision Bench Attenuator to use as a comparison, but don't, can't afford one. I do have a very good pair of H-P signal generators (very much previously owned) which have been put in order by a good friend of mine. With the help of an outboard lowpass filter (easy to make) which is also characterised by response testing using a linear detector, I can guarantee an RF signal with all harmonics down 60 dbc. The RF power output of those generators is also separately characteriseable/calibrateable within 2 db of absolute level at the high-power output (0 dbm) all the way down to -120 dbm, probably lower. The lower levels are determined by a waveguide-below-cutoff internal attenuator which hardly ever jumps out of calibration unless the mechanicals get goofy. The Weinschel attenuation standard uses the same basic below-cutoff principle. With all of the above (two generators, overlapping ranges) I can absolutely guarantee a true "two-tone" testing setup for an analyzer to determine what the 1 db or the 3 db IM values are of any receiver front end. So far, I've never ever seen any cause for concern with any input level up to -10 dbm. Have I ever done any such? Of course, even checking out a used (and rare) Tektronix spectrum analyzer plug-in on a borrow. I have YET to encounter any receiver input that goes higher than -10 dbm equivalent input with the one exception of being within two blocks of local AM broadcast station KMPC pushing 50 KW into their antennas. I'm sure there are all kinds of "exceptions" to that and I'm sure there will be commentary coming back on that. :-) I'm not going to get in about the relationship of sweep rate and final SA IF resolution...which are VERY important in SA work, particularly in relatively narrowband observations. Close-proximity signals can "hide" if wide resolution IFs are in place...that "hiding" visible at input RF levels well below ANY intermodulation distortion level. The resolution aspect of practical SA design is a separate matter but should not be forgotten.. When push comes to shove in all this, I'd say that SOME KIND of spectrum analyzer is a LOT better than NONE. EOF. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
"John Miles" wrote in message ... In article , says... The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior and can you quantify it? Apart from what Ian said, it's also really important to have a stable LO. If you don't -- i.e., you're relying on an inadequately-stabilized cable TV tuner -- you can only tell if a signal is present or absent. You can't tell much about its stability and noise level, or look for close-in IMD products. Narrow resolution bandwidths require stable LOs. I haven't used a W7ZOI analyzer myself, but it ought to be at least an order of magnitude more stable than any CATV implementation. It would indeed be interesting to see a spec-for-spec comparison between the two. The W7ZOI analyser uses a mini-circuits VCO. I couldn't find any stability data on the minicricuits website, do you know of a source? I suppose oscillator phase noise is also important. I'm interested in why a minicircuits VCO should be an order of magnitude more stable than a CATV or UHF TV tuner's VCO? I have a UHF tuner here (470-862MHz). The tuning voltage (approx 1-25V) is stabilised by a simple zener diode arrangement. Even when left on for hours tuned to a TV station, no re-tuning is necessary. As far as I can tell there is no AFC employed. Either way, they make great educational projects. :) Agreed! Hans G0UPL |
"John Miles" wrote in message ... In article , says... The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. The W7ZOI project is very interesting. I'm interested in what ways you think it's superior to the poor man's spectrum analysers based on CATV tuners? The latter surely have greater frequency coverage. But in what ways are they inferior and can you quantify it? Apart from what Ian said, it's also really important to have a stable LO. If you don't -- i.e., you're relying on an inadequately-stabilized cable TV tuner -- you can only tell if a signal is present or absent. You can't tell much about its stability and noise level, or look for close-in IMD products. Narrow resolution bandwidths require stable LOs. I haven't used a W7ZOI analyzer myself, but it ought to be at least an order of magnitude more stable than any CATV implementation. It would indeed be interesting to see a spec-for-spec comparison between the two. The W7ZOI analyser uses a mini-circuits VCO. I couldn't find any stability data on the minicricuits website, do you know of a source? I suppose oscillator phase noise is also important. I'm interested in why a minicircuits VCO should be an order of magnitude more stable than a CATV or UHF TV tuner's VCO? I have a UHF tuner here (470-862MHz). The tuning voltage (approx 1-25V) is stabilised by a simple zener diode arrangement. Even when left on for hours tuned to a TV station, no re-tuning is necessary. As far as I can tell there is no AFC employed. Either way, they make great educational projects. :) Agreed! Hans G0UPL |
Oscillator phase noise will show up as noise sidebands on the signals
you're measuring. They'll limit your ability to use your spectrum analyzer to judge the noise that's really coming from the signals. As a very good and professional engineer who spent a number of years designing some of the best commercial spectrum analyzers made, Wes most certainly paid a great deal of attention to phase noise and dynamic range, two of the most important potentially limiting factors of spectrum analyzer performance. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Hans Summers wrote: . . . I suppose oscillator phase noise is also important. . . |
Oscillator phase noise will show up as noise sidebands on the signals
you're measuring. They'll limit your ability to use your spectrum analyzer to judge the noise that's really coming from the signals. As a very good and professional engineer who spent a number of years designing some of the best commercial spectrum analyzers made, Wes most certainly paid a great deal of attention to phase noise and dynamic range, two of the most important potentially limiting factors of spectrum analyzer performance. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Hans Summers wrote: . . . I suppose oscillator phase noise is also important. . . |
