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Receiving WWVB
I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and
wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad |
Joel Kolstad wrote:
I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I think you will need a receiver with a narrow band pass. The phase locked scheme can help you get a very narrow band pass. Another arrangement is use the 1 Khz as you planned and use a FFT program to get the signal out of the noise.. And maybe, at your location, the signal is strong enough that my concerns do not apply. Bill K7NOM |
Joel Kolstad wrote:
I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I think you will need a receiver with a narrow band pass. The phase locked scheme can help you get a very narrow band pass. Another arrangement is use the 1 Khz as you planned and use a FFT program to get the signal out of the noise.. And maybe, at your location, the signal is strong enough that my concerns do not apply. Bill K7NOM |
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise --
QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad |
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise --
QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad |
Roy Lewallen wrote:
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise -- QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I get a good signal into central Florida these days. I could barely pick them up before they replaced their antennas and upgraded the transmitters. I could pick up the harmonics of the horizontal sweep of a TV set over a half mile away, but WWVB was so weak it was wiped out by power line noise and other VLF noise. Temic makes a single chip reciever/decoder, but I don't know if it is available in small quantities. I have the data sheets, but I have to look for them. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Roy Lewallen wrote:
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise -- QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I get a good signal into central Florida these days. I could barely pick them up before they replaced their antennas and upgraded the transmitters. I could pick up the harmonics of the horizontal sweep of a TV set over a half mile away, but WWVB was so weak it was wiped out by power line noise and other VLF noise. Temic makes a single chip reciever/decoder, but I don't know if it is available in small quantities. I have the data sheets, but I have to look for them. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 "Roy" =3D=3D Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. =2D --=20 Jack Twilley jmt at twilley dot org http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/fwD0GPFSfAB/ezgRAs6KAKDl0S2jpSp3c2dj3t3oTrBWE0Cu1ACfdAdd +727zTdcOuw33tvjSsP/6rE=3D =3DLHM4 =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 "Roy" =3D=3D Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. =2D --=20 Jack Twilley jmt at twilley dot org http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/fwD0GPFSfAB/ezgRAs6KAKDl0S2jpSp3c2dj3t3oTrBWE0Cu1ACfdAdd +727zTdcOuw33tvjSsP/6rE=3D =3DLHM4 =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Roy Lewallen wrote:
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise -- QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I would suggest using a shielded loop antenna to help with the local noise problem. The loop is directional so it could be oriented to reduce at least one source of noise. Bill K7NOM |
Roy Lewallen wrote:
I played with that many, many moons ago. The bugaboo is local noise -- QRM from all kinds of devices running from mains power, switching, arcing, and sparking. The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. So I suggest looking at each architechture for its noise immunity and how it responds when it does get a burst of noise. Absolute minimum bandwidth is an advantage from a noise standpoint, as long as it's not so narrow that it rings for too long when hit with an impulse. A PLL with long loop time constant might be a good idea, since it should maintain synchronization through a noise burst. Other than those generalities, I don't have much to offer. I built up a simple receiver long ago that allowed me to see the binary code on a scope, but only late at night. I never pursued perfecting it to the point where it would be reliable. WWVB increased its power between then and now, but it's probably still not a piece of cake. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Joel Kolstad wrote: I've been thinking about building a WWVB (time code on 60kHz) receiver, and wanted to get some suggestions for the architecture. Poking around the web some, I did find one receiver where the guy built a synchronous detector using a PLL and VCXO to phase-lock to the 60kHz carrier. Nice idea -- especially since he wanted the 60kHz carrier as a synchronization signal. However, I just want the time data... so... wouldn't it be easier to build a mixer at, e.g., 59kHz and then use an envelope detector to get a loud/quiet audible (1kHz) tone (WWVB reduces power by 10dB to signify 0 bits in its time code)? It seems to me that this approach avoids the need for the PLL and VCXO, which is a nice 'reduction' in complexity. Also, since I'll have a microcontroller around to decode the time code anyway, it can easily generate the 59kHz signal. Thanks, ---Joel Kolstad I would suggest using a shielded loop antenna to help with the local noise problem. The loop is directional so it could be oriented to reduce at least one source of noise. Bill K7NOM |
Jack Twilley ) writes:
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "Roy" =3D=3D Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. I thought the reason WWVB was so low down in the spectrum was so propagation was fairly constant. Michael VE2BVW |
Jack Twilley ) writes:
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "Roy" =3D=3D Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. I thought the reason WWVB was so low down in the spectrum was so propagation was fairly constant. Michael VE2BVW |
At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and
nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Jack Twilley wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "Roy" == Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. |
At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and
nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Jack Twilley wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "Roy" == Roy Lewallen writes: Roy The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off, Roy which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do Roy their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. Interesting. Jack. |
