| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Car battery trickle charger?
This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer.
I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
You really don't want to trickle-charge the battery with high current..
that will cause the electrolyte to boil out and will kill the battery for good. You want to use one of your wall warts to power a voltage regulator such as a LM117 or LM217, so that you can adjust it to exactly the float level of a lead-acid battery, that is, 13.6 - 13.8 volts. Look up the data sheet for one of those regulators and build it to output the float voltage. The battery will only demand the current that it needs to stay fully charged. The LM117/217 can pass up to 1 amp, but more likely will be limited by the capability of your wall-wart. Again, this is OK, since the battery, once fully charged, will need only a few milliamps. I recommend the LM117 or LM217 because of the low temperature extremes that it may encounter in the midwest winter. The LM317 is rated for operation down to 0degC, or 32F. I'll bet your winter will get down significantly below that, so be safe and use a component that's rated to handle the temperature extreme. If you still need help after getting the data sheet for the regulator, come back here with your questions. Cheers!!!! -- Tweetldee Tweetldee at att dot net (Just subsitute the appropriate characters in the address) Never take a laxative and a sleeping pill at the same time!! "Bruce W...1" wrote in message ... This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
You really don't want to trickle-charge the battery with high current..
that will cause the electrolyte to boil out and will kill the battery for good. You want to use one of your wall warts to power a voltage regulator such as a LM117 or LM217, so that you can adjust it to exactly the float level of a lead-acid battery, that is, 13.6 - 13.8 volts. Look up the data sheet for one of those regulators and build it to output the float voltage. The battery will only demand the current that it needs to stay fully charged. The LM117/217 can pass up to 1 amp, but more likely will be limited by the capability of your wall-wart. Again, this is OK, since the battery, once fully charged, will need only a few milliamps. I recommend the LM117 or LM217 because of the low temperature extremes that it may encounter in the midwest winter. The LM317 is rated for operation down to 0degC, or 32F. I'll bet your winter will get down significantly below that, so be safe and use a component that's rated to handle the temperature extreme. If you still need help after getting the data sheet for the regulator, come back here with your questions. Cheers!!!! -- Tweetldee Tweetldee at att dot net (Just subsitute the appropriate characters in the address) Never take a laxative and a sleeping pill at the same time!! "Bruce W...1" wrote in message ... This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
In article ,
Bruce W...1 wrote: This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? I would guess that 100 milliamperes would be more than sufficient to overcome any self-discharge of the battery, as long as the vehicle doesn't have any electronics onboard which are drawing current. It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. You really don't want to do that. The reason is this: in order for a car battery to be drawing 1 amp of charge current on a continuous basis, you're going to have to boost the voltage up fairly high. You'd probably exceed the electrolysis voltage, and much of the current would end up breaking down the water in the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen. If your battery's design and chemistry don't allow the gasses to be recombined into water fast enough, you'd be at risk of "boiling" the battery dry. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Lead-acid batteries are happiest if you feed them a well-regulated charge/float voltage, with suitable current limiting. Using an unregulated or weakly-regulated 12-volt wall-wart is probably not a good idea - these wall warts tend to deliver a rather high voltage (often 16-18 volts) under conditions of little or no load. Depending on the specific wall-wart you choose, and the condition and type of your battery, you might end up electrolyzing away the water faster than the battery can recombine the hydrogen and oxygen. Losing a wall-wart would be annoying; losing the battery would be worse ;-) The best thing to do is get (or build) yourself some sort of well-regulated trickle charger. 100-200 mA is probably more than plenty for this application, as long as it's provided at a well-regulated voltage. Most battery companies seem to recommend between 13.6 and 13.8 volts for a "float charging" application - at this voltage, the battery will self-regulate the amount of current it takes and will not overcharge or electrolyze itself. One knowledgeable amateur I know, recommends sticking to a lower 13.5 volts to ensure safe float-charging under a wide range of charge conditions and temperatures. About a year ago I put together a simple float charger to keep the 65-amp-hour glassmat battery in our city's RACES ham-shack properly charged. It's a simple design, based on the jellybean LM317 three-terminal regulator IC and on the schematics in National Semiconductor's data sheet for this IC. My version includes reverse polarity and short-circuit protection, a charge float voltage which is adjustable over a span of a volt or so, and built-in current limiting to protect the wall wart (a 200 mA 16-volt unit, if I recall correctly). It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
In article ,