Avery Fineman wrote:
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. I'm an amateur, not a professional, but have paid my dues in this area. I have helped develop, and have built and used, two generations of HF (0 - 100MHz) spectrum analysers of the NE602 persuasion. Then a basket-case Texscan 0-1GHz box came along which I rescued and used for VHF work. That was followed by the HP-141 series analyser which I'm currently using (and can now be bought for much less than the price of a new rig). I also developed a 0-1.5GHz tracking generator for the 141 boxes. Through friends, I have some limited access to modern professional equipment, and know how to use it. My experience with the NE602 type is that it's great as a "fun" analyser, but you can very quickly outgrow it. Yes, it will give you general indications, like "Is that oscillator working?" or "Is that final output stage generating harmonics?" Those indications even have some numbers of MHz and dB attached. NO analyzer means NO results. Of course I'd rather have that much information than no analyser at all. (Len, if you happen not to mention something that is completely obvious, I still assume that you're completely aware of it. Kindly extend the same courtesy to me.) But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. The simple rule of thumb is: 1. If the performance of your test equipment is better - in whatever ways are important for the measurement in hand - than the performance of the equipment under test (EUT) then the results will be reliable enough for amateur work. 2. If your test equipment is comparable with the EUT, you'll get useful indications. 3. If your test equipment is worse than the EUT, what you're actually testing is the testgear itself! You'll learn nothing useful about the EUT, and may actually be misled. So aim for zone 1, settle for zone 2 if you must, but stay out of zone 3. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? That comment was mostly to make the point that the cleanest display is the most real. The absolute standard of comparison is the perfect spectrum analyser with no spurious responses. That is an *idea* to which anyone has ready access, any time. Before I ever had a real spectrum analyser, I got a lot of good mileage out of thinking "Now if I had a spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" That isn't empty dreaming - it's a highly *practical* way of focusing your thinking on a problem in the here-and-now. When I built the first "fun" analyser (which had to wait until the hardware collection had expanded to include a good oscilloscope) I found it quite disappointing, because it still wasn't showing me reality. I was still having to think "Now if I had a *good* spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" Over the years, more and more of the mental testgear has been changed into hardware, but the mental spectrum analyser still gets switched on quite frequently - it has instant warmup and it also works very well in the bath and, er, the other places where I do my best thinking! Out in the workshop, the real hardware adds real-life numbers to the ideas, and also checks that there isn't anything happening that I hadn't thought of. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! I disagree. There are any number of application notes free for the downloading on the Internet, from Agilent they are copies of older (two decades at least) FREE paper application notes. Agilent also has free application notes on the basic building blocks within an analyzer and much information on the characteristics of those blocks. That's not the point. You are talking about the availability of information, which is not in dispute. I am talking about understanding and applying it. By the time you've absorbed the available information - especially the information about the *imperfections* of spectrum analysers, so you can understand how much of what you see on-screen is real - you're not a beginner any more. It will have been a useful learning experience... but perhaps not the one you'd have chosen right then. Being a beginner in any area is hard work. When you're ttrying to learn what it's all about, the last thing you need is to have to fight poor equipment as well. Musical instruments are very much the same - so-called "beginner" instruments are actually quite hard work for anyone to play; in contrast, a better-quality (read: expensive) instrument feels almost like it's playing itself. Unfortunately, budget reasons mean that beginners will almost always have to learn on instruments (test or music) that are hard to use. We have to accept that, but for heaven's sake let's not pretend to make a virtue of it! In this particular case, there does exist a very good, reliable, second-level design (the W7ZOI). It's a little more expensive to build than the entry-level stuff, but not significantly more complex. It's very well designed, so while you're building it you'll learn some very useful things from a top amateur (and former professional) RF designer. It's also modular, so you can build it in stages, and upgrade various parts as and when you want. Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Avery Fineman wrote:
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. I'm an amateur, not a professional, but have paid my dues in this area. I have helped develop, and have built and used, two generations of HF (0 - 100MHz) spectrum analysers of the NE602 persuasion. Then a basket-case Texscan 0-1GHz box came along which I rescued and used for VHF work. That was followed by the HP-141 series analyser which I'm currently using (and can now be bought for much less than the price of a new rig). I also developed a 0-1.5GHz tracking generator for the 141 boxes. Through friends, I have some limited access to modern professional equipment, and know how to use it. My experience with the NE602 type is that it's great as a "fun" analyser, but you can very quickly outgrow it. Yes, it will give you general indications, like "Is that oscillator working?" or "Is that final output stage generating harmonics?" Those indications even have some numbers of MHz and dB attached. NO analyzer means NO results. Of course I'd rather have that much information than no analyser at all. (Len, if you happen not to mention something that is completely obvious, I still assume that you're completely aware of it. Kindly extend the same courtesy to me.) But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. The simple rule of thumb is: 1. If the performance of your test equipment is better - in whatever ways are important for the measurement in hand - than the performance of the equipment under test (EUT) then the results will be reliable enough for amateur work. 2. If your test equipment is comparable with the EUT, you'll get useful indications. 3. If your test equipment is worse than the EUT, what you're actually testing is the testgear itself! You'll learn nothing useful about the EUT, and may actually be misled. So aim for zone 1, settle for zone 2 if you must, but stay out of zone 3. and can you quantify it? Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? That comment was mostly to make the point that the cleanest display is the most real. The absolute standard of comparison is the perfect spectrum analyser with no spurious responses. That is an *idea* to which anyone has ready access, any time. Before I ever had a real spectrum analyser, I got a lot of good mileage out of thinking "Now if I had a spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" That isn't empty dreaming - it's a highly *practical* way of focusing your thinking on a problem in the here-and-now. When I built the first "fun" analyser (which had to wait until the hardware collection had expanded to include a good oscilloscope) I found it quite disappointing, because it still wasn't showing me reality. I was still having to think "Now if I had a *good* spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" Over the years, more and more of the mental testgear has been changed into hardware, but the mental spectrum analyser still gets switched on quite frequently - it has instant warmup and it also works very well in the bath and, er, the other places where I do my best thinking! Out in the workshop, the real hardware adds real-life numbers to the ideas, and also checks that there isn't anything happening that I hadn't thought of. As with lots of beginner-level test equipment, it sometimes needs an expert to understand it! I disagree. There are any number of application notes free for the downloading on the Internet, from Agilent they are copies of older (two decades at least) FREE paper application notes. Agilent also has free application notes on the basic building blocks within an analyzer and much information on the characteristics of those blocks. That's not the point. You are talking about the availability of information, which is not in dispute. I am talking about understanding and applying it. By the time you've absorbed the available information - especially the information about the *imperfections* of spectrum analysers, so you can understand how much of what you see on-screen is real - you're not a beginner any more. It will have been a useful learning experience... but perhaps not the one you'd have chosen right then. Being a beginner in any area is hard work. When you're ttrying to learn what it's all about, the last thing you need is to have to fight poor equipment as well. Musical instruments are very much the same - so-called "beginner" instruments are actually quite hard work for anyone to play; in contrast, a better-quality (read: expensive) instrument feels almost like it's playing itself. Unfortunately, budget reasons mean that beginners will almost always have to learn on instruments (test or music) that are hard to use. We have to accept that, but for heaven's sake let's not pretend to make a virtue of it! In this particular case, there does exist a very good, reliable, second-level design (the W7ZOI). It's a little more expensive to build than the entry-level stuff, but not significantly more complex. It's very well designed, so while you're building it you'll learn some very useful things from a top amateur (and former professional) RF designer. It's also modular, so you can build it in stages, and upgrade various parts as and when you want. Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ... Avery Fineman wrote: In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: [...] But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. I think it does much better than just give general indications. It certainly has opened my eyes to a whole new world inaccessible to me before having the analyser. It's comparable to the change in my hobby life when I aquired my first oscilloscope. You still enjoy the hobby with no oscilloscope, but when you get one you feel like you'd been blind before, and can't imagine life without it. The other day I looked at the 39.5MHz IF in an old television tuned to a UK TV station signal. I could see the video and sound subcarriers clearly identifiable. Tuning the TV I could move the signals out of the Surface Acoustic Wave (SAW) filter skirts and get a good idea of the shape of the filter's response curve. Before I might have read about that stuff in theory, now I can actually see it! Under many cases it will be possible to identify any spurious signals generated within the analyser itself. The input attenuator (in my case 0-63dB in 1dB steps) allows quite accurate measurement of the magnitude of frequency components, and also allows reduction of strong signals. In many cases this can be used to eliminate many of the spuri. Or, if the signal being monitored is a VFO output for example, or another variable frequency source, changing the frequency will often identify the spurious signals. For example I might increase the VFO frequency, causing the fundamental frequency peak to move left to right on the screen. If I see some other peak move in the opposite direction, or if I see a peak moving across the display very quickly, I know I've seen a spurious response. Much of the spurious response problems come at the high end of the frequency coverage range. For lower frequency work one could insert an additional easily-constructed low pass filter and eliminate much of the problem. So yes, no doubt the more effort you put in and the more complex the spectrum analyser, the better the results obtainable. But even with a simple analyser there's so much you can do. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. I could be wrong but I thought the FCC requirement was 40dB minimum harmonic suppression, or 30dB for transmitters with output powers 5W or less? That's well within the range of even a simple spectrum analyser. I doubt I'd have any problem ensuring an HF QRP rig met FCC requirements with my analsyer. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. I'm already working on my Mk2 analyser. Not because I'm unhappy with the measurements of the Mk1, but because I had so much fun with it, ending up building it for its own sake, and not ready to stop having fun yet. The simple rule of thumb is: 1. If the performance of your test equipment is better - in whatever ways are important for the measurement in hand - than the performance of the equipment under test (EUT) then the results will be reliable enough for amateur work. 2. If your test equipment is comparable with the EUT, you'll get useful indications. 3. If your test equipment is worse than the EUT, what you're actually testing is the testgear itself! You'll learn nothing useful about the EUT, and may actually be misled. So aim for zone 1, settle for zone 2 if you must, but stay out of zone 3. Not sure I agree completely - if the EUT is *supposed* to be in your zone 3, but is not functioning properly, then even a simple spectrum analyser could help you find the fault. It wouldn't help you make precise receiver performance measurements on it when you corrected the fault, but would help with diagnosis. [...] Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. Don't forget the W7ZOI analyser covers 0-70MHz only. You can double that with a NE602 design. Nevertheless I liked the W7ZOI analyser a lot. For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). Sounded interesting, but a google search as described turned up 0 results. In fact a search for S57MV on its own got 0 results. Do you have any other references? 73 Hans G0UPL -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ... Avery Fineman wrote: In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: [...] But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. I think it does much better than just give general indications. It certainly has opened my eyes to a whole new world inaccessible to me before having the analyser. It's comparable to the change in my hobby life when I aquired my first oscilloscope. You still enjoy the hobby with no oscilloscope, but when you get one you feel like you'd been blind before, and can't imagine life without it. The other day I looked at the 39.5MHz IF in an old television tuned to a UK TV station signal. I could see the video and sound subcarriers clearly identifiable. Tuning the TV I could move the signals out of the Surface Acoustic Wave (SAW) filter skirts and get a good idea of the shape of the filter's response curve. Before I might have read about that stuff in theory, now I can actually see it! Under many cases it will be possible to identify any spurious signals generated within the analyser itself. The input attenuator (in my case 0-63dB in 1dB steps) allows quite accurate measurement of the magnitude of frequency components, and also allows reduction of strong signals. In many cases this can be used to eliminate many of the spuri. Or, if the signal being monitored is a VFO output for example, or another variable frequency source, changing the frequency will often identify the spurious signals. For example I might increase the VFO frequency, causing the fundamental frequency peak to move left to right on the screen. If I see some other peak move in the opposite direction, or if I see a peak moving across the display very quickly, I know I've seen a spurious response. Much of the spurious response problems come at the high end of the frequency coverage range. For lower frequency work one could insert an additional easily-constructed low pass filter and eliminate much of the problem. So yes, no doubt the more effort you put in and the more complex the spectrum analyser, the better the results obtainable. But even with a simple analyser there's so much you can do. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. I could be wrong but I thought the FCC requirement was 40dB minimum harmonic suppression, or 30dB for transmitters with output powers 5W or less? That's well within the range of even a simple spectrum analyser. I doubt I'd have any problem ensuring an HF QRP rig met FCC requirements with my analsyer. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. I'm already working on my Mk2 analyser. Not because I'm unhappy with the measurements of the Mk1, but because I had so much fun with it, ending up building it for its own sake, and not ready to stop having fun yet. The simple rule of thumb is: 1. If the performance of your test equipment is better - in whatever ways are important for the measurement in hand - than the performance of the equipment under test (EUT) then the results will be reliable enough for amateur work. 2. If your test equipment is comparable with the EUT, you'll get useful indications. 3. If your test equipment is worse than the EUT, what you're actually testing is the testgear itself! You'll learn nothing useful about the EUT, and may actually be misled. So aim for zone 1, settle for zone 2 if you must, but stay out of zone 3. Not sure I agree completely - if the EUT is *supposed* to be in your zone 3, but is not functioning properly, then even a simple spectrum analyser could help you find the fault. It wouldn't help you make precise receiver performance measurements on it when you corrected the fault, but would help with diagnosis. [...] Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. Don't forget the W7ZOI analyser covers 0-70MHz only. You can double that with a NE602 design. Nevertheless I liked the W7ZOI analyser a lot. For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). Sounded interesting, but a google search as described turned up 0 results. In fact a search for S57MV on its own got 0 results. Do you have any other references? 73 Hans G0UPL -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Ian White, G3SEK wrote:
For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). I just tried the suggested Google search, and came up dry -- using both spellings: analyzer/analyser. Since I cut-and-pasted "S57MV" from your post, I doubt that it was a spelling error. Any suggestions? -- I don't need speed-reading, I need speed-bookcase-building. (with thanks to Nancy Lebovitz) |
Ian White, G3SEK wrote:
For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). I just tried the suggested Google search, and came up dry -- using both spellings: analyzer/analyser. Since I cut-and-pasted "S57MV" from your post, I doubt that it was a spelling error. Any suggestions? -- I don't need speed-reading, I need speed-bookcase-building. (with thanks to Nancy Lebovitz) |
Hans Summers wrote:
[snipped much on which we either agree, or can amicably agree to differ] Certainly, build something rather than nothing - as Hans says, it will really open your eyes! For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). Sounded interesting, but a google search as described turned up 0 results. In fact a search for S57MV on its own got 0 results. Do you have any other references? Sorry, it was S53MV. A lot of the older information has disappeared off the web, and is now only to be found on the site of VHF Communications magazine where SM3MV's original article appeared. http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/articles.htm Since the article is said to be too big for the web site (and the web articles have no diagrams anyway) it seems that you cannot learn anything useful about this excellent project without buying a back-issue of the magazine :-( -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Hans Summers wrote:
[snipped much on which we either agree, or can amicably agree to differ] Certainly, build something rather than nothing - as Hans says, it will really open your eyes! For a VHF/UHF HB design - which is obviously going to be a lot more complex, and really is an advanced project - search Google for: "S57MV spectrum analyser" (without the quotes, and also look for the American "analyzer" spelling). Sounded interesting, but a google search as described turned up 0 results. In fact a search for S57MV on its own got 0 results. Do you have any other references? Sorry, it was S53MV. A lot of the older information has disappeared off the web, and is now only to be found on the site of VHF Communications magazine where SM3MV's original article appeared. http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/articles.htm Since the article is said to be too big for the web site (and the web articles have no diagrams anyway) it seems that you cannot learn anything useful about this excellent project without buying a back-issue of the magazine :-( -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes: Avery Fineman wrote: In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. I'm an amateur, not a professional, but have paid my dues in this area. Okay. Then allow me to state that I've been a professional in radio and electronics for 51 years AND an electronics hobbyist in my free time for longer. I've not "paid any dues" in the latter area except a lot of hours spent having fun in my workshop.. My experience with the NE602 type is that it's great as a "fun" analyser, but you can very quickly outgrow it. Yes, it will give you general indications, like "Is that oscillator working?" or "Is that final output stage generating harmonics?" Those indications even have some numbers of MHz and dB attached. ? What is wrong with that? An NE602 or SA602 is just a means to an end. It's a nice little IC that allows some balanced mixing AND as the active device for the local oscillator. A single IC, dual function. Used within its limitations it is AS ACCURATE AS ANY OTHER DEVICE. NO analyzer means NO results. Of course I'd rather have that much information than no analyser at all. (Len, if you happen not to mention something that is completely obvious, I still assume that you're completely aware of it. Kindly extend the same courtesy to me.) I have NO idea of what is "completely obvious" to anyone. Everyone's mileage varies. But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. Let's not lump all the "non-pro" analyzers into the "fun-toy" category, okay? Sorry, but I can quickly categorize/calibrate/check ANY analyzer as to whether or not whatever it shows is "real" or internal. There's lots of written information available on how to do that...and a bit of thinking will reveal the very same thing. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. Sorry, you've drifted outside of specific spectrum analyzer use. The harmonic content of ALL transmitters can be measured WITHOUT any spectrum analyzer, as accurately (in most cases moreso) as with an analyzer. A spectrum analyzer is much much faster in that application, but harmonic content measurement is not dependent on its use. Good operation and good specifications in homebrew designs are as good as the designer, as good as the other equipment for calibration and characterisation that is used. It's all together. It's only "damned hard to guarantee" if there is nothing available to ascertain operation and calibration. That can exist equally well for an HP 141 plug-in or one that you term a "fun" NE602. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! Good grief! There's plenty of instances in metrology where actual measurements are done to a higher level than what each piece of test equipment can do. Time and frequency measurement is a good area for examples in that, other areas' explanations will take more time to describe than I have at the moment. EVERY single piece of test equipment MUST be used within its limitations. That INCLUDES your "HP 141" racks, Anritsu analyzers, etc., and whatever else is there. The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. Nonsense. Each and every "user" had damn well pay close attention to using whatever they have within its equipment's limitations. That holds true for the best of Rhode & Schwarz wares AND for the "fun" SA602/NE602 analyzers. Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? That comment was mostly to make the point that the cleanest display is the most real. You're going to have to explain that better..."clean" is highly subjective and subjective judgement in any metrology effort is a no-no. The absolute standard of comparison is the perfect spectrum analyser with no spurious responses. Okay, show me one. They must be in storage with bottles of the "universal solvent" and other fine ideas... When I built the first "fun" analyser (which had to wait until the hardware collection had expanded to include a good oscilloscope) I found it quite disappointing, because it still wasn't showing me reality. I was still having to think "Now if I had a *good* spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" That's nice. But you are drifting towards extreme categorization of equipment. Simple, low parts count home projects are "fun" (in your terms, like toys or something for recreation. The only "GOOD" gear is semi-pro, expensive, etc., etc., etc. Out in the workshop, the real hardware adds real-life numbers to the ideas, and also checks that there isn't anything happening that I hadn't thought of. In MY workshop, nearly everything I do and use is pure FUN. If I use them within their limitations, then they give me REAL numbers as valid as anything I use from a small pro lab's $400K capital collection. In this particular case, there does exist a very good, reliable, second-level design (the W7ZOI). It's a little more expensive to build than the entry-level stuff, but not significantly more complex. It's very well designed, so while you're building it you'll learn some very useful things from a top amateur (and former professional) RF designer. It's also modular, so you can build it in stages, and upgrade various parts as and when you want. Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. So...bottom line is that spectrum analyzers with NE602s in them are kiddie toys useable only for entertainment and recreation?!? Not a good characterization, that. Used within its limitations, the "kiddie" instrument is as accurate as anything else. Input level displayed linearity is a direct function of the successive detection logarithmic chip used in the back end...has very little to do with the front end. Resolution is again a back-end concern and is a direct function of the filtering of the final IF in the analyzer...and the sweep rate and sweep span (all related). If you want linearity in the horizontal as to frequency, then you have to pay a lot of attention to VCO (or equivalent) control and that has little to do with messing about with the front end mixer. The front end of any spectrum analyzer is the place where your spurious responses are generated, if any at all. If you are going for the very best in higher-level inputs then you absolutely need a high- IM-rated mixer, which also probably needs a high-level LO. Both of those cost a great deal of money...and the higher input level free of spurious responses may or may not be worth it. It may not be worth it when one of those "fun" analyzers don't exhibit any false signals or spurii below a specific input level. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person formerly an Associate Editor with HAM RADIO Magazine PS: I once or twice used an HP 141. It always had "ordinary" oscilloscope plug-ins in it to make it overall an oscilloscope. Shrug. |
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes: Avery Fineman wrote: In article , "Ian White, G3SEK" writes: A spectrum analyser is simply a frequency-swept receiver with a dB-scaled output to a screen. To give meaningful results, that receiver must have a very high dynamic range with very low spurious responses. "Meaningful results" are subjective to the hobbyist. I'm an amateur, not a professional, but have paid my dues in this area. Okay. Then allow me to state that I've been a professional in radio and electronics for 51 years AND an electronics hobbyist in my free time for longer. I've not "paid any dues" in the latter area except a lot of hours spent having fun in my workshop.. My experience with the NE602 type is that it's great as a "fun" analyser, but you can very quickly outgrow it. Yes, it will give you general indications, like "Is that oscillator working?" or "Is that final output stage generating harmonics?" Those indications even have some numbers of MHz and dB attached. ? What is wrong with that? An NE602 or SA602 is just a means to an end. It's a nice little IC that allows some balanced mixing AND as the active device for the local oscillator. A single IC, dual function. Used within its limitations it is AS ACCURATE AS ANY OTHER DEVICE. NO analyzer means NO results. Of course I'd rather have that much information than no analyser at all. (Len, if you happen not to mention something that is completely obvious, I still assume that you're completely aware of it. Kindly extend the same courtesy to me.) I have NO idea of what is "completely obvious" to anyone. Everyone's mileage varies. But once you have a "fun" analyser giving you basic indications, it inevitably draws you into asking more searching questions, like "How much of a harmonic problem do I really have?" That's where fun analysers come unstuck, because you don't know how much of those indicated harmonics are real, and how much is being generated in the analyser itself. Let's not lump all the "non-pro" analyzers into the "fun-toy" category, okay? Sorry, but I can quickly categorize/calibrate/check ANY analyzer as to whether or not whatever it shows is "real" or internal. There's lots of written information available on how to do that...and a bit of thinking will reveal the very same thing. An important practical crunch