The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off,
which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. I've occasionally "played" with an "atomic clock" by setting it INcorrectly, and each has always sync'ed within 10 minutes at ANY time of the day, except for one which was inside a metal building; it finally sync'ed about noon. I'm near Topeka, KS, some 400+ miles east and a little south of Boulder, CO. --Myron, W0PBV. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
The noise was lower late at night when more gadgets were off,
which I'm sure is why the automatic clocks you can get now do their synchronizing late at night. I thought the reason they sync'ed at night was because of propagation. I've occasionally "played" with an "atomic clock" by setting it INcorrectly, and each has always sync'ed within 10 minutes at ANY time of the day, except for one which was inside a metal building; it finally sync'ed about noon. I'm near Topeka, KS, some 400+ miles east and a little south of Boulder, CO. --Myron, W0PBV. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:06:23 -0700, Roy Lewallen
wrote: At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Don't forget the daytime LF/MF attenuation in the D-layer, by preventing it from reaching the E-layer, which sets the LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). At night, the D-layer disappears, thus, the signal can reflect from the E or F layer. At least the 77,5 kHz Maiflingen standard time transmitter in Germany is usable to about 2000 .. 2500 km from the transmitter during the night at least in the winter. However, during the summer nights, the D layer is in constant sunlight all night nearly 1000 km south of the arctic circle, which may explain the worse conditions during summer night, but of course the number of lightnings is also higher during the summer, increasing the band noise. Paul OH3LWR |
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:06:23 -0700, Roy Lewallen
wrote: At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Don't forget the daytime LF/MF attenuation in the D-layer, by preventing it from reaching the E-layer, which sets the LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). At night, the D-layer disappears, thus, the signal can reflect from the E or F layer. At least the 77,5 kHz Maiflingen standard time transmitter in Germany is usable to about 2000 .. 2500 km from the transmitter during the night at least in the winter. However, during the summer nights, the D layer is in constant sunlight all night nearly 1000 km south of the arctic circle, which may explain the worse conditions during summer night, but of course the number of lightnings is also higher during the summer, increasing the band noise. Paul OH3LWR |
I'm not at all an expert on propagation. So are you saying that
propagation of 60 kHz signals is via ionospheric skip? E or F layer? I didn't think the LUF ever got anywhere near 60 kHz at any time. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Paul Keinanen wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:06:23 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Don't forget the daytime LF/MF attenuation in the D-layer, by preventing it from reaching the E-layer, which sets the LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). At night, the D-layer disappears, thus, the signal can reflect from the E or F layer. At least the 77,5 kHz Maiflingen standard time transmitter in Germany is usable to about 2000 .. 2500 km from the transmitter during the night at least in the winter. However, during the summer nights, the D layer is in constant sunlight all night nearly 1000 km south of the arctic circle, which may explain the worse conditions during summer night, but of course the number of lightnings is also higher during the summer, increasing the band noise. Paul OH3LWR |
I'm not at all an expert on propagation. So are you saying that
propagation of 60 kHz signals is via ionospheric skip? E or F layer? I didn't think the LUF ever got anywhere near 60 kHz at any time. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Paul Keinanen wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:06:23 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Don't forget the daytime LF/MF attenuation in the D-layer, by preventing it from reaching the E-layer, which sets the LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). At night, the D-layer disappears, thus, the signal can reflect from the E or F layer. At least the 77,5 kHz Maiflingen standard time transmitter in Germany is usable to about 2000 .. 2500 km from the transmitter during the night at least in the winter. However, during the summer nights, the D layer is in constant sunlight all night nearly 1000 km south of the arctic circle, which may explain the worse conditions during summer night, but of course the number of lightnings is also higher during the summer, increasing the band noise. Paul OH3LWR |
Roy Lewallen ) writes:
At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Roy, I believe that even at 60 kHz, propagation is within an earth-ionosphere waveguide, the height of which is controlled by the sun (60 km during daylight and 90 km during night). Precise RF phase comparison is easy at these freqs because the phase stability of the path is excellent during all daylight conditions, but there is some random variation at night. It is best to avoid making measurements (of phase) while the path is only partly in daylight because of the diurnal shifts in phase as the sunrise-sunset terminator passes over the radio path (due to the changing height of the waveguide). The U.S. VLF OMEGA navigation system, the old WWVL (now SK) on 20 kHz, MSF on 60 kHz, and WWVB on 60 kHz all suffer from these effects. 73, .... Martin VE3OAT |
Roy Lewallen ) writes:
At 60 kHz, there shouldn't be any difference between daytime and nighttime propagation. Certainly the ionosphere isn't involved. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Roy, I believe that even at 60 kHz, propagation is within an earth-ionosphere waveguide, the height of which is controlled by the sun (60 km during daylight and 90 km during night). Precise RF phase comparison is easy at these freqs because the phase stability of the path is excellent during all daylight conditions, but there is some random variation at night. It is best to avoid making measurements (of phase) while the path is only partly in daylight because of the diurnal shifts in phase as the sunrise-sunset terminator passes over the radio path (due to the changing height of the waveguide). The U.S. VLF OMEGA navigation system, the old WWVL (now SK) on 20 kHz, MSF on 60 kHz, and WWVB on 60 kHz all suffer from these effects. 73, .... Martin VE3OAT |
