"David Forsyth" wrote in message
...
Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology? I
know they had FM on a lower frequency band at that time.

About half the present frequency.

What sorts of
tubes could one use from the 1930's to make a reciever that could tune in
the modern FM band?

It was something of an effort for them to reach even 50 MHz. Tubes like the
6AC7 would have some gain. No one building entertainment radios had heard
of noise figure, so their sensitivity was terrible by post-war standards.
One of the most popular and best prewar tuners was the GE JFM-90. Its front
end was two pentode mixers, one after the other. Its noise figure must have
been astronomical. At least 20 or 30 dB worse than today's radios.

I'm sure I wont actually attempt such a thing,
especially any time soon, but just wondered how difficult it might be.

The main problem would be the large cpapacitance in the big octal tubes.
IIRC, the first all-glass 7-pin miniature tubes didn't appear until 1940-41,
the 9001, 9002, and 9003. You could build a fair set with them given
today's knowledge.

Are
there any schematics or construction articles from the late 30's about
making FM radios that might be adapted over to the new FM band?

The new band wasn't chosen until about the end of WW2, so prewar sets
weren't designed with it in mind. There were only a dozen or so operating
FM stations before WW2, so there wasn't a lot of discussion of the
technology. I have/had a just-prewar book of build-it-yourself radios put
out by Popular Science (I think) which had an FM set. It was pretty
complicated. They hadn't learned how to cut corners. The IF in old-band sets
was 4.3 MHz, not today's 10.7 MHz. The lower frequency allowed better gain
with the tubes at hand, and the narrower FM band didn't result in inband
images. Modulation, etc, was the same as today.

Some of old VHF Hallicrafters sets used the acorn 954, 955, etc, tubes.
They would do ok at 100 MHz, but were exotic and never used in consumer
equipment.

In article , "David Forsyth"
writes:

Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology? I
know they had FM on a lower frequency band at that time. What sorts of
tubes could one use from the 1930's to make a reciever that could tune in
the modern FM band? I'm sure I wont actually attempt such a thing,
especially any time soon, but just wondered how difficult it might be. Are
there any schematics or construction articles from the late 30's about
making FM radios that might be adapted over to the new FM band?

I doubt you will find much in amateur radio periodicals. They do
exist in various corporate libraries, though, since the VHF and up
radios were being pioneered in the late 1930s, some of the first being
police mobile radios. Those would evolve into the SCR-300 backpack
"walkie-talkie" of WW2 Army use and those shiny chrome button
channel select "tank radios" used mobile back then. The AN/TRC-1
through TRC-4 of WW2 times was low VHF (70 to 90 MHz) using
octal base tubes, PM with lots of multiplier stages following a MF
crystal oscillator.

Of course there are lead length problems with big bases as well as
the electrode connecting leads within bigger tube envelopes. What
most folks don't consider is the electron transit time within the tube
structure. That is slower than the speed of light (don't have an exact
value handy) and will cause a significant phase change between
grid input and plate output at VHF and above. The "lighthouse" triode
structure (ultimate may be the 2C39) has terribly short tube electrode
spacings allowing operation on up to 2.5 GHz...very quick electron
transit time internally.

Note: Klystrons and magnetrons go much higher in frequency. In the
case of the klystron, an integral tuned cavity structure is an absolute
requirement for operation. The magnetron depends upon both the
diode spacing (it is only a diode) and the magnetic field and the voltage
and the output tuned cavity structure to oscillate at X-band.

Anyone can play games with old, big tubes used at low-VHF and
arrange all kinds of neat tuned circuits to work with long leads and the
long electron transit time. Problem is, the amount of extra components
isn't really worth it. Whenever a tube has to be replaced (happened
often due to filament technology still lagging) then you would need to
do a humongous amount of retuning. About the only thing workable
for the oldie tubes is the distributed amplifier wherein LOTS of tubes
were arranged along tapped delay lines for grid inputs and plate
outputs. [the Tektronix 54x series of oscilloscopes uses such an
arrangment as the final CRT voltage driver for vertical deflection
plates] Very good as a space heater for a residence in winter...

