Persuing a Career in Electronics, HELP!
 

I am not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but i
figure its worth a shot. OK, first of all i have been away from radio
for a few years (regretably) my call is KB2YFH. Anyway, i got my
ticket when i was 16 i think or maybe younger... My question is i am
getting older and still have nothing but a H.S diploma and dead-end
jobs to show for... so, obviously i would like to continue my
education. I realize now that my only true love was fixing and
tinkering with my old radio equipment. I would like to know if someone
could tell me what career path i should take that will qualify me and
give me the experience i need in working with electronic equipment...
preferably Wireless communications, RF circuts ... you know all the
skills used to diagnose and repair such things as amateur transievers
etc. I was licensed in NJ, but recently moved to Florida's Space
Coast (Melbourne) where i am happy to see that ham radio is alive and
thriving. I assume taking courses in electronic engineering would be
in the right direction, but i am not sure exactly what i should do. If
anyone could please give me some advice on what type of schooling i
should look for, and if possible what schools are good for what i am
looking for it would be greatly aprreciated. Thank you and i look
forward to getting back on the air ASAP.

If your main interest is in diagnosis and repair, I suggest you look
into an Electronic Engineering Technology (EET) curriculum. Courses and
degrees are offered by a lot of community colleges, as well as technical
schools. Visit your local community college and have a talk with a
counselor there -- he or she can give you a lot more information about
what they offer, what the course content is like, and the kinds of jobs
it'll prepare you for.

An Electrical Engineering (EE) degree at a college or university
prepares you more to do design, rather than repair. A BSEE (Batchelor of
Science in Electrical Engineering) curriculum involves a lot more
mathematics than an ASEET (Associate of Science in Electronic
Engineering Technology) or BSEET degree. If you follow a traditional
order of course work, you'll be in a BSEE program quite a while before
you get to much that you recognize as electronics, since you'll usually
start with calculus, physics, chemistry, and, yes, English. This is to
lay the ground work for you to be able to understand electronics at the
necessary level when it's introduced later in the program. In contrast,
EET courses are a lot more hands-on, and get to the basic subject matter
earlier. But it doesn't cover the material in as much depth as in an EE
program.

While community colleges seldom or never grant a BSEE degree, they
generally offer quite a number of courses that can be transferred to a
full college or university toward a BSEE degree, if that's your choice.
Those courses are likely to be non-electronics courses, though, like the
physics, chemistry, math, and English I mentioned.

You might start along one path and decide later on the other. That's
fine, although you should be aware that quite a number of courses in one
program might not directly transfer for credit into the other. The
counselor can give you the straight story about all that.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Justin wrote:
I am not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but i
figure its worth a shot. OK, first of all i have been away from radio
for a few years (regretably) my call is KB2YFH. Anyway, i got my
ticket when i was 16 i think or maybe younger... My question is i am
getting older and still have nothing but a H.S diploma and dead-end
jobs to show for... so, obviously i would like to continue my
education. I realize now that my only true love was fixing and
tinkering with my old radio equipment. I would like to know if someone
could tell me what career path i should take that will qualify me and
give me the experience i need in working with electronic equipment...
preferably Wireless communications, RF circuts ... you know all the
skills used to diagnose and repair such things as amateur transievers
etc. I was licensed in NJ, but recently moved to Florida's Space
Coast (Melbourne) where i am happy to see that ham radio is alive and
thriving. I assume taking courses in electronic engineering would be
in the right direction, but i am not sure exactly what i should do. If
anyone could please give me some advice on what type of schooling i
should look for, and if possible what schools are good for what i am
looking for it would be greatly aprreciated. Thank you and i look
forward to getting back on the air ASAP.

If your main interest is in diagnosis and repair, I suggest you look
into an Electronic Engineering Technology (EET) curriculum. Courses and
degrees are offered by a lot of community colleges, as well as technical
schools. Visit your local community college and have a talk with a
counselor there -- he or she can give you a lot more information about
what they offer, what the course content is like, and the kinds of jobs
it'll prepare you for.

An Electrical Engineering (EE) degree at a college or university
prepares you more to do design, rather than repair. A BSEE (Batchelor of
Science in Electrical Engineering) curriculum involves a lot more
mathematics than an ASEET (Associate of Science in Electronic
Engineering Technology) or BSEET degree. If you follow a traditional
order of course work, you'll be in a BSEE program quite a while before
you get to much that you recognize as electronics, since you'll usually
start with calculus, physics, chemistry, and, yes, English. This is to
lay the ground work for you to be able to understand electronics at the
necessary level when it's introduced later in the program. In contrast,
EET courses are a lot more hands-on, and get to the basic subject matter
earlier. But it doesn't cover the material in as much depth as in an EE
program.

While community colleges seldom or never grant a BSEE degree, they
generally offer quite a number of courses that can be transferred to a
full college or university toward a BSEE degree, if that's your choice.
Those courses are likely to be non-electronics courses, though, like the
physics, chemistry, math, and English I mentioned.

You might start along one path and decide later on the other. That's
fine, although you should be aware that quite a number of courses in one
program might not directly transfer for credit into the other. The
counselor can give you the straight story about all that.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Justin wrote:
I am not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but i
figure its worth a shot. OK, first of all i have been away from radio
for a few years (regretably) my call is KB2YFH. Anyway, i got my
ticket when i was 16 i think or maybe younger... My question is i am
getting older and still have nothing but a H.S diploma and dead-end
jobs to show for... so, obviously i would like to continue my
education. I realize now that my only true love was fixing and
tinkering with my old radio equipment. I would like to know if someone
could tell me what career path i should take that will qualify me and
give me the experience i need in working with electronic equipment...
preferably Wireless communications, RF circuts ... you know all the
skills used to diagnose and repair such things as amateur transievers
etc. I was licensed in NJ, but recently moved to Florida's Space
Coast (Melbourne) where i am happy to see that ham radio is alive and
thriving. I assume taking courses in electronic engineering would be
in the right direction, but i am not sure exactly what i should do. If
anyone could please give me some advice on what type of schooling i
should look for, and if possible what schools are good for what i am
looking for it would be greatly aprreciated. Thank you and i look
forward to getting back on the air ASAP.