Bruce W...1 wrote: This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? I would guess that 100 milliamperes would be more than sufficient to overcome any self-discharge of the battery, as long as the vehicle doesn't have any electronics onboard which are drawing current. It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. You really don't want to do that. The reason is this: in order for a car battery to be drawing 1 amp of charge current on a continuous basis, you're going to have to boost the voltage up fairly high. You'd probably exceed the electrolysis voltage, and much of the current would end up breaking down the water in the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen. If your battery's design and chemistry don't allow the gasses to be recombined into water fast enough, you'd be at risk of "boiling" the battery dry. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Lead-acid batteries are happiest if you feed them a well-regulated charge/float voltage, with suitable current limiting. Using an unregulated or weakly-regulated 12-volt wall-wart is probably not a good idea - these wall warts tend to deliver a rather high voltage (often 16-18 volts) under conditions of little or no load. Depending on the specific wall-wart you choose, and the condition and type of your battery, you might end up electrolyzing away the water faster than the battery can recombine the hydrogen and oxygen. Losing a wall-wart would be annoying; losing the battery would be worse ;-) The best thing to do is get (or build) yourself some sort of well-regulated trickle charger. 100-200 mA is probably more than plenty for this application, as long as it's provided at a well-regulated voltage. Most battery companies seem to recommend between 13.6 and 13.8 volts for a "float charging" application - at this voltage, the battery will self-regulate the amount of current it takes and will not overcharge or electrolyze itself. One knowledgeable amateur I know, recommends sticking to a lower 13.5 volts to ensure safe float-charging under a wide range of charge conditions and temperatures. About a year ago I put together a simple float charger to keep the 65-amp-hour glassmat battery in our city's RACES ham-shack properly charged. It's a simple design, based on the jellybean LM317 three-terminal regulator IC and on the schematics in National Semiconductor's data sheet for this IC. My version includes reverse polarity and short-circuit protection, a charge float voltage which is adjustable over a span of a volt or so, and built-in current limiting to protect the wall wart (a 200 mA 16-volt unit, if I recall correctly). It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Bruce:
As others have indicated, you really want to use a regulated charging voltage to keep the battery up... The voltage is important, however, more important to getting the design right is knowing how much of a drain the automobile puts on the battery when "nothing" is going on... Many cars will drain a good battery in about a month, just from the residual drain that is the result of such things as clocks and memories in radios and such. Add anything else and you've got a good chance of needing significantly more charging current than you might at first think. You mention that you are worried about using a fancy trickle charger because it may get stolen, which implies that the car is outside in the elements, and not in a protected or secured environment. I'd be willing to bet that if you have to worry about someone stealing a trickle charger, you should probably be concerned about just about everything else too, once someone notices the car isn't moving and has a power cord going to it.... In addition, being concerned about a 1-amp wall wart, which are nearly a dime a dozen, may be false economy, considering the value of the car and items built or installed in it. Why wouldn't the tires and wheels disappear, or the battery itself? Same for radio and/or other accessories... or even perhaps the car itself. If you do go and build something to keep the battery up, bear in mind that you are probably going to need something with a voltage around 16 volts or so, given that most regulators require a couple of volts of headroom over the regulated voltage. This may take you into a range of supplies or wall warts that is higher than you may have on hand anyway. --Rick "Bruce W...1" wrote: This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
Bruce:
As others have indicated, you really want to use a regulated charging voltage to keep the battery up... The voltage is important, however, more important to getting the design right is knowing how much of a drain the automobile puts on the battery when "nothing" is going on... Many cars will drain a good battery in about a month, just from the residual drain that is the result of such things as clocks and memories in radios and such. Add anything else and you've got a good chance of needing significantly more charging current than you might at first think. You mention that you are worried about using a fancy trickle charger because it may get stolen, which implies that the car is outside in the elements, and not in a protected or secured environment. I'd be willing to bet that if you have to worry about someone stealing a trickle charger, you should probably be concerned about just about everything else too, once someone notices the car isn't moving and has a power cord going to it.... In addition, being concerned about a 1-amp wall wart, which are nearly a dime a dozen, may be false economy, considering the value of the car and items built or installed in it. Why wouldn't the tires and wheels disappear, or the battery itself? Same for radio and/or other accessories... or even perhaps the car itself. If you do go and build something to keep the battery up, bear in mind that you are probably going to need something with a voltage around 16 volts or so, given that most regulators require a couple of volts of headroom over the regulated voltage. This may take you into a range of supplies or wall warts that is higher than you may have on hand anyway. --Rick "Bruce W...1" wrote: This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