point for amateurs is "Does this transmitter meet the FCC requirement for 60dB minimum harmonic suppression?" Now you discover the big difference between 60-70dB on-screen dynamic range, and 60-70dB *spurious-free* dynamic range. The first is easy - the second is damned hard to guarantee in a HB design. Sorry, you've drifted outside of specific spectrum analyzer use. The harmonic content of ALL transmitters can be measured WITHOUT any spectrum analyzer, as accurately (in most cases moreso) as with an analyzer. A spectrum analyzer is much much faster in that application, but harmonic content measurement is not dependent on its use. Good operation and good specifications in homebrew designs are as good as the designer, as good as the other equipment for calibration and characterisation that is used. It's all together. It's only "damned hard to guarantee" if there is nothing available to ascertain operation and calibration. That can exist equally well for an HP 141 plug-in or one that you term a "fun" NE602. If you get to that point - and many people will - then you'll wish you'd taken the extra trouble to build an analyser that you could trust a little more. The NE602 type categorically will not hack that kind of problem, because the equipment under test is probably much cleaner than it is! Good grief! There's plenty of instances in metrology where actual measurements are done to a higher level than what each piece of test equipment can do. Time and frequency measurement is a good area for examples in that, other areas' explanations will take more time to describe than I have at the moment. EVERY single piece of test equipment MUST be used within its limitations. That INCLUDES your "HP 141" racks, Anritsu analyzers, etc., and whatever else is there. The W7ZOI type may just do it, with care, and the same is true of the 141 generation. Only the best modern analysers will ace the problem without needing careful attention from the user. Nonsense. Each and every "user" had damn well pay close attention to using whatever they have within its equipment's limitations. That holds true for the best of Rhode & Schwarz wares AND for the "fun" SA602/NE602 analyzers. Very easily, in the same ways as you test a receiver for strong-signal handling.... but most graphically by looking at the same spectra with two analysers side-by-side. The one showing fewest signals is the one you can rely on most. Have you priced the used spectrum analyzers lately? Do you expect others to have ready access to "another" spectrum analyzer? That comment was mostly to make the point that the cleanest display is the most real. You're going to have to explain that better..."clean" is highly subjective and subjective judgement in any metrology effort is a no-no. The absolute standard of comparison is the perfect spectrum analyser with no spurious responses. Okay, show me one. They must be in storage with bottles of the "universal solvent" and other fine ideas... When I built the first "fun" analyser (which had to wait until the hardware collection had expanded to include a good oscilloscope) I found it quite disappointing, because it still wasn't showing me reality. I was still having to think "Now if I had a *good* spectrum analyser, what would it probably be showing me here?" That's nice. But you are drifting towards extreme categorization of equipment. Simple, low parts count home projects are "fun" (in your terms, like toys or something for recreation. The only "GOOD" gear is semi-pro, expensive, etc., etc., etc. Out in the workshop, the real hardware adds real-life numbers to the ideas, and also checks that there isn't anything happening that I hadn't thought of. In MY workshop, nearly everything I do and use is pure FUN. If I use them within their limitations, then they give me REAL numbers as valid as anything I use from a small pro lab's $400K capital collection. In this particular case, there does exist a very good, reliable, second-level design (the W7ZOI). It's a little more expensive to build than the entry-level stuff, but not significantly more complex. It's very well designed, so while you're building it you'll learn some very useful things from a top amateur (and former professional) RF designer. It's also modular, so you can build it in stages, and upgrade various parts as and when you want. Bottom line: having played with the entry-level NE602 stuff myself, my advice would be: * If you only want a "fun" analyser, then go for it and have fun. * But if you want the analyser as a tool to help you develop good radio gear, go direct to the W7ZOI design. So...bottom line is that spectrum analyzers with NE602s in them are kiddie toys useable only for entertainment and recreation?!? Not a good characterization, that. Used within its limitations, the "kiddie" instrument is as accurate as anything else. Input level displayed linearity is a direct function of the successive detection logarithmic chip used in the back end...has very little to do with the front end. Resolution is again a back-end concern and is a direct function of the filtering of the final IF in the analyzer...and the sweep rate and sweep span (all related). If you want linearity in the horizontal as to frequency, then you have to pay a lot of attention to VCO (or equivalent) control and that has little to do with messing about with the front end mixer. The front end of any spectrum analyzer is the place where your spurious responses are generated, if any at all. If you are going for the very best in higher-level inputs then you absolutely need a high- IM-rated mixer, which also probably needs a high-level LO. Both of those cost a great deal of money...and the higher input level free of spurious responses may or may not be worth it. It may not be worth it when one of those "fun" analyzers don't exhibit any false signals or spurii below a specific input level. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person formerly an Associate Editor with HAM RADIO Magazine PS: I once or twice used an HP 141. It always had "ordinary" oscilloscope plug-ins in it to make it overall an oscilloscope. Shrug. |
John Miles wrote in message ...