Roy Lewallen wrote:
A BSEE (Batchelor of
Science in Electrical Engineering) curriculum

That should, of course, be Bachelor.

How embarrassing. Guess those English for Dumb Engineers courses weren't
quite enough. . . needed a course in Using a Spelling Checker.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:
A BSEE (Batchelor of
Science in Electrical Engineering) curriculum

That should, of course, be Bachelor.

How embarrassing. Guess those English for Dumb Engineers courses weren't
quite enough. . . needed a course in Using a Spelling Checker.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
snip
If you follow a traditional
order of course work, you'll be in a BSEE program quite a while before
you get to much that you recognize as electronics, since you'll usually
start with calculus, physics, chemistry, and, yes, English. This is to
lay the ground work for you to be able to understand electronics at the
necessary level when it's introduced later in the program.

However this doesn't stop you from taking a more hands on electronics
course each year or each half year. Usually you will get a little leeway
in what order you need to take classes.

Another route to go is a trade school. A friend went to ITT and loved the
instruction method there. 2-3 hours of theory followed by 3 hours of
application. He now works for Altera on there Nios Development. System.

I was going to go to my local community college this coming fall but with
budget cuts they dropped over 100 courses which all seem to have come from
their Physics and Engineering departments. There isn't a single
"Electronics"
course offered.


Neo-Volt

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
snip
If you follow a traditional
order of course work, you'll be in a BSEE program quite a while before
you get to much that you recognize as electronics, since you'll usually
start with calculus, physics, chemistry, and, yes, English. This is to
lay the ground work for you to be able to understand electronics at the
necessary level when it's introduced later in the program.

However this doesn't stop you from taking a more hands on electronics
course each year or each half year. Usually you will get a little leeway
in what order you need to take classes.

Another route to go is a trade school. A friend went to ITT and loved the
instruction method there. 2-3 hours of theory followed by 3 hours of
application. He now works for Altera on there Nios Development. System.

I was going to go to my local community college this coming fall but with
budget cuts they dropped over 100 courses which all seem to have come from
their Physics and Engineering departments. There isn't a single
"Electronics"
course offered.


Neo-Volt

Amen on the grammar comment. I often look at resumes for computer
programming positions. Good programmers are notoriously meticulous
about things like spelling, grammar and punctuation. It sort of goes
with the territory. So, if I see sloppy, disorganized language, I
figure I'm not dealing with a Real Hacker. A big red flag for me is
misspelled or miscapitalized names of industry brands, names or terms,
such as C, UNIX, uC, kHz, etc., especially if the applicant claims to
have experience in those areas.

To address the poster's original question, all of the advice I've seen
in the responses is good. What I'd add from my own experience is:

1. Don't hesitate to cite nonprofessional experience if it applies.
I've designed and built some nifty projects and published a few on
the web and elsewhere. I put those in a section of my resume
labeled "hobby achievements".

2. I have the utmost respect for schooling and degrees but I am
self-taught and so are some of my coworkers. Small companies tend
to focus more on results and less on credenitals, so if you're in a
position where you have more abilities than you can prove on paper,
you might want to try small companies.

3. If you don't get a job you wanted, ask that employer specifically
what education you should pursue, and if you really want the job,
come back in a year or so and try again. That makes a tremendous
impression and I've been in on at least one such hiring.

4. Whatever education you pursue, do lots of hands-on projects on your
own. They're fun, but they're also an important part of your
education. It's one thing to write "10 watts" as the answer to a
textbook problem on power supplies and another thing altogether to
put your finger on a resistor that is dissipating 10 watts, or to
observe how quickly a battery runs down under that kind of load.

Good luck to the original poster or anyone else who is interested in
electronics. It's fun and exciting stuff!

David

Amen on the grammar comment. I often look at resumes for computer
programming positions. Good programmers are notoriously meticulous
about things like spelling, grammar and punctuation. It sort of goes
with the territory. So, if I see sloppy, disorganized language, I
figure I'm not dealing with a Real Hacker. A big red flag for me is
misspelled or miscapitalized names of industry brands, names or terms,
such as C, UNIX, uC, kHz, etc., especially if the applicant claims to
have experience in those areas.

To address the poster's original question, all of the advice I've seen
in the responses is good. What I'd add from my own experience is:

1. Don't hesitate to cite nonprofessional experience if it applies.
I've designed and built some nifty projects and published a few on
the web and elsewhere. I put those in a section of my resume
labeled "hobby achievements".

2. I have the utmost respect for schooling and degrees but I am
self-taught and so are some of my coworkers. Small companies tend
to focus more on results and less on credenitals, so if you're in a
position where you have more abilities than you can prove on paper,
you might want to try small companies.

3. If you don't get a job you wanted, ask that employer specifically
what education you should pursue, and if you really want the job,
come back in a year or so and try again. That makes a tremendous
impression and I've been in on at least one such hiring.

4. Whatever education you pursue, do lots of hands-on projects on your
own. They're fun, but they're also an important part of your
education. It's one thing to write "10 watts" as the answer to a
textbook problem on power supplies and another thing altogether to
put your finger on a resistor that is dissipating 10 watts, or to
observe how quickly a battery runs down under that kind of load.

Good luck to the original poster or anyone else who is interested in
electronics. It's fun and exciting stuff!

David

I'm taking Electronics Engineering Technician at Saint Lawrence College
this fall so I can pursue a similar career. It's a 2 year program, and
it seems to be available at most college's. The starting salary for a
technician is supposed to be about $35,000 CDN. The technologist level
(3 year program) is about $45,000 CDN starting. If you wanted to go
university level it's 4 years plus and the salary is much higher, but
the math level is crazy.