Get the least expensive battery charger you find and put a one of
those cheap little mechanical timers on it. And set the time to charge the battery for one hour each day. It will be like driving your car one hour per day. (Dave Platt) wrote in message ... In article , Bruce W...1 wrote: This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? I would guess that 100 milliamperes would be more than sufficient to overcome any self-discharge of the battery, as long as the vehicle doesn't have any electronics onboard which are drawing current. It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. You really don't want to do that. The reason is this: in order for a car battery to be drawing 1 amp of charge current on a continuous basis, you're going to have to boost the voltage up fairly high. You'd probably exceed the electrolysis voltage, and much of the current would end up breaking down the water in the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen. If your battery's design and chemistry don't allow the gasses to be recombined into water fast enough, you'd be at risk of "boiling" the battery dry. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Lead-acid batteries are happiest if you feed them a well-regulated charge/float voltage, with suitable current limiting. Using an unregulated or weakly-regulated 12-volt wall-wart is probably not a good idea - these wall warts tend to deliver a rather high voltage (often 16-18 volts) under conditions of little or no load. Depending on the specific wall-wart you choose, and the condition and type of your battery, you might end up electrolyzing away the water faster than the battery can recombine the hydrogen and oxygen. Losing a wall-wart would be annoying; losing the battery would be worse ;-) The best thing to do is get (or build) yourself some sort of well-regulated trickle charger. 100-200 mA is probably more than plenty for this application, as long as it's provided at a well-regulated voltage. Most battery companies seem to recommend between 13.6 and 13.8 volts for a "float charging" application - at this voltage, the battery will self-regulate the amount of current it takes and will not overcharge or electrolyze itself. One knowledgeable amateur I know, recommends sticking to a lower 13.5 volts to ensure safe float-charging under a wide range of charge conditions and temperatures. About a year ago I put together a simple float charger to keep the 65-amp-hour glassmat battery in our city's RACES ham-shack properly charged. It's a simple design, based on the jellybean LM317 three-terminal regulator IC and on the schematics in National Semiconductor's data sheet for this IC. My version includes reverse polarity and short-circuit protection, a charge float voltage which is adjustable over a span of a volt or so, and built-in current limiting to protect the wall wart (a 200 mA 16-volt unit, if I recall correctly). It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf |
Dave Platt wrote:
It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf Interesting circuit. I have to beg a fair amount of ignorance about battery behavior. I've got a couple of the smaller sealed lead-acid batteries - the one on the desk right now is 4Ah. Judging from what (little) I know about these batteries, I presume it would be safe to use your circuit as-is - that the maximum 200mA charging current, while intended to protect the unregulated source, would also be low enough to not overheat the battery. -- Doug Smith W9WI Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66 http://www.w9wi.com |
Dave Platt wrote:
It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf Interesting circuit. I have to beg a fair amount of ignorance about battery behavior. I've got a couple of the smaller sealed lead-acid batteries - the one on the desk right now is 4Ah. Judging from what (little) I know about these batteries, I presume it would be safe to use your circuit as-is - that the maximum 200mA charging current, while intended to protect the unregulated source, would also be low enough to not overheat the battery. -- Doug Smith W9WI Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66 http://www.w9wi.com |
Rick Frazier wrote:
Bruce: As others have indicated, you really want to use a regulated charging voltage to keep the battery up... The voltage is important, however, more important to getting the design right is knowing how much of a drain the automobile puts on the battery when "nothing" is going on... Many cars will drain a good battery in about a month, just from the residual drain that is the result of such things as clocks and memories in radios and such. Add anything else and you've got a good chance of needing significantly more charging current than you might at first think. You mention that you are worried about using a fancy trickle charger because it may get stolen, which implies that the car is outside in the elements, and not in a protected or secured environment. I'd be willing to bet that if you have to worry about someone stealing a trickle charger, you should probably be concerned about just about everything else too, once someone notices the car isn't moving and has a power cord going to it.... In addition, being concerned about a 1-amp wall wart, which are nearly a dime a dozen, may be false economy, considering the value of the car and items built or installed in it. Why wouldn't the tires and wheels disappear, or the battery itself? Same for radio and/or other accessories... or even perhaps the car itself. If you do go and build something to keep the battery up, bear in mind that you are probably going to need something with a voltage around 