In article , says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html |
John Miles wrote in message ...
In article , says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html |
Mario ) writes:
John Miles wrote in message ... In article , says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html For that matter, Wes Hayward has his own webpage, and he has some material related to the project at: http://users.easystreet.com/w7zoi/SA.html According to that page, one can download the original articles from the ARRL website, in pdf format, but doing a search over there, I don't get a hit on the articles. I don't see it in the 2001 Handbook (the only recent one I have), but perhaps it's in that new Hayward book, "Experimental Methods in RF Design" but I've yet to order my copy. And of course, Kanga, http://www.bright.net/~kanga/kanga has boards for the project, and they have some additional information on their website. Michael VE2BVW |
Mario ) writes:
John Miles wrote in message ... In article , says... hi, where can i find practical high fre spectrum analyser circuit? thanks The W7ZOI homebrew spectrum analyzer article is not to be missed: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9808035.pdf (part 1) http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/pdf/9809037.pdf (part 2) You'll find this design vastly superior to the "poor man's spectrum analyzer" projects out there that are based on CATV tuners. Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html For that matter, Wes Hayward has his own webpage, and he has some material related to the project at: http://users.easystreet.com/w7zoi/SA.html According to that page, one can download the original articles from the ARRL website, in pdf format, but doing a search over there, I don't get a hit on the articles. I don't see it in the 2001 Handbook (the only recent one I have), but perhaps it's in that new Hayward book, "Experimental Methods in RF Design" but I've yet to order my copy. And of course, Kanga, http://www.bright.net/~kanga/kanga has boards for the project, and they have some additional information on their website. Michael VE2BVW |
In article ,
says... Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html Mmm. Postscript documents. Real useful. NOT... :( Sounds like an interesting variation on the project, but without documentation in a standard, open format, his audience is going to be limited. -- jm ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam ------------------------------------------------------ |
In article ,
says... Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html Mmm. Postscript documents. Real useful. NOT... :( Sounds like an interesting variation on the project, but without documentation in a standard, open format, his audience is going to be limited. -- jm ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam ------------------------------------------------------ |
"John Miles" wrote in message ... In article , says... Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html Mmm. Postscript documents. Real useful. NOT... :( Sounds like an interesting variation on the project, but without documentation in a standard, open format, his audience is going to be limited. Postscript is about as open and standard a format as you will find. http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ has free ghostscript viewers for most popular platforms (windows, Linux, Mac, OS/2, VMS, etc). - 73 Bob W7OV |
"John Miles" wrote in message ... In article , says... Here is an updated version of the W7ZOI spectrum analyzer on the same site: http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/spec/index.html Mmm. Postscript documents. Real useful. NOT... :( Sounds like an interesting variation on the project, but without documentation in a standard, open format, his audience is going to be limited. Postscript is about as open and standard a format as you will find. http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ has free ghostscript viewers for most popular platforms (windows, Linux, Mac, OS/2, VMS, etc). - 73 Bob W7OV |
I have a HP 141 series device which is reasonable from the point of view of
strong signal handling. It is surprisingly easy to produce intermodulation effects at levels lower than you would expect. A "forest" of signals at -20 dBm will produce IM effects by the additive effect of all their amplitudes.(you could easily get this from a 40M dipole at night for example) In fact, my friend Rod Green has done an article for QEX on a "figure of merit" device to test receiver strong signal handling which consists of a "comb generator" with harmonics every 20 KHz, and a bandpass filter covering the band of interest - say 7.0 to 7.2 MHz. At a comb level of -20dBm most receivers will be overwhelmed. Richard If I were designing a spectrum analyzer for the electronic instrument market, I would shoot for at least meeting Hewlett-Packard Agilent or Rhode&Schwarz specifications...R&D budget willing. That's a bit steep for the hobbyist area. The problem is that real incoming signals and the analyser's spurious responses all look very much the same on the screen. When you can't trust what the analyser says, it becomes very hard to understand what's really going on. Sigh. A spectrum analyzer, almost ALL of them, is one of the easier instruments to characterize from the outside, using other instruments. Frequency span, logarithmic linearity, passband of the final IF are all relatively easy to determine from the outside. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
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