For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to:
http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm That is the home page for the NIST radio stations and there is a link to NIST's radio coverage every two hours or so during a 24 hour period using small hemispere map projections of North and South America. --- What I am personally interested in is a source for the direct conversion of WWVB field strength from or to Volts per Meter to confirm the 60 KHz loop antenna constructed a year ago here. I have a particular reason since there is some shading effects of nearby-to-residence San Gabriel Mountain range. Reception is fine, I'm just trying to tie others' numbers of field strength into the equations for a magnetic loop. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to:
http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm That is the home page for the NIST radio stations and there is a link to NIST's radio coverage every two hours or so during a 24 hour period using small hemispere map projections of North and South America. --- What I am personally interested in is a source for the direct conversion of WWVB field strength from or to Volts per Meter to confirm the 60 KHz loop antenna constructed a year ago here. I have a particular reason since there is some shading effects of nearby-to-residence San Gabriel Mountain range. Reception is fine, I'm just trying to tie others' numbers of field strength into the equations for a magnetic loop. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
Bill Janssen wrote:
I would suggest using a shielded loop antenna to help with the local noise problem. The loop is directional so it could be oriented to reduce at least one source of noise. I was planning to use a coil wound on a ferrite bar core to reduce the overall size of the antenna, but the web does show people successfully using large 'air core' loops, as you've suggested. I was thinking of shielding the ferrite bar antenna by placing it in something along the lines of a copper pipe with the edge slitted, but apparently it might be bet to enclose the antenna in a U-shaped piece of metal, such that, oh, say, 1/4 of the broadside of the antenna is still exposed? I'm not sure why this should matter, though? ---Joel |
Bill Janssen wrote:
I would suggest using a shielded loop antenna to help with the local noise problem. The loop is directional so it could be oriented to reduce at least one source of noise. I was planning to use a coil wound on a ferrite bar core to reduce the overall size of the antenna, but the web does show people successfully using large 'air core' loops, as you've suggested. I was thinking of shielding the ferrite bar antenna by placing it in something along the lines of a copper pipe with the edge slitted, but apparently it might be bet to enclose the antenna in a U-shaped piece of metal, such that, oh, say, 1/4 of the broadside of the antenna is still exposed? I'm not sure why this should matter, though? ---Joel |
Thanks for the link. That picture brought back vivid memories of times
outdoors in the Rockies in some really attention-getting weather. Whoa, mama, time to be lookin' for some cover! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Avery Fineman wrote: For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm That is the home page for the NIST radio stations and there is a link to NIST's radio coverage every two hours or so during a 24 hour period using small hemispere map projections of North and South America. . . . |
Thanks for the link. That picture brought back vivid memories of times
outdoors in the Rockies in some really attention-getting weather. Whoa, mama, time to be lookin' for some cover! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Avery Fineman wrote: For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm That is the home page for the NIST radio stations and there is a link to NIST's radio coverage every two hours or so during a 24 hour period using small hemispere map projections of North and South America. . . . |
In article , Roy Lewallen
writes: Thanks for the link. That picture brought back vivid memories of times outdoors in the Rockies in some really attention-getting weather. Whoa, mama, time to be lookin' for some cover! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Avery Fineman wrote: For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm I'm sure the photographer for NIST was counting on that attention-getting weather for the WWVB page's photogenic qualities. :-) A link on the WWVB page has some typical field strengths given for various locations in the USA along with a tabulation of daily changes in that field strength level. There's also a log of outages of WWVB for those who want to check if they are on when you want them to be. Almost any Internet search engine will turn up a surprising number of links to 60 KHz loop antennas built by all sorts of electronic hobbyists. I did that search a year ago when preparing to build my WWVB loop receiver and phase-locker for the frequency counter timebase standard. One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). A couple of cuts of a hacksaw put the gap in the wheel rim to prevent the "shorted turn effect" from happening. The wheel rim should be a very sturdy former for winding heavy coil wire around it. A strip of plastic provided mechanical support for the gap in the wheel. If memory serves, it was done in San Diego, CA, area and mounted outside under a patio cover. My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. With 58 1/2 turns, inductance is 5.6 to 5.7 milliHenry. Distributed capacity is about 390 pFd, not too bad considering that winding took all but 9 feet of a 500 foot spool (purchased at Home Depot for $14). The loop is mounted in the attic space above the center room of the house with half of that room as the workshop. That attic space is closed off from the rest of the attic by recent roof remodeling so it has become essentially waterproof now...construction was originally done to work in direct rain, tested only with liberal garden hose sprinkling and measuring of characteristics. The loop connections are balanced above ground with the electrostatic shield at ground potential and two 12 foot RG-59 TV cables are used something like Twinax to a balanced input FET differential amplifier stage below in the workshop. Resonating at 60 KHz is done with a sacrificed dual variable capacitor in the differential FET amplifier. Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. There are two Oregon Scientific radio clocks in the house, a small one about 4 years old that indicates it has solid automatic updating. Has a small "loopstick" like gizmo inside as the antenna. A large one in the office room, very visible from 12 feet, 1 year old, misses a midnight update about once every two weeks. The small one is "solid copy" all the time. Don't know what the large one uses for a loopstick antenna...wife won't let me open it up to look. :-) Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. Neither is very directional. The little radio clock was $20 retail and the big one about $25. Battery life is over a year, closer to two years. Both have built- in calendars (leap year is probably derived directly from WWVB data coding). Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , Roy Lewallen
writes: Thanks for the link. That picture brought back vivid memories of times outdoors in the Rockies in some really attention-getting weather. Whoa, mama, time to be lookin' for some cover! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Avery Fineman wrote: For those interested in getting full and complete details of WWVB, go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm I'm sure the photographer for NIST was counting on that attention-getting weather for the WWVB page's photogenic qualities. :-) A link on the WWVB page has some typical field strengths given for various locations in the USA along with a tabulation of daily changes in that field strength level. There's also a log of outages of WWVB for those who want to check if they are on when you want them to be. Almost any Internet search engine will turn up a surprising number of links to 60 KHz loop antennas built by all sorts of electronic hobbyists. I did that search a year ago when preparing to build my WWVB loop receiver and phase-locker for the frequency counter timebase standard. One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). A couple of cuts of a hacksaw put the gap in the wheel rim to prevent the "shorted turn effect" from happening. The wheel rim should be a very sturdy former for winding heavy coil wire around it. A strip of plastic provided mechanical support for the gap in the wheel. If memory serves, it was done in San Diego, CA, area and mounted outside under a patio cover. My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. With 58 1/2 turns, inductance is 5.6 to 5.7 milliHenry. Distributed capacity is about 390 pFd, not too bad considering that winding took all but 9 feet of a 500 foot spool (purchased at Home Depot for $14). The loop is mounted in the attic space above the center room of the house with half of that room as the workshop. That attic space is closed off from the rest of the attic by recent roof remodeling so it has become essentially waterproof now...construction was originally done to work in direct rain, tested only with liberal garden hose sprinkling and measuring of characteristics. The loop connections are balanced above ground with the electrostatic shield at ground potential and two 12 foot RG-59 TV cables are used something like Twinax to a balanced input FET differential amplifier stage below in the workshop. Resonating at 60 KHz is done with a sacrificed dual variable capacitor in the differential FET amplifier. Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. There are two Oregon Scientific radio clocks in the house, a small one about 4 years old that indicates it has solid automatic updating. Has a small "loopstick" like gizmo inside as the antenna. A large one in the office room, very visible from 12 feet, 1 year old, misses a midnight update about once every two weeks. The small one is "solid copy" all the time. Don't know what the large one uses for a loopstick antenna...wife won't let me open it up to look. :-) Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. Neither is very directional. The little radio clock was $20 retail and the big one about $25. Battery life is over a year, closer to two years. Both have built- in calendars (leap year is probably derived directly from WWVB data coding). Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
Hi Avery,
Avery Fineman wrote: One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). Indeed. I saw one of those he http://lakeweb.com/rf/wwvb/ (may or may not be the same one you found), and it is a clever idea. I'm thinking now I might build one like that as well as a ferrite rod version to compare with; since the ferrite will increase the effective area of the antenna by the square of its effective relative permeability, I want to believe that a 1/2" ferrite rod can compete with... well... at least an air core loop, uh... the size of your hand? (I don't have various references here with me to start looking up the effective relative permeability of a ferrite rod of a given l/d ratio... hopefully in the ballpark of 20-50...) I also found that people did occasionally ask about really large diameter (1") ferrite cores, and while the usual response was that you could, of course, pack a bunch of smaller rods together to make a big one, apparently no one has the considerable $$$ around to build, say, a coffee can sized ferrite core antenna. Would be something to see though! Anyone want to donate some fat ferrite rods to me? :-) My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. Not bad at all! Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. That's good to hear; noise seems to be a common concern. I believe you said your receiver was a synchronous design, correct? I'm still liking the envelope detector approach, but I've yet to hear about anyone successfully employing this (simpler) method. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. I don't suppose you have an estimate of your signal to noise ratio? Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. I'm in Corvallis, Oregon, which -- eyeballing it on a map -- is perhaps half again as far from Boulder. I have one of the inexpensive self-setting clocks that does work pretty reliably _if keep in certain positions within my house_. I've read that these also set themselves at night when the SNR is significantly higher too. Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. I was going to get some of the 1/2"x4" or 7" rods from Ocean State Electronics he http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p88.htm ... they also have some inexpensive pre-wound rods meant for AM radios (http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p91.htm), but they're apparently tuned for the AM broadcast band and therefore I'd have to re-wind the things anyway. This is hopefully going to end up as a class project and therefore the goal of learning how to build your own antenna and receiver is the reason I'm not intending to just go and use someone's "all in one" WWVB receiver IC (even though colleges seem to push that approach these days... but then _someone_ had to design that IC, right!?). ---Joel Kolstad |