16 volts or so, given that most regulators require a couple of volts of headroom over the regulated voltage. This may take you into a range of supplies or wall warts that is higher than you may have on hand anyway. --Rick ================================================== ==== You guys are getting unnecessarily complex me thinks. Yes a voltage regulator would be nice but not really essential. And this might get stolen too. Besides, if I was going to go to that effort I'd just buy a float charger (about $25). The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. So I'd rather not spend money when I have a plethora of wall warts. The car does have an alarm but I don't know how much current it pulls. Case, I've got one wall wart which has a 17V open voltage. When I pull it down to 12.0 volts the current is 120 mA. Might this work? I could increase the size of the transformer if needed. It's just that I haven't yet figured out what's needed. Lead-acid batteries have a rated current at which they can be float charged without causing any damage. This is the number I need, but have not been able to find it. Here's a related article: http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm |
Rick Frazier wrote:
Bruce: As others have indicated, you really want to use a regulated charging voltage to keep the battery up... The voltage is important, however, more important to getting the design right is knowing how much of a drain the automobile puts on the battery when "nothing" is going on... Many cars will drain a good battery in about a month, just from the residual drain that is the result of such things as clocks and memories in radios and such. Add anything else and you've got a good chance of needing significantly more charging current than you might at first think. You mention that you are worried about using a fancy trickle charger because it may get stolen, which implies that the car is outside in the elements, and not in a protected or secured environment. I'd be willing to bet that if you have to worry about someone stealing a trickle charger, you should probably be concerned about just about everything else too, once someone notices the car isn't moving and has a power cord going to it.... In addition, being concerned about a 1-amp wall wart, which are nearly a dime a dozen, may be false economy, considering the value of the car and items built or installed in it. Why wouldn't the tires and wheels disappear, or the battery itself? Same for radio and/or other accessories... or even perhaps the car itself. If you do go and build something to keep the battery up, bear in mind that you are probably going to need something with a voltage around 16 volts or so, given that most regulators require a couple of volts of headroom over the regulated voltage. This may take you into a range of supplies or wall warts that is higher than you may have on hand anyway. --Rick ================================================== ==== You guys are getting unnecessarily complex me thinks. Yes a voltage regulator would be nice but not really essential. And this might get stolen too. Besides, if I was going to go to that effort I'd just buy a float charger (about $25). The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. So I'd rather not spend money when I have a plethora of wall warts. The car does have an alarm but I don't know how much current it pulls. Case, I've got one wall wart which has a 17V open voltage. When I pull it down to 12.0 volts the current is 120 mA. Might this work? I could increase the size of the transformer if needed. It's just that I haven't yet figured out what's needed. Lead-acid batteries have a rated current at which they can be float charged without causing any damage. This is the number I need, but have not been able to find it. Here's a related article: http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm |
I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I
want to put a tricke charge on the battery. ....[snip].... Although their normal price is about $15, float battery chargers (wall wart, coiled cord, little black box with LED, two cords with large alligator clips on the ends) are often advertised in Harbor Freight catalogs for $7.99. I must have half a dozen of them now, keeping batteries here and there up to snuff. I've never measured them, but they seem to do a real good job, and they're hard to beat at that price! I have no connection to Harbor Freight except as a satisfied customer, --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I
want to put a tricke charge on the battery. ....[snip].... Although their normal price is about $15, float battery chargers (wall wart, coiled cord, little black box with LED, two cords with large alligator clips on the ends) are often advertised in Harbor Freight catalogs for $7.99. I must have half a dozen of them now, keeping batteries here and there up to snuff. I've never measured them, but they seem to do a real good job, and they're hard to beat at that price! I have no connection to Harbor Freight except as a satisfied customer, --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
In article ,