The electron transit time thing is akin to a low f_sub_t in transistors.
Such low f_sub_t bipolars might be okay on low HF but their
characteristics don't allow good amplification or easy oscillation at
VHF and higher. Some of the newer SiGe bipolars have f_sub_ts in
the tens of GHz range.

Electron transit time depends on filament-cathode temperature, tube
geometry (and element spacings), and accelerating potential (screen
and plate quiescent voltage). There's no precise value that fits all
tubes. To view what did work at 70-90 MHz, find an old AN/TRC-1
Technical Manual and see which octal base tubes were used there.
The transmitter box final amplifier was an 829, good for about 50 W,
but not an octal base tube.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person
[and caretaker of TRC-1s and TRC-8s a half century ago, among
other tube-based radios]

You're going to have a bit of trouble with the older tubes. They had long
skinny leads leading down to those high-capacitance octal bases.

Hams were able to get things going up around 140Mc/s, but it was mainly
super-regen receivers.

If you want to try it, I'd find the smallest dual-triodes of that era, say
6SN7's, and make up at least one maybe two cascode Rf amplifier stages, then
another triode mixer, then maybe another cascode first IF amp. By then you
should have enough signal to start using old pentodes as IF amplifiers. If
localts are allowed, the 7F7 IIRC is probably a much lower capacitance
dual-triode.

I do recall one post-war Sparton FM set that used a 6AC7 as the RF
amplifier, a 7Q7 (loctal 6SA7) as the osc/mixer, then three 6SJ7's for IF
amplifiers and limiters. Worked surprisingly well.

As I recall, Armstrong invented and patented the FM radio before WWII.
If I'm correct, his patent should show a schematic of the circuit he
used. It's probably still available from the patent office.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

David Forsyth wrote:

Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a receiver
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology? I
know they had FM on a lower frequency band at that time.

I have a few pre war FM sets, see
http://www.geocities.com/wa2ise/radios/fm45.html

What sorts of
tubes could one use from the 1930's to make a receiver that could tune in
the modern FM band?

Focus on the front end. Once you get to the IF, then my Emerson 460 pre
war set
would have the same technology as your "what if" set. I think acorn
tubes were pre war,
and were designed for VHF service. 2 or 3 such tubes (one RF amp,
another local
osc, and the 3rd the mixer) should make a good 100MHz front end. The
above Emerson
had an IF around 4 or was it 8 MHz, used octal tubes like 6SG7 and 6SH7
and a 6H6
for an FM detector.

In article , "David Forsyth"
writes:

Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology? I
know they had FM on a lower frequency band at that time. What sorts of
tubes could one use from the 1930's to make a reciever that could tune in
the modern FM band? I'm sure I wont actually attempt such a thing,
especially any time soon, but just wondered how difficult it might be. Are
there any schematics or construction articles from the late 30's about
making FM radios that might be adapted over to the new FM band?

I doubt you will find much in amateur radio periodicals. They do
exist in various corporate libraries, though, since the VHF and up
radios were being pioneered in the late 1930s, some of the first being
police mobile radios. Those would evolve into the SCR-300 backpack
"walkie-talkie" of WW2 Army use and those shiny chrome button
channel select "tank radios" used mobile back then. The AN/TRC-1
through TRC-4 of WW2 times was low VHF (70 to 90 MHz) using
octal base tubes, PM with lots of multiplier stages following a MF
crystal oscillator.

Of course there are lead length problems with big bases as well as
the electrode connecting leads within bigger tube envelopes. What
most folks don't consider is the electron transit time within the tube
structure. That is slower than the speed of light (don't have an exact
value handy) and will cause a significant phase change between
grid input and plate output at VHF and above. The "lighthouse" triode
structure (ultimate may be the 2C39) has terribly short tube electrode
spacings allowing operation on up to 2.5 GHz...very quick electron
transit time internally.

Note: Klystrons and magnetrons go much higher in frequency. In the
case of the klystron, an integral tuned cavity structure is an absolute
requirement for operation. The magnetron depends upon both the
diode spacing (it is only a diode) and the magnetic field and the voltage
and the output tuned cavity structure to oscillate at X-band.