Justin wrote:
I am not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but i
figure its worth a shot. OK, first of all i have been away from radio
for a few years (regretably) my call is KB2YFH. Anyway, i got my
ticket when i was 16 i think or maybe younger... My question is i am
getting older and still have nothing but a H.S diploma and dead-end
jobs to show for... so, obviously i would like to continue my
education. I realize now that my only true love was fixing and
tinkering with my old radio equipment. I would like to know if someone
could tell me what career path i should take that will qualify me and
give me the experience i need in working with electronic equipment...
preferably Wireless communications, RF circuts ... you know all the
skills used to diagnose and repair such things as amateur transievers
etc. I was licensed in NJ, but recently moved to Florida's Space
Coast (Melbourne) where i am happy to see that ham radio is alive and
thriving. I assume taking courses in electronic engineering would be
in the right direction, but i am not sure exactly what i should do. If
anyone could please give me some advice on what type of schooling i
should look for, and if possible what schools are good for what i am
looking for it would be greatly aprreciated. Thank you and i look
forward to getting back on the air ASAP.

I'm taking Electronics Engineering Technician at Saint Lawrence College
this fall so I can pursue a similar career. It's a 2 year program, and
it seems to be available at most college's. The starting salary for a
technician is supposed to be about $35,000 CDN. The technologist level
(3 year program) is about $45,000 CDN starting. If you wanted to go
university level it's 4 years plus and the salary is much higher, but
the math level is crazy.

Justin wrote:
I am not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but i
figure its worth a shot. OK, first of all i have been away from radio
for a few years (regretably) my call is KB2YFH. Anyway, i got my
ticket when i was 16 i think or maybe younger... My question is i am
getting older and still have nothing but a H.S diploma and dead-end
jobs to show for... so, obviously i would like to continue my
education. I realize now that my only true love was fixing and
tinkering with my old radio equipment. I would like to know if someone
could tell me what career path i should take that will qualify me and
give me the experience i need in working with electronic equipment...
preferably Wireless communications, RF circuts ... you know all the
skills used to diagnose and repair such things as amateur transievers
etc. I was licensed in NJ, but recently moved to Florida's Space
Coast (Melbourne) where i am happy to see that ham radio is alive and
thriving. I assume taking courses in electronic engineering would be
in the right direction, but i am not sure exactly what i should do. If
anyone could please give me some advice on what type of schooling i
should look for, and if possible what schools are good for what i am
looking for it would be greatly aprreciated. Thank you and i look
forward to getting back on the air ASAP.

At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE from
attempting
to build a career from technology of any sort, unless it is totally in
that
person's blood. I am talking dedication far in excess one would
normally
give a spouse.

Reasons:

1. There are now very heavy market forces toward globalization. This
means
most technology jobs at the low and medium ends of the scale are being
outsourced
to third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and companies
make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your chances of getting
and keeping an
engineering, software, or electronics job diminish greatly upon
reaching the
age of about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
that a
great amount of luck is called for.

3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a commodity
that at
many large companies treat them with a fair degree of contempt.
Basically,
Dilbert is more true to life than you might think.

4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality. Whatever
dedication
you place into your work will largely wind up in a landfill
eventually.

Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

In your point in life, I would recommend working your way through an
accelerated liberal arts degree at a community college where you could
possibly obtain some credits for life experience. Take practical
courses: accounting, computer programming, 4 units of a foreign
language, and how to teach English as a second language. Take some
arts: pottery is generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus.
Then fill your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the Peoples'
Republic of China.

Good luck,

The Eternal Squire

At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE from
attempting
to build a career from technology of any sort, unless it is totally in
that
person's blood. I am talking dedication far in excess one would
normally
give a spouse.

Reasons:

1. There are now very heavy market forces toward globalization. This
means
most technology jobs at the low and medium ends of the scale are being
outsourced
to third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and companies
make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your chances of getting
and keeping an
engineering, software, or electronics job diminish greatly upon
reaching the
age of about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
that a
great amount of luck is called for.

3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a commodity
that at
many large companies treat them with a fair degree of contempt.
Basically,
Dilbert is more true to life than you might think.

4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality. Whatever
dedication
you place into your work will largely wind up in a landfill
eventually.

Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

In your point in life, I would recommend working your way through an
accelerated liberal arts degree at a community college where you could
possibly obtain some credits for life experience. Take practical
courses: accounting, computer programming, 4 units of a foreign
language, and how to teach English as a second language. Take some
arts: pottery is generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus.
Then fill your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the Peoples'
Republic of China.

Good luck,

The Eternal Squire

At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE from
attempting
to build a career from technology of any sort, unless it is totally in
that
person's blood. I am talking dedication far in excess one would
normally
give a spouse.

Reasons:

1. There are now very heavy market forces toward globalization. This
means
most technology jobs at the low and medium ends of the scale are being
outsourced
to third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and companies
make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your chances of getting
and keeping an
engineering, software, or electronics job diminish greatly upon
reaching the
age of about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
that a
great amount of luck is called for.

3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a commodity
that at
many large companies treat them with a fair degree of contempt.
Basically,
Dilbert is more true to life than you might think.

4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality. Whatever
dedication
you place into your work will largely wind up in a landfill
eventually.

Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

In your point in life, I would recommend working your way through an
accelerated liberal arts degree at a community college where you could
possibly obtain some credits for life experience. Take practical
courses: accounting, computer programming, 4 units of a foreign
language, and how to teach English as a second language. Take some
arts: pottery is generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus.
Then fill your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the Peoples'
Republic of China.

Good luck,

The Eternal Squire

At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE from
attempting
to build a career from technology of any sort, unless it is totally in
that
person's blood. I am talking dedication far in excess one would
normally
give a spouse.

Reasons:

1. There are now very heavy market forces toward globalization. This
means
most technology jobs at the low and medium ends of the scale are being
outsourced
to third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and companies
make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your chances of getting
and keeping an
engineering, software, or electronics job diminish greatly upon
reaching the
age of about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
that a
great amount of luck is called for.