Doug Smith W9WI wrote: Dave Platt wrote: It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf Interesting circuit. I have to beg a fair amount of ignorance about battery behavior. I've got a couple of the smaller sealed lead-acid batteries - the one on the desk right now is 4Ah. Judging from what (little) I know about these batteries, I presume it would be safe to use your circuit as-is - that the maximum 200mA charging current, while intended to protect the unregulated source, would also be low enough to not overheat the battery. Should be fine. According to the Power-Sonic Technical Handbook (http://216.87.171.32/manuals/techman.pdf) charge currents should not be allowed to exceed 0.20 * C amperes - which would be 800 mA for a 4Ah battery. I prefer to stick to 0.10 * C amperes if I can afford to wait overnight for the battery to charge. I mis-stated the actual current limit provided by the schematic I posted... this schematic is a modified version of what I actually built, and has a higher current limit which would allow it to be used with a larger wall-wart. The current limit is set by the value of R4 - the charger goes into current-limiting when the voltage drop across this resistor reaches 0.7 volts and turns on Q1. The 1-ohm value in the schematic sets the limiting point at 700 mA (not a bad value to use when charging a standard 7Ah gel cell). 3 ohms would give you a bit more than 200 mA. In actual use, when charging gel cells, you're likely to find that the charging circuit only goes into current-limit if the battery is quite deeply discharged. Once the battery charges up to a significant fraction of its total capacity, its terminal voltage will rise up to 13.5 (or whatever float voltage you've tweaked the charger for) and the current flow will decrease, bringing the charger out of limiting. It will then charge at a slower (and steadily decreasing) rate until fully replenished, and will then draw perhaps 0.01 * C amperes of float/trickle charge current indefinitely. In order to charge the battery more rapidly, you'd need to set the charge voltage up to 14.4 volts or so (the "fast charge" voltage region) and then set it back down again once the current flow had dropped below 0.01 * C. Commercial battery chargers often use this sort of dual-voltage charging scheme to allow for faster recharge. Note that you should _not_ use this sort of "higher voltage for fast charging" technique when charging starved-electrolyte (glass mat) lead-acid batteries - they are rather intolerant of higher charge voltages and should not be charged at above 13.8 volts. However, using a higher charge voltage really isn't necessary with these batteries... they'll soak up charge amazingly fast at 13.6 - 13.8 volts. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
In article ,
Doug Smith W9WI wrote: Dave Platt wrote: It's not a bad one-afternoon project and the components are the sort of thing most homebrewers are likely to have in their junk-box. Schematic is at http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamradio/charger.pdf Interesting circuit. I have to beg a fair amount of ignorance about battery behavior. I've got a couple of the smaller sealed lead-acid batteries - the one on the desk right now is 4Ah. Judging from what (little) I know about these batteries, I presume it would be safe to use your circuit as-is - that the maximum 200mA charging current, while intended to protect the unregulated source, would also be low enough to not overheat the battery. Should be fine. According to the Power-Sonic Technical Handbook (http://216.87.171.32/manuals/techman.pdf) charge currents should not be allowed to exceed 0.20 * C amperes - which would be 800 mA for a 4Ah battery. I prefer to stick to 0.10 * C amperes if I can afford to wait overnight for the battery to charge. I mis-stated the actual current limit provided by the schematic I posted... this schematic is a modified version of what I actually built, and has a higher current limit which would allow it to be used with a larger wall-wart. The current limit is set by the value of R4 - the charger goes into current-limiting when the voltage drop across this resistor reaches 0.7 volts and turns on Q1. The 1-ohm value in the schematic sets the limiting point at 700 mA (not a bad value to use when charging a standard 7Ah gel cell). 3 ohms would give you a bit more than 200 mA. In actual use, when charging gel cells, you're likely to find that the charging circuit only goes into current-limit if the battery is quite deeply discharged. Once the battery charges up to a significant fraction of its total capacity, its terminal voltage will rise up to 13.5 (or whatever float voltage you've tweaked the charger for) and the current flow will decrease, bringing the charger out of limiting. It will then charge at a slower (and steadily decreasing) rate until fully replenished, and will then draw perhaps 0.01 * C amperes of float/trickle charge current indefinitely. In order to charge the battery more rapidly, you'd need to set the charge voltage up to 14.4 volts or so (the "fast charge" voltage region) and then set it back down again once the current flow had dropped below 0.01 * C. Commercial battery chargers often use this sort of dual-voltage charging scheme to allow for faster recharge. Note that you should _not_ use this sort of "higher voltage for fast charging" technique when charging starved-electrolyte (glass mat) lead-acid batteries - they are rather intolerant of higher charge voltages and should not be charged at above 13.8 volts. However, using a higher charge voltage really isn't necessary with these batteries... they'll soak up charge amazingly fast at 13.6 - 13.8 volts. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once
a week. Wow, that is a revelation. I hope most people reading this group would know that. 73 Gary N4AST |
Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once
a week. Wow, that is a revelation. I hope most people reading this group would know that. 73 Gary N4AST |
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:50:45 -0600, "Clifton T. Sharp Jr."
wrote: Bruce W...1 wrote: The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, sense the voltage level and charge it up to 14.4V (for this cold area), and switch off the charger until it is down to 50% again.... I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery 73 Jan-Martin, LA8AK http://home.online.no/~la8ak/ -- remove ,xnd to reply (Spam precaution!) |
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:50:45 -0600, "Clifton T. Sharp Jr."