Anyone can play games with old, big tubes used at low-VHF and
arrange all kinds of neat tuned circuits to work with long leads and the
long electron transit time. Problem is, the amount of extra components
isn't really worth it. Whenever a tube has to be replaced (happened
often due to filament technology still lagging) then you would need to
do a humongous amount of retuning. About the only thing workable
for the oldie tubes is the distributed amplifier wherein LOTS of tubes
were arranged along tapped delay lines for grid inputs and plate
outputs. [the Tektronix 54x series of oscilloscopes uses such an
arrangment as the final CRT voltage driver for vertical deflection
plates] Very good as a space heater for a residence in winter...

The electron transit time thing is akin to a low f_sub_t in transistors.
Such low f_sub_t bipolars might be okay on low HF but their
characteristics don't allow good amplification or easy oscillation at
VHF and higher. Some of the newer SiGe bipolars have f_sub_ts in
the tens of GHz range.

Electron transit time depends on filament-cathode temperature, tube
geometry (and element spacings), and accelerating potential (screen
and plate quiescent voltage). There's no precise value that fits all
tubes. To view what did work at 70-90 MHz, find an old AN/TRC-1
Technical Manual and see which octal base tubes were used there.
The transmitter box final amplifier was an 829, good for about 50 W,
but not an octal base tube.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person
[and caretaker of TRC-1s and TRC-8s a half century ago, among
other tube-based radios]

You're going to have a bit of trouble with the older tubes. They had long
skinny leads leading down to those high-capacitance octal bases.

Hams were able to get things going up around 140Mc/s, but it was mainly
super-regen receivers.

If you want to try it, I'd find the smallest dual-triodes of that era, say
6SN7's, and make up at least one maybe two cascode Rf amplifier stages, then
another triode mixer, then maybe another cascode first IF amp. By then you
should have enough signal to start using old pentodes as IF amplifiers. If
localts are allowed, the 7F7 IIRC is probably a much lower capacitance
dual-triode.

I do recall one post-war Sparton FM set that used a 6AC7 as the RF
amplifier, a 7Q7 (loctal 6SA7) as the osc/mixer, then three 6SJ7's for IF
amplifiers and limiters. Worked surprisingly well.

"David Forsyth" wrote in message
...
Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology? I
know they had FM on a lower frequency band at that time. What sorts of
tubes could one use from the 1930's to make a reciever that could tune in
the modern FM band? I'm sure I wont actually attempt such a thing,
especially any time soon, but just wondered how difficult it might be.
Are
there any schematics or construction articles from the late 30's about
making FM radios that might be adapted over to the new FM band?

just curious,

Dave

Hi,
Dave asked:

Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology?

The Hallicrafters S-37 tunes 130 to 210 MHz and although it dates
from 1945, it uses 954 acorn tubes and could have been made with 1930s
technology. There's a front-panel selector for AM or FM (narrowband
most likely, but the manual doesn't say and I've never tried running
mine).

73, Alan

"Alan Douglas" adouglasatgis.net wrote in message
...
Hi,
Dave asked:

Would it be possible, though not necessarily practical, to make a
reciever
for the modern FM broadcast band, using only pre-WWII tube technology?

The Hallicrafters S-37 tunes 130 to 210 MHz and although it dates
from 1945, it uses 954 acorn tubes and could have been made with 1930s
technology. There's a front-panel selector for AM or FM (narrowband
most likely, but the manual doesn't say and I've never tried running
mine).

Wideband. I suspect that the S-37 and S-36 differed only in tuning range.
The S-36 had an IF bandwidth suitable for FM broadcast. The wouldn't have
been any narrow FM in that frequency range in 1945. Certainly no land
mobile, and wasn't land mobile about 20-30 kHz wide until post-WW2? Crystal
frequency stability didn't get good enough for NBFM at high VHF until the
hermetic holders like the HC-6, which are post-WW2, aren't they.

Even HC-6 and snap-action thermostat ovens could be pretty awful. Collins
built very special 400 MHz radios for an Air Force project I was on in the
early 1950s. Listening to their output frequency with BFO on you heard a kHz
or more of drift, with the fractional-minute cycling of the thermostat/oven.
Our digital modulation was 180-degree-shift PSK of the 400 MHz carrier, and
couldn't stand all that short-term drift. The solution was to disconnect
the oven's heater. We could stand slow drift.