3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a commodity
that at
many large companies treat them with a fair degree of contempt.
Basically,
Dilbert is more true to life than you might think.

4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality. Whatever
dedication
you place into your work will largely wind up in a landfill
eventually.

Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

In your point in life, I would recommend working your way through an
accelerated liberal arts degree at a community college where you could
possibly obtain some credits for life experience. Take practical
courses: accounting, computer programming, 4 units of a foreign
language, and how to teach English as a second language. Take some
arts: pottery is generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus.
Then fill your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the Peoples'
Republic of China.

Good luck,

The Eternal Squire

"TES" == The Eternal Squire writes:

TES At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE
TES from attempting to build a career from technology of any
TES sort, unless it is totally in that person's blood. I am
TES talking dedication far in excess one would normally give a
TES spouse. [...]

Rush Limbaugh is always talking about this kind of bitter advice.
Young people who are interested in getting into the radio business
often ask their more senior counterparts, only to be told, "you better
not get into this business -- you'll get eaten alive". Sure, it's
hard, but if you ask someone who hasn't been successful himself,
that's the kind of answer you'll get. Rush encourages would-be radio
personalities to follow their dreams.

My philosophy on this type of thing is simple, and mirrors Rush's. If
you do what you love, you'll be great at it. If you do what you don't
love, you'll be mediocre. I had a girlfriend who was fascinated with
psychology but took computer programming because she thought that was
where the money would be. When she graduated she got a job she didn't
like, and she didn't do very well, even as others did great in the
same field.

To his credit, Mr. Squire did mention that someone who is passionate
can do fine in his chosen field, even in hard times. I suppose if
you've made up your mind in advance that you will be mediocre no
matter what you do, then you might as well choose a field where
mediocrity is punished the least, but I can't imagine living my life
like that.

TES 1. There are now very heavy market forces toward
TES globalization. This means most technology jobs at the low
TES and medium ends of the scale are being outsourced to
TES third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

Not to slam those countries or the accomplished professionals in them,
but some types of work are more easily outsourced than others. Some
of the most exciting work in technology fields is not exported.

TES 2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and
TES companies make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your
TES chances of getting and keeping an engineering, software, or
TES electronics job diminish greatly upon reaching the age of
TES about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
TES that a great amount of luck is called for.

This type of bitter (though generally true) remark reminds me of the
lament of many single people. Sure, the vast majority of people you
could possibly date won't work out, but you only need to find a few
good fits in your entire life. Why be content to have an ordinary
job, or an ordinary mate? The median age where I work is around 40,
and our most cutting edge research is being done by people in their
50s and 60s. I'm 37 and I think I'm currently the youngest in our
department.

TES 3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a
TES commodity that at many large companies treat them with a fair
TES degree of contempt. Basically, Dilbert is more true to life
TES than you might think.

True enough. Drunk, drooling men in bars are a commodity, too,
receiving a good deal of contempt. When I set out to meet a woman, I
make sure I'm not drunk and drooling (or even in a bar!). Likewise,
when I apply for a job, I emphasize my unique abilities.

TES 4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality.
TES Whatever dedication you place into your work will largely
TES wind up in a landfill eventually.

Our landfills are full of successful products which have made fortunes
for their creators, but I assume you're talking about projects being
scrapped instead of completed. Again, my outlook is far more
positive. If you can make machines bend to your will, your skills
will always be in demand.

TES Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

TES In your point in life, I would recommend working your way
TES through an accelerated liberal arts degree at a community
TES college where you could possibly obtain some credits for life
TES experience. Take practical courses: accounting, computer
TES programming, 4 units of a foreign language, and how to teach
TES English as a second language. Take some arts: pottery is
TES generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus. Then fill
TES your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

TES At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the
TES Peoples' Republic of China.

Wow, this sounds bitter. The original poster expressed enthusiasm and
an interest in a specific field, and now you'd have him put his time
and energy into just about everything else! Every one of the jobs you
mentioned has a dreary place for its mediocre practitioners:
accounting sweatshops, computer code grinders, etc. And for goodness
sake why take up an art just because it's "generally easy"? I'm
starting to wonder if Mr. Squire has ever felt like doing something
and then done it and enjoyed it and felt good about it.

To the original poster of this thread, I'd say, examine your reasons
for pursuing electronics. If it's because you think you'll enjoy it
and really dig in, then do that. If it's just because you heard
that's where the money is these days, take a lesson from my old
girlfriend (and me, and Rush Limbaugh) and do something you're
passionate about.

David

"TES" == The Eternal Squire writes:

TES At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE
TES from attempting to build a career from technology of any
TES sort, unless it is totally in that person's blood. I am
TES talking dedication far in excess one would normally give a
TES spouse. [...]

Rush Limbaugh is always talking about this kind of bitter advice.
Young people who are interested in getting into the radio business
often ask their more senior counterparts, only to be told, "you better
not get into this business -- you'll get eaten alive". Sure, it's
hard, but if you ask someone who hasn't been successful himself,
that's the kind of answer you'll get. Rush encourages would-be radio
personalities to follow their dreams.

My philosophy on this type of thing is simple, and mirrors Rush's. If
you do what you love, you'll be great at it. If you do what you don't
love, you'll be mediocre. I had a girlfriend who was fascinated with
psychology but took computer programming because she thought that was
where the money would be. When she graduated she got a job she didn't
like, and she didn't do very well, even as others did great in the
same field.

To his credit, Mr. Squire did mention that someone who is passionate
can do fine in his chosen field, even in hard times. I suppose if
you've made up your mind in advance that you will be mediocre no
matter what you do, then you might as well choose a field where
mediocrity is punished the least, but I can't imagine living my life
like that.

TES 1. There are now very heavy market forces toward
TES globalization. This means most technology jobs at the low
TES and medium ends of the scale are being outsourced to
TES third-world countries such as India, Mexico, and China.

Not to slam those countries or the accomplished professionals in them,
but some types of work are more easily outsourced than others. Some
of the most exciting work in technology fields is not exported.