Hi Avery,
Avery Fineman wrote: One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). Indeed. I saw one of those he http://lakeweb.com/rf/wwvb/ (may or may not be the same one you found), and it is a clever idea. I'm thinking now I might build one like that as well as a ferrite rod version to compare with; since the ferrite will increase the effective area of the antenna by the square of its effective relative permeability, I want to believe that a 1/2" ferrite rod can compete with... well... at least an air core loop, uh... the size of your hand? (I don't have various references here with me to start looking up the effective relative permeability of a ferrite rod of a given l/d ratio... hopefully in the ballpark of 20-50...) I also found that people did occasionally ask about really large diameter (1") ferrite cores, and while the usual response was that you could, of course, pack a bunch of smaller rods together to make a big one, apparently no one has the considerable $$$ around to build, say, a coffee can sized ferrite core antenna. Would be something to see though! Anyone want to donate some fat ferrite rods to me? :-) My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. Not bad at all! Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. That's good to hear; noise seems to be a common concern. I believe you said your receiver was a synchronous design, correct? I'm still liking the envelope detector approach, but I've yet to hear about anyone successfully employing this (simpler) method. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. I don't suppose you have an estimate of your signal to noise ratio? Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. I'm in Corvallis, Oregon, which -- eyeballing it on a map -- is perhaps half again as far from Boulder. I have one of the inexpensive self-setting clocks that does work pretty reliably _if keep in certain positions within my house_. I've read that these also set themselves at night when the SNR is significantly higher too. Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. I was going to get some of the 1/2"x4" or 7" rods from Ocean State Electronics he http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p88.htm ... they also have some inexpensive pre-wound rods meant for AM radios (http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p91.htm), but they're apparently tuned for the AM broadcast band and therefore I'd have to re-wind the things anyway. This is hopefully going to end up as a class project and therefore the goal of learning how to build your own antenna and receiver is the reason I'm not intending to just go and use someone's "all in one" WWVB receiver IC (even though colleges seem to push that approach these days... but then _someone_ had to design that IC, right!?). ---Joel Kolstad |
In article , "Joel Kolstad"
writes: Avery Fineman wrote: One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). Indeed. I saw one of those he http://lakeweb.com/rf/wwvb/ (may or may not be the same one you found), and it is a clever idea. I'm thinking now I might build one like that as well as a ferrite rod version to compare with; since the ferrite will increase the effective area of the antenna by the square of its effective relative permeability, I want to believe that a 1/2" ferrite rod can compete with... well... at least an air core loop, uh... the size of your hand? (I don't have various references here with me to start looking up the effective relative permeability of a ferrite rod of a given l/d ratio... hopefully in the ballpark of 20-50...) Sounds good. I've not experimented with ferrite or powdered-iron core antennas for my project. My loop was based more on the fact that there was attic space above the interior workshop and the trap door diagonal dimension set the maximum loop diameter to 2' 10". #14 electrical wire was actually cheaper than purchaseable coil wire for 500 feet and was a relatively calculable-before-build thing. I could have put in a 5 foot diameter loop but would have to dismantle a few things to get it there or spend time bent over while constructing it. :-) [winding and wrapping took a LOT longer than expected!] I also found that people did occasionally ask about really large diameter (1") ferrite cores, and while the usual response was that you could, of course, pack a bunch of smaller rods together to make a big one, apparently no one has the considerable $$$ around to build, say, a coffee can sized ferrite core antenna. Would be something to see though! Anyone want to donate some fat ferrite rods to me? :-) My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. Not bad at all! Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. That's good to hear; noise seems to be a common concern. I believe you said your receiver was a synchronous design, correct? I'm still liking the envelope detector approach, but I've yet to hear about anyone successfully employing this (simpler) method. My project is specifically for deriving the 60 KHz carrier, as clean as possible prior to mixing-dividing etc. to compare the frequency counter timebase frequency of 10 MHz. With two commercial radio clocks on hand, WWV over the Icom R-70 for time hacks, wasn't any desire to decode the time signal. To get a narrow receiving bandwidth "raw," the tuned loop handles the initial selectivity. A differential FET with tuned transformer output both gets rid of some common-mode RF pickup and the transformer Q of just about 30 drops the far-frequency attenuation more (bandwidth of the transformer is roughly 2 KHz, wider than loop alone). From there on things are quite different. The amplified, "wide" bandwidth WWVB signal is fed to an old MC1350P video-RF differential amplifier with a local oscillator at about 246 KHz into the AGC voltage pin. That makes it an active balanced mixer. The output of that goes to a single quartz crystal filter at 186 KHz...an old surplus xtal acquired decades ago, presumably from a timebase or marker