wrote: Bruce W...1 wrote: The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, sense the voltage level and charge it up to 14.4V (for this cold area), and switch off the charger until it is down to 50% again.... I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery 73 Jan-Martin, LA8AK http://home.online.no/~la8ak/ -- remove ,xnd to reply (Spam precaution!) |
In article ,
J M Noeding wrote: Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, sense the voltage level and charge it up to 14.4V (for this cold area), and switch off the charger until it is down to 50% again.... As I understand it, that's exactly the opposite sort of regime that a car battery prefers. Car batteries are designed to provide large amounts of current for engine cranking, even when cold. One of the tradeoffs in this design, unfortunately, is that they do not tolerate deep (or even heavy) discharge at all well. Discharging a car battery down to 50% and then recharging it, repeatedly, is likely to greatly shorten its life. The plates will quite literally fall apart. Batteries having a different internal construction can handle deep discharge quite a bit better. The older sort of "marine deep-cycle" battery (designed for electric trolling motors) were quite good - but I'm told that modern "marine deep-cycle" batteries are more like car batteries in their design and no longer have a big advantage in terms of deep-discharge life. The best ones for deep discharge, today, seem to be the starved-electrolyte (glass mat), and spiral-cell types. These are often used for telecom backup applications, large UPS systems, wheelchair motor, and electric-tractor/golfcart applications. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
In article ,
J M Noeding wrote: Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, sense the voltage level and charge it up to 14.4V (for this cold area), and switch off the charger until it is down to 50% again.... As I understand it, that's exactly the opposite sort of regime that a car battery prefers. Car batteries are designed to provide large amounts of current for engine cranking, even when cold. One of the tradeoffs in this design, unfortunately, is that they do not tolerate deep (or even heavy) discharge at all well. Discharging a car battery down to 50% and then recharging it, repeatedly, is likely to greatly shorten its life. The plates will quite literally fall apart. Batteries having a different internal construction can handle deep discharge quite a bit better. The older sort of "marine deep-cycle" battery (designed for electric trolling motors) were quite good - but I'm told that modern "marine deep-cycle" batteries are more like car batteries in their design and no longer have a big advantage in terms of deep-discharge life. The best ones for deep discharge, today, seem to be the starved-electrolyte (glass mat), and spiral-cell types. These are often used for telecom backup applications, large UPS systems, wheelchair motor, and electric-tractor/golfcart applications. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
In normal operation a car battery doesn't get discharged to 50% and
then recharged. The starter draws a large amount of current for a very short time and then the alternator keeps the battery charged and supplys the current for the vehicle. It seems to me like this would be very close to keeping the battery on a trickle charge. |
In normal operation a car battery doesn't get discharged to 50% and
then recharged. The starter draws a large amount of current for a very short time and then the alternator keeps the battery charged and supplys the current for the vehicle. It seems to me like this would be very close to keeping the battery on a trickle charge. |
"Bruce W...1" wrote: You guys are getting unnecessarily complex me thinks. Then you think wrong. Your own reference tells you to use a regulated voltage for float charging. Yes a voltage regulator would be nice but not really essential. No, a voltage regulator is essential for float charging. And this might get stolen too. Besides, if I was going to go to that effort I'd just buy a float charger (about $25). And if you build a voltage regulator using the recommended LM317 and one of the wall warts you already own, you'll spend less than 5 dollars. If you don't have a suitable wall wart, adding the cost of that will still leave you WAY under 25 bucks. The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. So I'd rather not spend money when I have a plethora of wall warts. The car does have an alarm but I don't know how much current it pulls. And "keep alive" current for the radio and microprocessors and clock and ?? totals how much? Case, I've got one wall wart which has a 17V open voltage. When I pull it down to 12.0 volts the current is 120 mA. Might this work? Yes - if the battery starts out fully charged, and if the current drain on the battery is only a few mA, and if you add an LM317, a resistor and a pot and a diode to make a protected (by the diode) voltage regulator. See the datasheet at http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf for a diagram (minus the diode). Add a diode between the input and output of the LM317, banded end toward the input. I could increase the size of the transformer if needed. It's just that I haven't yet figured out what's needed. Lead-acid batteries have a rated current at which they can be float charged without causing any damage. No - not a current. You want a regulated voltage for float charging. This is the number I need, but have not been able to find it. Read the article you mentioned (below). It says: "Next comes the Float Step. This is a regulated voltage of not more than 13.4 volts and usually less than 1 amp of current." Here's a related article: http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm |
"Bruce W...1" wrote: You guys are getting unnecessarily complex me thinks. Then you think wrong. Your own reference tells you to use a regulated voltage for float charging. Yes a voltage regulator would be nice but not really essential. No, a voltage regulator is essential for float charging. And this might get stolen too. Besides, if I was going to go to that effort I'd just buy a float charger (about $25). And if you build a voltage regulator using the recommended LM317 and one of the wall warts you already own, you'll spend less than 5 dollars. If you don't have a suitable wall wart, adding the cost of that will still leave you WAY under 25 bucks. The car is in a garage in a good neighborhood but the owner of the garage is on and extended vacation. The theives I'm worried about are neighborhood children. Actually it's the homeowner's car, I'm just doing them a favor, and saving myself from having to go there to start the car once a week. So I'd rather not spend money when I have a plethora of wall warts. The car does have an alarm but I don't