TES 2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and
TES companies make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your
TES chances of getting and keeping an engineering, software, or
TES electronics job diminish greatly upon reaching the age of
TES about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
TES that a great amount of luck is called for.

This type of bitter (though generally true) remark reminds me of the
lament of many single people. Sure, the vast majority of people you
could possibly date won't work out, but you only need to find a few
good fits in your entire life. Why be content to have an ordinary
job, or an ordinary mate? The median age where I work is around 40,
and our most cutting edge research is being done by people in their
50s and 60s. I'm 37 and I think I'm currently the youngest in our
department.

TES 3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a
TES commodity that at many large companies treat them with a fair
TES degree of contempt. Basically, Dilbert is more true to life
TES than you might think.

True enough. Drunk, drooling men in bars are a commodity, too,
receiving a good deal of contempt. When I set out to meet a woman, I
make sure I'm not drunk and drooling (or even in a bar!). Likewise,
when I apply for a job, I emphasize my unique abilities.

TES 4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality.
TES Whatever dedication you place into your work will largely
TES wind up in a landfill eventually.

Our landfills are full of successful products which have made fortunes
for their creators, but I assume you're talking about projects being
scrapped instead of completed. Again, my outlook is far more
positive. If you can make machines bend to your will, your skills
will always be in demand.

TES Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.

TES In your point in life, I would recommend working your way
TES through an accelerated liberal arts degree at a community
TES college where you could possibly obtain some credits for life
TES experience. Take practical courses: accounting, computer
TES programming, 4 units of a foreign language, and how to teach
TES English as a second language. Take some arts: pottery is
TES generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus. Then fill
TES your mind with civics, western history, and culture.

TES At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the
TES Peoples' Republic of China.

Wow, this sounds bitter. The original poster expressed enthusiasm and
an interest in a specific field, and now you'd have him put his time
and energy into just about everything else! Every one of the jobs you
mentioned has a dreary place for its mediocre practitioners:
accounting sweatshops, computer code grinders, etc. And for goodness
sake why take up an art just because it's "generally easy"? I'm
starting to wonder if Mr. Squire has ever felt like doing something
and then done it and enjoyed it and felt good about it.

To the original poster of this thread, I'd say, examine your reasons
for pursuing electronics. If it's because you think you'll enjoy it
and really dig in, then do that. If it's just because you heard
that's where the money is these days, take a lesson from my old
girlfriend (and me, and Rush Limbaugh) and do something you're
passionate about.

David

"DBT" == David B. Thomas wrote in message
...
DBT "TES" == The Eternal Squire writes:
DBT
DBT TES At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE
DBT TES from attempting to build a career from technology of any
DBT TES sort, unless it is totally in that person's blood. I am
DBT TES talking dedication far in excess one would normally give a
DBT TES spouse. [...]
DBT
DBT Rush Limbaugh is always talking about this kind of bitter advice.
DBT Young people who are interested in getting into the radio business
DBT often ask their more senior counterparts, only to be told, "you better
DBT not get into this business -- you'll get eaten alive". Sure, it's
DBT hard, but if you ask someone who hasn't been successful himself,
DBT that's the kind of answer you'll get. Rush encourages would-be radio
DBT personalities to follow their dreams.

I listen to Rush from time to time, and while I think he is halfway decent
in his reading of modern geopolitics, I find his liberal-bashing,
homophobia,
emotionalism, and and xenophobia downright nauseating... which is quite
something considering that I'm hetero, happily married, and have a baby
on the way.

DBT My philosophy on this type of thing is simple, and mirrors Rush's. If
DBT you do what you love, you'll be great at it. If you do what you don't
DBT love, you'll be mediocre. I had a girlfriend who was fascinated with
DBT psychology but took computer programming because she thought that was
DBT where the money would be. When she graduated she got a job she didn't
DBT like, and she didn't do very well, even as others did great in the
DBT same field.

While I do not consider Rush to be a proper role model for children and
polite company, what you are saying is true to a point.

But consider this: the 5 percent who enter the field for love wind up to be
the
people who clean up after the 95 percent who enter the field for money, and
those 5 percent would prefer to do something creative rather than clean up
the
team's garbage so the project actually functions. To make things worse,
the
lead is generally a professional manager with nearly non-existent skills in
the
people being supervised, which makes it extremely hard for the manager to
tell who is actually doing the work in a team and who isn't.

This type of nonsense is truer for engineering than for other fields, so
these
are the dues which a person contemplating entering this field should be
prepared to pay.

DBT To his credit, Mr. Squire did mention that someone who is passionate
DBT can do fine in his chosen field, even in hard times. I suppose if
DBT you've made up your mind in advance that you will be mediocre no
DBT matter what you do, then you might as well choose a field where
DBT mediocrity is punished the least, but I can't imagine living my life
DBT like that.

Wake up and smell the coffee! In the real business world, mediocrity is
indeed
punished the least, at least most places. After 15 years of working in tiny
startups
run by corrupt managers, dysfunctional corporate cultures, and co-workers
who
took pleasure in sandbagging the true believers, I snapped. I resigned
without
notice, filed bankruptcy, and in general stayed away from engineering for
about
18 months. I bounced around some shelters across the country, found work
making
sandwhiches and cappucinos, washed dishes, cashiered at Toys R US; and I
also took antidepressants and psychotherapy.

I was prepared to stay like that forever, because I had completely lost my
trust
in the engineering workplace. No matter how talented or passionate I was,
at
the start of that time away my hands started shaking at the mere thought of
writing or debugging another line of code. And people actually gave me far
more common courtesy as a barista and cashier, than I ever obtained as a
software designer up until that point in time.

After 16 months, life was starting to become comfortably routine, my
therapist
noticed this and advised that I take a gamble and shop my resume, just once,
to a headhunter. I did so, and I thought nothing of it for the next 2
weeks.
Imagine my astonishment when a Fortune 500 wanted to fly me down for an
interview,
complete with rent-a-car, an overnight stay at a Sheraton, and 5-star
dining! Their
mission statement placed integrity first above all other things (with, of
course,
a honest days work being consider part of integrity).