crystal for a military radar set of ancient vintage. A second MC1350P mixerf, fed with the same 246 KHz LO but the output tuned to 60 KHz downconverts to the original frequency. The two mixers need to have the LO injection with at least 30 db of isolation between the two...takes some playing around and I got about 40 db. The up-conversion and down-conversion was to use a crystal filter at a frequency different than 60 KHz (avoids re-radiation pickup in the loop for one thing or other stuff in the breadboard stage). The crystal filter is still being played with but the basic circuit is just series- resonance at a single frequency, looking for the narrowest bandwidth possible. Getting about 5 Hz of -3 db bandwidth right now and am having to fuss with temperature stability of the L-C tuned LO. Gets a bit fussy to test out that narrow a bandwidth...:-) Note: The heterodyning (mixing) process doesn't change the relative phase of a frequency-changed signal. A second heterodyne back to the original frequency retains the original relative phase. The trick there is to get isolation from one LO injection port to the other. That avoids any feed-through which can spoil the crystal filtering action. I use a couple more MC1350s to split out from the L-C transistor oscillator with supply pins separately decoupled and gains set low by using very low collector load resistors. I might be satisfied with a 10 Hz bandwidth overall if the fussing-around period eats up too much time. Right now it looks like a very clean RF carrier waveform with annoying 1 second bounce up and down when viewed on a scope. I'm planning on adding a limiter stage or two following which will remove the modulation almost fully (!). The MC1350P (an old Motorola part based on their metal can MC1590) makes an excellent limiter when over-driven. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. I don't suppose you have an estimate of your signal to noise ratio? No. I'm looking for the carrier as clean as I can get it. There's zilch front-end noise. There are some occaisional "bumps" from impulse stuff from somewhere but nothing from horizontal TV sweep 4th harmonic at ~63 KHz. Closest TV set is about 15 feet away diagonal. Offhand, I'd say the S:N ratio is consistent with a 10 Hz bandwidth at -3 db points. That would be fine if I were demodulating the WWVB time code changing at a 1 Hz rate. Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. I'm in Corvallis, Oregon, which -- eyeballing it on a map -- is perhaps half again as far from Boulder. I have one of the inexpensive self-setting clocks that does work pretty reliably _if keep in certain positions within my house_. I've read that these also set themselves at night when the SNR is significantly higher too. Their automatic sensing varies with the manufacturer. NIST has some info (in a FAQ page?) on their site. The little Oregon Scientific unit here (older one) checks itself every 8 hours, the larger new one (by same company) checks itself in the hour after midnight. Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. I was going to get some of the 1/2"x4" or 7" rods from Ocean State Electronics he http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p88.htm ... they also have some inexpensive pre-wound rods meant for AM radios (http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p91.htm), but they're apparently tuned for the AM broadcast band and therefore I'd have to re-wind the things anyway. Couple of things there. Core permeability may be different at 60 KHz versus the 550 KHz low frequency of AM BC band. If it is okay then you can get away without rewinding the coil on it, just retune it with more capacitance if your input circuit can stand the lower impedance. At 60 KHz you can use a wide-range audio test oscillator for checking resonance Q, measuring inductance, etc. I was using an ancient Heathkit audio oscillator (Wien bridge type) with the 5-digit frequency counter built into a French-made DVM newly purchased from Mouser. This is hopefully going to end up as a class project and therefore the goal of learning how to build your own antenna and receiver is the reason I'm not intending to just go and use someone's "all in one" WWVB receiver IC (even though colleges seem to push that approach these days... but then _someone_ had to design that IC, right!?). Hans Summers has a nice section on his website in the UK that has full particulars of his 1991 first-year university project of a 60 KHz receiver-decoder for the Rugby station there. He used discrete TTL packages for the entire decoder! [Rugby modulation code a bit different compared to WWVB] http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...o/radioclk.htm Hans (who appears in here from time to time) has _everything_ on that project available there. Interesting! If I type the link incorrect, just get www.hanssummers.com and navigate from there. Interesting website with lots of different projects well-described. If I were going for a radio clock project, I'd get a reasonably-clean signal at 60 KHz by analog means with a bandwidth of 10 to 50 Hz on the output then use one of the many PIC microcontrollers to do the decoding...and also readout control. Microcircuits has free development software for download that works in any PC. Decoding algorithms will be roughly the same whether done in software or hardware and (in my estimation) your own software development can be as much fun as handling lots of hardware. Your mileage may vary. Have fun. Things are a bit different working with a very fixed frequency station at LF with very slow modulation rates! :-) Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , "Joel Kolstad"