know how much current it pulls. And "keep alive" current for the radio and microprocessors and clock and ?? totals how much? Case, I've got one wall wart which has a 17V open voltage. When I pull it down to 12.0 volts the current is 120 mA. Might this work? Yes - if the battery starts out fully charged, and if the current drain on the battery is only a few mA, and if you add an LM317, a resistor and a pot and a diode to make a protected (by the diode) voltage regulator. See the datasheet at http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf for a diagram (minus the diode). Add a diode between the input and output of the LM317, banded end toward the input. I could increase the size of the transformer if needed. It's just that I haven't yet figured out what's needed. Lead-acid batteries have a rated current at which they can be float charged without causing any damage. No - not a current. You want a regulated voltage for float charging. This is the number I need, but have not been able to find it. Read the article you mentioned (below). It says: "Next comes the Float Step. This is a regulated voltage of not more than 13.4 volts and usually less than 1 amp of current." Here's a related article: http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm |
Stupid question but is there any possible way to get to the vehicle at least
once a month or can someone you know and trust gain access to the car at least once or twice a month??? Unless you have a problem with your battery and/or charging system, having someone start the vehicle and let it run for roughly 10-15 minutes seems like an easier solution. -- Ryan KC8PMX Why is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a barbecue? "Bruce W...1" wrote in message ... This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
Stupid question but is there any possible way to get to the vehicle at least
once a month or can someone you know and trust gain access to the car at least once or twice a month??? Unless you have a problem with your battery and/or charging system, having someone start the vehicle and let it run for roughly 10-15 minutes seems like an easier solution. -- Ryan KC8PMX Why is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a barbecue? "Bruce W...1" wrote in message ... This is not ham radio related but I know you guys have the answer. I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. I'd rather not buy a fancy trickle charger because it would probably get stolen. On the other hand I have a vast array of wall wart transformers. If I connected one of these transformers how many milliamps should it put out at 12V? Or rather what's the least current that would do the job? It seems that lead acid batteries can dissipate too much current as heat. In other words I could probably feed it one amp continuously. But would 100 mA at 12V do the job? I'd hate to lose a 1-Amp wall wart. Thanks for your help. |
I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this
application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery ==== A leisure type (deep cycle) battery is fine for a moderate load for a relatively long time ,since the plates are relatively thick. However they are not suitable for engine starting purposes ,since brief demands for a high starting current cannot be met reliably over time. That's why car batteries have relatively thin plates with a large area capable of supplying the high starting current. If a car is kept outdoors it is worthwhile employing a small solar panel positioned near the south face of the car with its lead plugged into the cigarette lighter socket. This will keep the battery in a healthy condition. I have seen these solar panels advertised by the car accessories trade. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this
application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery ==== A leisure type (deep cycle) battery is fine for a moderate load for a relatively long time ,since the plates are relatively thick. However they are not suitable for engine starting purposes ,since brief demands for a high starting current cannot be met reliably over time. That's why car batteries have relatively thin plates with a large area capable of supplying the high starting current. If a car is kept outdoors it is worthwhile employing a small solar panel positioned near the south face of the car with its lead plugged into the cigarette lighter socket. This will keep the battery in a healthy condition. I have seen these solar panels advertised by the car accessories trade. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Frank Dinger wrote:
I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery ==== A leisure type (deep cycle) battery is fine for a moderate load for a relatively long time ,since the plates are relatively thick. However they are not suitable for engine starting purposes ,since brief demands for a high starting current cannot be met reliably over time. That's why car batteries have relatively thin plates with a large area capable of supplying the high starting current. If a car is kept outdoors it is worthwhile employing a small solar panel positioned near the south face of the car with its lead plugged into the cigarette lighter socket. This will keep the battery in a healthy condition. I have seen these solar panels advertised by the car accessories trade. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH ================================================== =========== In the past I've maintained car batteries for many months using a small (2" x 8") solar panel made for this purpose. How much current could this put out? I don't know but I'm sure it's not much. Nowhere near one ampere. It contained a diode and no voltage regulator. This is the same effect I want to achieve with a small wall wart. If it's safe to float charge the battery at .01 C indefinitely, say 700 mA for a 70 AH car battery, then anything under 700 mA is also safe. My 200 mA wall wart is safe. The question then is what is the self discharge rate, less things like an alarm and clock? |
Frank Dinger wrote:
I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far better economy to buy a leisure type battery ==== A leisure type (deep cycle) battery is fine for a moderate load for a relatively long time ,since the plates are relatively thick. However they are not suitable for engine starting purposes ,since brief demands for a high starting current cannot be met reliably over time. That's why car batteries have relatively thin plates with a large area capable of supplying the high starting current. If a car is kept outdoors it is worthwhile employing a small solar panel positioned near the south face of the car with its lead plugged into the cigarette lighter socket. This will keep the battery in a healthy condition. I have seen these solar panels advertised by the car accessories trade. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH ================================================== =========== In the past I've maintained car batteries for many months using a small (2" x 8") solar panel made for this purpose. How much current could this put out? I don't know but I'm sure it's not much. Nowhere near one ampere. It contained a diode and no voltage regulator. This is the same effect I want to achieve with a small wall wart. If it's safe to float charge the battery at .01 C indefinitely, say 700 mA for a 70 AH car battery, then anything under 700 mA is also safe. My 200 mA wall wart is safe. The question then is what is the self discharge rate, less things like an alarm and clock? |