During my interview, I was very candid about my experiences without being
overly
negative about them. I basically told them that they got my attention,
that there was
quite I lot I could do for them, and I was ready to take a chance on them if
they were
ready to take a chance on me. Not only did I get the job, but I wound up
being paid
more than I ever did in my life for doing less than I ever did in my life.
I was actually
starting to get bored, so I wound up volunteering to write tools for people,
and I brought
to bear all my small-company experience to bear on this. I've been there
for a few years
now, being allowed to work with very loose supervision, in the process
generating results
equivalent to a small team and gaining a lot of respect in the process.
This has helped
all the other areas of my life: I've actually developed enough confidence
in my career
and in myself to date, marry and start a family.

Moral of the story: Passion for your work is only effective when
reciprocated with
respect and empathy from your work. Following your dream can otherwise
wind up
becoming following through a nightmare.

DBT Not to slam those countries or the accomplished professionals in them,
DBT but some types of work are more easily outsourced than others. Some
DBT of the most exciting work in technology fields is not exported.

Untrue. Untrue. Untrue. These countries have us beat regarding education
of thier
elites, who with world-class MS and Ph.D. degrees based on European
standards
are more than capable of performing technically challenging and original
work.
These people don't need passion, they're satisfied to do as much as the most
passionate person in our country, for a living wage in thier country. And
they're
willing to take the abuse of the workplace because compared to their
cultures,
our expectations of personal fulfillment through work are, quite frankly,
infantile.


TES 2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and
TES companies make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your
TES chances of getting and keeping an engineering, software, or
TES electronics job diminish greatly upon reaching the age of
TES about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
TES that a great amount of luck is called for.

DBT This type of bitter (though generally true) remark reminds me of the
DBT lament of many single people. Sure, the vast majority of people you
DBT could possibly date won't work out, but you only need to find a few
DBT good fits in your entire life. Why be content to have an ordinary
DBT job, or an ordinary mate? The median age where I work is around 40,
DBT and our most cutting edge research is being done by people in their
DBT 50s and 60s. I'm 37 and I think I'm currently the youngest in our
DBT department.

Congratulations on finding yet another workers' paradise, but don't forget
to
look over your shoulder from time to time.


TES 3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a
TES commodity that at many large companies treat them with a fair
TES degree of contempt. Basically, Dilbert is more true to life
TES than you might think.

True enough. Drunk, drooling men in bars are a commodity, too,
receiving a good deal of contempt. When I set out to meet a woman, I
make sure I'm not drunk and drooling (or even in a bar!). Likewise,
when I apply for a job, I emphasize my unique abilities.

Sorry, the comparison doesn't wash. You can be a great, dapper, neat,
sociable, and well dressed engineer, and still be treated with a great
deal of contempt for not having the cojones to go into management, sales,
marketing, or legal. Engineering has actually become an entry level job
in the average organization regardless of size. Anyone who stays in
engineering after a few years is considered to lack ambition and therefore,
after that time, becomes layoff bait.


TES 4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality.
TES Whatever dedication you place into your work will largely
TES wind up in a landfill eventually.

Our landfills are full of successful products which have made fortunes
for their creators, but I assume you're talking about projects being
scrapped instead of completed. Again, my outlook is far more
positive. If you can make machines bend to your will, your skills
will always be in demand.

Again, I ask, where's the immortality? Lawyers make laws. Doctors
prolong life. Soldiers get monuments. Owners make endowments and
fund chairs.

I have decided that I would rather seek immortality through my children
than attempt further to seek immortality in my chosen field. While the
work is great right now, and my passion for my work is back at the
level it used to be, I have learned my lesson: passion has to be tempered
with an awareness of the real world.

DBT
DBT TES Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.
DBT
DBT TES In your point in life, I would recommend working your way
DBT TES through an accelerated liberal arts degree at a community
DBT TES college where you could possibly obtain some credits for life
DBT TES experience. Take practical courses: accounting, computer
DBT TES programming, 4 units of a foreign language, and how to teach
DBT TES English as a second language. Take some arts: pottery is
DBT TES generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus. Then fill
DBT TES your mind with civics, western history, and culture.
DBT
DBT TES At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the
DBT TES Peoples' Republic of China.
DBT
DBT Wow, this sounds bitter. The original poster expressed enthusiasm and
DBT an interest in a specific field, and now you'd have him put his time
DBT and energy into just about everything else! Every one of the jobs you
DBT mentioned has a dreary place for its mediocre practitioners:
DBT accounting sweatshops, computer code grinders, etc. And for goodness
DBT sake why take up an art just because it's "generally easy"? I'm
DBT starting to wonder if Mr. Squire has ever felt like doing something
DBT and then done it and enjoyed it and felt good about it.

Read again what the poster is saying: he's tired of dead end jobs, and he
wants
to do something, anything, that is different, but doesn't exactly know what
that
is. My advice is designed to shake up his life in ways no one, not even
he, can predict... that's what's part of the fun. Consider:

1) A liberal arts college program is the very best way to begin gaining the
perspective needed to decide one's life's ambition. I emphasize some
courses
for the sake of later survival, but these should not dominate the real work
of the
curriculum, which is to develop an understanding of the greater reality of
the
world beyond work.

2) Even dead end jobs can be compensated for through the development of the
pleasures involved in living the life of the mind. These jobs can even be
a good
break from studying and pondering and questioning.

The orignal poster may or may not be able to find a better job after
finishing
a completely technical program of study, but if the technical market is dry
or
his chances of psychological survival are not significantly increased.
However,
a liberal education mixed with a sprinkling of additional survival skills
will make
him far more adaptable to stagnation or even outright adversity.

3) I forgot to mention the other side of finding one or more arts or
activities
which are generally easy to learn... these things are also generally easy
to teach!