writes: Avery Fineman wrote: One of the most innovative in my estimation was the loop built on an unused bicycle wheel rim (spokes removed). Indeed. I saw one of those he http://lakeweb.com/rf/wwvb/ (may or may not be the same one you found), and it is a clever idea. I'm thinking now I might build one like that as well as a ferrite rod version to compare with; since the ferrite will increase the effective area of the antenna by the square of its effective relative permeability, I want to believe that a 1/2" ferrite rod can compete with... well... at least an air core loop, uh... the size of your hand? (I don't have various references here with me to start looking up the effective relative permeability of a ferrite rod of a given l/d ratio... hopefully in the ballpark of 20-50...) Sounds good. I've not experimented with ferrite or powdered-iron core antennas for my project. My loop was based more on the fact that there was attic space above the interior workshop and the trap door diagonal dimension set the maximum loop diameter to 2' 10". #14 electrical wire was actually cheaper than purchaseable coil wire for 500 feet and was a relatively calculable-before-build thing. I could have put in a 5 foot diameter loop but would have to dismantle a few things to get it there or spend time bent over while constructing it. :-) [winding and wrapping took a LOT longer than expected!] I also found that people did occasionally ask about really large diameter (1") ferrite cores, and while the usual response was that you could, of course, pack a bunch of smaller rods together to make a big one, apparently no one has the considerable $$$ around to build, say, a coffee can sized ferrite core antenna. Would be something to see though! Anyone want to donate some fat ferrite rods to me? :-) My own loop is 58 1/2 turns of #14 AWG THHN electrical wire self- supporting with a mean diameter of 2 feet, 8 inches, then bound with cheap twine that was well varnished with McCloskey's "Gym-Seal" floor varnish. The electrostatic shielding was provided by heavy-grade kitchen aluminum foil (with a gap, of course) that was bound with a second application of twine, then varnished. Q at resonance is about 44, good enough for about 1.4 KHz BW by itself. Not bad at all! Worked out well and I can't observe any funny spikes from appliances or other non-WWVB signal things after the FET stage. That's good to hear; noise seems to be a common concern. I believe you said your receiver was a synchronous design, correct? I'm still liking the envelope detector approach, but I've yet to hear about anyone successfully employing this (simpler) method. My project is specifically for deriving the 60 KHz carrier, as clean as possible prior to mixing-dividing etc. to compare the frequency counter timebase frequency of 10 MHz. With two commercial radio clocks on hand, WWV over the Icom R-70 for time hacks, wasn't any desire to decode the time signal. To get a narrow receiving bandwidth "raw," the tuned loop handles the initial selectivity. A differential FET with tuned transformer output both gets rid of some common-mode RF pickup and the transformer Q of just about 30 drops the far-frequency attenuation more (bandwidth of the transformer is roughly 2 KHz, wider than loop alone). From there on things are quite different. The amplified, "wide" bandwidth WWVB signal is fed to an old MC1350P video-RF differential amplifier with a local oscillator at about 246 KHz into the AGC voltage pin. That makes it an active balanced mixer. The output of that goes to a single quartz crystal filter at 186 KHz...an old surplus xtal acquired decades ago, presumably from a timebase or marker crystal for a military radar set of ancient vintage. A second MC1350P mixerf, fed with the same 246 KHz LO but the output tuned to 60 KHz downconverts to the original frequency. The two mixers need to have the LO injection with at least 30 db of isolation between the two...takes some playing around and I got about 40 db. The up-conversion and down-conversion was to use a crystal filter at a frequency different than 60 KHz (avoids re-radiation pickup in the loop for one thing or other stuff in the breadboard stage). The crystal filter is still being played with but the basic circuit is just series- resonance at a single frequency, looking for the narrowest bandwidth possible. Getting about 5 Hz of -3 db bandwidth right now and am having to fuss with temperature stability of the L-C tuned LO. Gets a bit fussy to test out that narrow a bandwidth...:-) Note: The heterodyning (mixing) process doesn't change the relative phase of a frequency-changed signal. A second heterodyne back to the original frequency retains the original relative phase. The trick there is to get isolation from one LO injection port to the other. That avoids any feed-through which can spoil the crystal filtering action. I use a couple more MC1350s to split out from the L-C transistor oscillator with supply pins separately decoupled and gains set low by using very low collector load resistors. I might be satisfied with a 10 Hz bandwidth overall if the fussing-around period eats up too much time. Right now it looks like a very clean RF carrier waveform with annoying 1 second bounce up and down when viewed on a scope. I'm planning on adding a limiter stage or two following which will remove the modulation almost fully (!). The MC1350P (an old Motorola part based on their metal can MC1590) makes an excellent limiter when over-driven. 60 KHz signal voltage across the loop at resonance is estimated at about 90 to 120 microVolts. I don't suppose you have an estimate of your signal to noise ratio? No. I'm looking for the carrier as clean as I can get it. There's zilch front-end noise. There are some occaisional "bumps" from impulse stuff from somewhere but nothing from horizontal TV sweep 4th harmonic at ~63 KHz. Closest TV set is about 15 feet away diagonal. Offhand, I'd say the S:N ratio is consistent with a 10 Hz bandwidth at -3 db points. That would be fine if I were demodulating the WWVB time code changing at a 1 Hz rate. Location here is northern Los Angeles in the Verdugo Hills (a mile of hills between here and Boulder, CO).. I'm in Corvallis, Oregon, which -- eyeballing it on a map -- is perhaps half again as far from Boulder. I have one of the inexpensive self-setting clocks that does work pretty reliably _if keep in certain positions within my house_. I've read that these also set themselves at night when the SNR is significantly higher too. Their automatic sensing varies with the manufacturer. NIST has some info (in a FAQ page?) on their site. The little Oregon Scientific unit here (older one) checks itself every 8 hours, the larger new one (by same company) checks itself in the hour after midnight. Ferrite/powdered-iron core "antennas" used in consumer market radio clocks seem to work very well. I was going to get some of the 1/2"x4" or 7" rods from Ocean State Electronics he http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p88.htm ... they also have some inexpensive pre-wound rods meant for AM radios (http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p91.htm), but they're apparently tuned for the AM broadcast band and therefore I'd have to re-wind the things anyway. Couple of things there. Core permeability may be different at 60 KHz versus the 550 KHz low frequency of AM BC band. If it is okay then you can get away without rewinding the coil on it, just retune it with more capacitance if your input circuit can stand