mcalhoun wrote:
I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. ....[snip].... Although their normal price is about $15, float battery chargers (wall wart, coiled cord, little black box with LED, two cords with large alligator clips on the ends) are often advertised in Harbor Freight catalogs for $7.99. I must have half a dozen of them now, keeping batteries here and there up to snuff. I've never measured them, but they seem to do a real good job, and they're hard to beat at that price! I have no connection to Harbor Freight except as a satisfied customer, --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) ================================================== ===== You don't say! Have you ever measured their voltage? Or is it written on the case? |
mcalhoun wrote:
I need to store a car unattended for a winter in the midwest. And I want to put a tricke charge on the battery. ....[snip].... Although their normal price is about $15, float battery chargers (wall wart, coiled cord, little black box with LED, two cords with large alligator clips on the ends) are often advertised in Harbor Freight catalogs for $7.99. I must have half a dozen of them now, keeping batteries here and there up to snuff. I've never measured them, but they seem to do a real good job, and they're hard to beat at that price! I have no connection to Harbor Freight except as a satisfied customer, --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) ================================================== ===== You don't say! Have you ever measured their voltage? Or is it written on the case? |
Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once
a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, ....[snip].... I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far ....[snip].... I understand that battery electrolyte becomes stratified if the batteries don't receive the shaking they would normally get through vehicle motion OR by charging hard enough that the electrolyte "boils" enough to mix itself up. I do know that the batteries I've used to power all of my 'shack radios for the last 25 years do NOT last any longer (as I thought they would) in a quiet/protective environment than the same batteries I put in my vehicles! --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
Keeping the battery charged is not the only reason to start the car once
a week. Suppose it means that a car battery won't last long if you keep it steady at top charge level, instead of decharge it down towards 50%, ....[snip].... I was told that a car battery wouldn't last long anyway for this application, so even when my car battery is 6-7 years old, it wouldnt't last more than a year when trickle charged, while it is far ....[snip].... I understand that battery electrolyte becomes stratified if the batteries don't receive the shaking they would normally get through vehicle motion OR by charging hard enough that the electrolyte "boils" enough to mix itself up. I do know that the batteries I've used to power all of my 'shack radios for the last 25 years do NOT last any longer (as I thought they would) in a quiet/protective environment than the same batteries I put in my vehicles! --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
Harbor Freight $7.99 float chargers:
You don't say! Have you ever measured their voltage? Or is it written on the case? I never had, so I went out (to the garage; brrrr!) and measured one: 13.58 volts. FWIW, the wallwart says "15VAC at 600 ma", but there's a little plastic box on the wires between the wart and the battery clips. --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
Harbor Freight $7.99 float chargers:
You don't say! Have you ever measured their voltage? Or is it written on the case? I never had, so I went out (to the garage; brrrr!) and measured one: 13.58 volts. FWIW, the wallwart says "15VAC at 600 ma", but there's a little plastic box on the wires between the wart and the battery clips. --Myron. -- Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge PhD EE (retired). "Barbershop" tenor. CDL(PTX). W0PBV. (785) 539-4448 NRA Life Member and Certified Instructor (Home Firearm Safety, Rifle, Pistol) |
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:09:46 -0500, Bruce W...1 wrote:
mcalhoun wrote: Although their normal price is about $15, float battery chargers (wall wart, coiled cord, little black box with LED, two cords with large alligator clips on the ends) are often advertised in Harbor Freight catalogs for $7.99. I must have half a dozen of them now, keeping batteries here and there up to snuff. I've never measured them, but they seem to do a real good job, and they're hard to beat at that price! I have no connection to Harbor Freight except as a satisfied customer, Ditto to all of the above. You don't say! Have you ever measured their voltage? Or is it written on the case? Mine vary between 13.5v to 13.6v. If you open the little plastic box between the transformer and the battery terminals you will find a little adjustment that will let you tweak the voltage. I have two different styles, one with curly coiled leads and one with straight leads. I think the straight lead is older and has been obsoleted. Too bad, because they made a nice low-current adjustable power supply. :) The curly lead ones don't. But they both seem to do a fine job of keeping lead acid batts up to snuff. I have a couple on my bench. One set to 13.6v and one to 14.1v. I put a gel cell on the 14.1v to charge after use, then on to the 13.6v to maintain ready for next time. I have one in the barn. I cut off the clamps and put on a pair of anderson powerpole connectors. A matching connector on my lawn tractor allows me to easily attach with no concern for polarity mismatch whether it is me or anyone else. I got 5 seasons from the last battery, which is pretty good for a lawn tractor that sits pretty much unused october thru april. sdb -- | Sylvan Butler | Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard | sbutler-boi.hp.com | | Watch out for my e-mail address. Thank UCE. change ^ to @ | It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:49 AM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com