Being able to teach a few skills which are easy to master tends to open more
doors
than you might think: it endears one to the vulnerable and gains respect
from
those who care for them.

4) I'm not being cynical regarding teaching English in the Peoples'
Republic. I have
been given the same advice from a dear friend of mine, long since passed
away, who
did this and wound up teaching far more than just English in a classroom.

You're teaching not just about what you speak, but also about your entire
life.
This is an experience which forces one to re-examine one's entire life from
every
angle, while at the same time developing confidence in all the smaller
things about
life by sharing them with other people who consider them exotic and
entertaining.




To the original poster of this thread, I'd say, examine your reasons
for pursuing electronics. If it's because you think you'll enjoy it
and really dig in, then do that. If it's just because you heard
that's where the money is these days, take a lesson from my old
girlfriend (and me, and Rush Limbaugh) and do something you're
passionate about.

David

Our friend, however, has nothing to lose by doing the completely unexpected.
My presciption for him is that he undertake a genuine adventure, with
adequate
preparation up front for all the surprises he will certainly encounter along
the way.

I was on the verge of doing this myself until I took the coward's way out
and gave
engineering one last chance. But I'm happy and reconciled with who I am, I
have
love and family, and in general I am more content even thought I did not
dare take
the road less traveled.


The Eternal Squire

"DBT" == David B. Thomas wrote in message
...
DBT "TES" == The Eternal Squire writes:
DBT
DBT TES At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE
DBT TES from attempting to build a career from technology of any
DBT TES sort, unless it is totally in that person's blood. I am
DBT TES talking dedication far in excess one would normally give a
DBT TES spouse. [...]
DBT
DBT Rush Limbaugh is always talking about this kind of bitter advice.
DBT Young people who are interested in getting into the radio business
DBT often ask their more senior counterparts, only to be told, "you better
DBT not get into this business -- you'll get eaten alive". Sure, it's
DBT hard, but if you ask someone who hasn't been successful himself,
DBT that's the kind of answer you'll get. Rush encourages would-be radio
DBT personalities to follow their dreams.

I listen to Rush from time to time, and while I think he is halfway decent
in his reading of modern geopolitics, I find his liberal-bashing,
homophobia,
emotionalism, and and xenophobia downright nauseating... which is quite
something considering that I'm hetero, happily married, and have a baby
on the way.

DBT My philosophy on this type of thing is simple, and mirrors Rush's. If
DBT you do what you love, you'll be great at it. If you do what you don't
DBT love, you'll be mediocre. I had a girlfriend who was fascinated with
DBT psychology but took computer programming because she thought that was
DBT where the money would be. When she graduated she got a job she didn't
DBT like, and she didn't do very well, even as others did great in the
DBT same field.

While I do not consider Rush to be a proper role model for children and
polite company, what you are saying is true to a point.

But consider this: the 5 percent who enter the field for love wind up to be
the
people who clean up after the 95 percent who enter the field for money, and
those 5 percent would prefer to do something creative rather than clean up
the
team's garbage so the project actually functions. To make things worse,
the
lead is generally a professional manager with nearly non-existent skills in
the
people being supervised, which makes it extremely hard for the manager to
tell who is actually doing the work in a team and who isn't.

This type of nonsense is truer for engineering than for other fields, so
these
are the dues which a person contemplating entering this field should be
prepared to pay.

DBT To his credit, Mr. Squire did mention that someone who is passionate
DBT can do fine in his chosen field, even in hard times. I suppose if
DBT you've made up your mind in advance that you will be mediocre no
DBT matter what you do, then you might as well choose a field where
DBT mediocrity is punished the least, but I can't imagine living my life
DBT like that.

Wake up and smell the coffee! In the real business world, mediocrity is
indeed
punished the least, at least most places. After 15 years of working in tiny
startups
run by corrupt managers, dysfunctional corporate cultures, and co-workers
who
took pleasure in sandbagging the true believers, I snapped. I resigned
without
notice, filed bankruptcy, and in general stayed away from engineering for
about
18 months. I bounced around some shelters across the country, found work
making
sandwhiches and cappucinos, washed dishes, cashiered at Toys R US; and I
also took antidepressants and psychotherapy.

I was prepared to stay like that forever, because I had completely lost my
trust
in the engineering workplace. No matter how talented or passionate I was,
at
the start of that time away my hands started shaking at the mere thought of
writing or debugging another line of code. And people actually gave me far
more common courtesy as a barista and cashier, than I ever obtained as a
software designer up until that point in time.

After 16 months, life was starting to become comfortably routine, my
therapist
noticed this and advised that I take a gamble and shop my resume, just once,
to a headhunter. I did so, and I thought nothing of it for the next 2
weeks.
Imagine my astonishment when a Fortune 500 wanted to fly me down for an
interview,
complete with rent-a-car, an overnight stay at a Sheraton, and 5-star
dining! Their
mission statement placed integrity first above all other things (with, of
course,
a honest days work being consider part of integrity).

During my interview, I was very candid about my experiences without being
overly
negative about them. I basically told them that they got my attention,
that there was
quite I lot I could do for them, and I was ready to take a chance on them if
they were
ready to take a chance on me. Not only did I get the job, but I wound up
being paid
more than I ever did in my life for doing less than I ever did in my life.
I was actually
starting to get bored, so I wound up volunteering to write tools for people,
and I brought
to bear all my small-company experience to bear on this. I've been there
for a few years
now, being allowed to work with very loose supervision, in the process
generating results
equivalent to a small team and gaining a lot of respect in the process.
This has helped
all the other areas of my life: I've actually developed enough confidence
in my career
and in myself to date, marry and start a family.

Moral of the story: Passion for your work is only effective when
reciprocated with
respect and empathy from your work. Following your dream can otherwise
wind up
becoming following through a nightmare.

DBT Not to slam those countries or the accomplished professionals in them,
DBT but some types of work are more easily outsourced than others. Some
DBT of the most exciting work in technology fields is not exported.