the lower impedance. At 60 KHz you can use a wide-range audio test oscillator for checking resonance Q, measuring inductance, etc. I was using an ancient Heathkit audio oscillator (Wien bridge type) with the 5-digit frequency counter built into a French-made DVM newly purchased from Mouser. This is hopefully going to end up as a class project and therefore the goal of learning how to build your own antenna and receiver is the reason I'm not intending to just go and use someone's "all in one" WWVB receiver IC (even though colleges seem to push that approach these days... but then _someone_ had to design that IC, right!?). Hans Summers has a nice section on his website in the UK that has full particulars of his 1991 first-year university project of a 60 KHz receiver-decoder for the Rugby station there. He used discrete TTL packages for the entire decoder! [Rugby modulation code a bit different compared to WWVB] http://www.hanssummers.com/electroni...o/radioclk.htm Hans (who appears in here from time to time) has _everything_ on that project available there. Interesting! If I type the link incorrect, just get www.hanssummers.com and navigate from there. Interesting website with lots of different projects well-described. If I were going for a radio clock project, I'd get a reasonably-clean signal at 60 KHz by analog means with a bandwidth of 10 to 50 Hz on the output then use one of the many PIC microcontrollers to do the decoding...and also readout control. Microcircuits has free development software for download that works in any PC. Decoding algorithms will be roughly the same whether done in software or hardware and (in my estimation) your own software development can be as much fun as handling lots of hardware. Your mileage may vary. Have fun. Things are a bit different working with a very fixed frequency station at LF with very slow modulation rates! :-) Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
I read an article about WWVB reception for a frequency standard that made
use of a zero crossing detector to detect the 60 KHz signal. His point was that many detection schemes can get a false count now and then due to the 10 dB drop in signal strength that WWVB uses to encode the time information. Apparently, the zero crossings are quite stable regardless of the amplitude change. For a system to recover the time information, I'd be inclined to simply amplify the incoming and then use a diode detector of some sort. Well, that and a SLOW AGC system... I do not think it would need anything as complex as a synchronous detector since any changes in the propogation of 60 KHz is very slow. Admitted, the occasional noise burst may result in a false pulse now and then. Since you are likely to feed the signal into a computer of some sort to decode the pulses to a time signal, you can add some programming to handle the occasional false pulse. Jim Pennell N6BIU |
I read an article about WWVB reception for a frequency standard that made
use of a zero crossing detector to detect the 60 KHz signal. His point was that many detection schemes can get a false count now and then due to the 10 dB drop in signal strength that WWVB uses to encode the time information. Apparently, the zero crossings are quite stable regardless of the amplitude change. For a system to recover the time information, I'd be inclined to simply amplify the incoming and then use a diode detector of some sort. Well, that and a SLOW AGC system... I do not think it would need anything as complex as a synchronous detector since any changes in the propogation of 60 KHz is very slow. Admitted, the occasional noise burst may result in a false pulse now and then. Since you are likely to feed the signal into a computer of some sort to decode the pulses to a time signal, you can add some programming to handle the occasional false pulse. Jim Pennell N6BIU |
Thanks for that most informative response, Avery, and also the link to Hans'
project. Hopefully next week I'll get around to constructing my antenna (need to visit a bike store and ask for busted rims this weekend... :-) ). From the signal strengths you were quoting (100uV), it seems as though it's iffy whether or not you'd see anything at all taking the output of the antenna (with resonating capacitor) and feeding it directly to a spectrum analyzer (since we're looking at, oh, -70 to -80dBm into 50 ohms, which is starting to push the noise floor of at least one spectrum analyzer I have available to use). If there's nothing visible at that point, however, hopefully after a differential FET amplifier as you suggested the signal will be visible. (I find it very reassuring to be able to see you actually have some signal present at each point of a porject's development...) ---Joel |
Thanks for that most informative response, Avery, and also the link to Hans'
project. Hopefully next week I'll get around to constructing my antenna (need to visit a bike store and ask for busted rims this weekend... :-) ). From the signal strengths you were quoting (100uV), it seems as though it's iffy whether or not you'd see anything at all taking the output of the antenna (with resonating capacitor) and feeding it directly to a spectrum analyzer (since we're looking at, oh, -70 to -80dBm into 50 ohms, which is starting to push the noise floor of at least one spectrum analyzer I have available to use). If there's nothing visible at that point, however, hopefully after a differential FET amplifier as you suggested the signal will be visible. (I find it very reassuring to be able to see you actually have some signal present at each point of a porject's development...) ---Joel |
In article , "Joel Kolstad"
writes: Thanks for that most informative response, Avery, and also the link to Hans' project. Hopefully next week I'll get around to constructing my antenna (need to visit a bike store and ask for busted rims this weekend... :-) ). From the signal strengths you were quoting (100uV), it seems as though it's iffy whether or not you'd see anything at all taking the output of the antenna (with resonating capacitor) and feeding it directly to a spectrum analyzer (since we're looking at, oh, -70 to -80dBm into 50 ohms, which is starting to push the noise floor of at least one spectrum analyzer I have available to use). If there's nothing visible at that point, however, hopefully after a differential FET amplifier as you suggested the signal will be visible. (I find it very reassuring to be able to see you actually have some signal present at each point of a porject's development...) |
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