Untrue. Untrue. Untrue. These countries have us beat regarding education
of thier
elites, who with world-class MS and Ph.D. degrees based on European
standards
are more than capable of performing technically challenging and original
work.
These people don't need passion, they're satisfied to do as much as the most
passionate person in our country, for a living wage in thier country. And
they're
willing to take the abuse of the workplace because compared to their
cultures,
our expectations of personal fulfillment through work are, quite frankly,
infantile.


TES 2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and
TES companies make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your
TES chances of getting and keeping an engineering, software, or
TES electronics job diminish greatly upon reaching the age of
TES about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
TES that a great amount of luck is called for.

DBT This type of bitter (though generally true) remark reminds me of the
DBT lament of many single people. Sure, the vast majority of people you
DBT could possibly date won't work out, but you only need to find a few
DBT good fits in your entire life. Why be content to have an ordinary
DBT job, or an ordinary mate? The median age where I work is around 40,
DBT and our most cutting edge research is being done by people in their
DBT 50s and 60s. I'm 37 and I think I'm currently the youngest in our
DBT department.

Congratulations on finding yet another workers' paradise, but don't forget
to
look over your shoulder from time to time.


TES 3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a
TES commodity that at many large companies treat them with a fair
TES degree of contempt. Basically, Dilbert is more true to life
TES than you might think.

True enough. Drunk, drooling men in bars are a commodity, too,
receiving a good deal of contempt. When I set out to meet a woman, I
make sure I'm not drunk and drooling (or even in a bar!). Likewise,
when I apply for a job, I emphasize my unique abilities.

Sorry, the comparison doesn't wash. You can be a great, dapper, neat,
sociable, and well dressed engineer, and still be treated with a great
deal of contempt for not having the cojones to go into management, sales,
marketing, or legal. Engineering has actually become an entry level job
in the average organization regardless of size. Anyone who stays in
engineering after a few years is considered to lack ambition and therefore,
after that time, becomes layoff bait.


TES 4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality.
TES Whatever dedication you place into your work will largely
TES wind up in a landfill eventually.

Our landfills are full of successful products which have made fortunes
for their creators, but I assume you're talking about projects being
scrapped instead of completed. Again, my outlook is far more
positive. If you can make machines bend to your will, your skills
will always be in demand.

Again, I ask, where's the immortality? Lawyers make laws. Doctors
prolong life. Soldiers get monuments. Owners make endowments and
fund chairs.

I have decided that I would rather seek immortality through my children
than attempt further to seek immortality in my chosen field. While the
work is great right now, and my passion for my work is back at the
level it used to be, I have learned my lesson: passion has to be tempered
with an awareness of the real world.

DBT
DBT TES Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.
DBT
DBT TES In your point in life, I would recommend working your way
DBT TES through an accelerated liberal arts degree at a community
DBT TES college where you could possibly obtain some credits for life
DBT TES experience. Take practical courses: accounting, computer
DBT TES programming, 4 units of a foreign language, and how to teach
DBT TES English as a second language. Take some arts: pottery is
DBT TES generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus. Then fill
DBT TES your mind with civics, western history, and culture.
DBT
DBT TES At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the
DBT TES Peoples' Republic of China.
DBT
DBT Wow, this sounds bitter. The original poster expressed enthusiasm and
DBT an interest in a specific field, and now you'd have him put his time
DBT and energy into just about everything else! Every one of the jobs you
DBT mentioned has a dreary place for its mediocre practitioners:
DBT accounting sweatshops, computer code grinders, etc. And for goodness
DBT sake why take up an art just because it's "generally easy"? I'm
DBT starting to wonder if Mr. Squire has ever felt like doing something
DBT and then done it and enjoyed it and felt good about it.

Read again what the poster is saying: he's tired of dead end jobs, and he
wants
to do something, anything, that is different, but doesn't exactly know what
that
is. My advice is designed to shake up his life in ways no one, not even
he, can predict... that's what's part of the fun. Consider:

1) A liberal arts college program is the very best way to begin gaining the
perspective needed to decide one's life's ambition. I emphasize some
courses
for the sake of later survival, but these should not dominate the real work
of the
curriculum, which is to develop an understanding of the greater reality of
the
world beyond work.

2) Even dead end jobs can be compensated for through the development of the
pleasures involved in living the life of the mind. These jobs can even be
a good
break from studying and pondering and questioning.

The orignal poster may or may not be able to find a better job after
finishing
a completely technical program of study, but if the technical market is dry
or
his chances of psychological survival are not significantly increased.
However,
a liberal education mixed with a sprinkling of additional survival skills
will make
him far more adaptable to stagnation or even outright adversity.

3) I forgot to mention the other side of finding one or more arts or
activities
which are generally easy to learn... these things are also generally easy
to teach!

Being able to teach a few skills which are easy to master tends to open more
doors
than you might think: it endears one to the vulnerable and gains respect
from
those who care for them.

4) I'm not being cynical regarding teaching English in the Peoples'
Republic. I have
been given the same advice from a dear friend of mine, long since passed
away, who
did this and wound up teaching far more than just English in a classroom.

You're teaching not just about what you speak, but also about your entire
life.
This is an experience which forces one to re-examine one's entire life from
every
angle, while at the same time developing confidence in all the smaller
things about
life by sharing them with other people who consider them exotic and
entertaining.




To the original poster of this thread, I'd say, examine your reasons
for pursuing electronics. If it's because you think you'll enjoy it
and really dig in, then do that. If it's just because you heard
that's where the money is these days, take a lesson from my old
girlfriend (and me, and Rush Limbaugh) and do something you're
passionate about.

David

Our friend, however, has nothing to lose by doing the completely unexpected.
My presciption for him is that he undertake a genuine adventure, with
adequate
preparation up front for all the surprises he will certainly encounter along
the way.

I was on the verge of doing this myself until I took the coward's way out
and gave
engineering one last chance. But I'm happy and reconciled with who I am, I
have
love and family, and in general I am more content even thought I did not
dare take
the road less traveled.


The Eternal Squire