In article , "xpyttl"
writes:

"Avery Fineman" wrote in message
...
In article , "Tim Wescott"
writes:

NONE of the above is "trivial" nor any sort of "cake" if you've never
worked with microcontrollers or their development systems before.
Almost ANYTHING "doable" can be done but development time and
resulting learning curves are hard to fund at the home hobbyist level.

Au contraire!

Well, I suppose if you are scared to death of solid state electronics and
computers, then perhaps it's really hard.

Not I. Made my living, paid the bills for over four decades plus using,
designing with semiconductors. :-)

Try a dose of realistic thinking in terms of hardware, based on the
time available for hobby projects. Time. That most precious of all
personal commodities.

Programming a microcontroller is not trivial. It requires a new skill,
of outlining a sequence of events governed by decision points of
states, of (at least) being familiar with instructions/commands
recognized by the micro. While the PIC development program is
free, the ability to use the program is not automatic in download.
One MUST become familiar with "Assembler level" programming, of
including every single sequential command and decision point needed
by the program application. Having done that sort of thing primarily
for hobby purposes for over two decades, I find it both fun and
fascinating in total control of a micro's actions. My only complaint
there is that there is no standardization of instructions between
manufacturers...the "dialects" require small learning curves each time
there is a switch of micro families.

The most convenient was to apply a microprocessor or micro-
controller is to get one with the program already burned in. Saves an
enormous amount of development time...but does not do any good for
personal programming experience, only in the installation of the micro.

It's hard to beat the AADE unit (available for any conversion scheme,
direct- to triple-conversion) for applying a relatively cheap ready-built
to a frequency indicator. www.aade.com

But in this day and age a huge
fraction, bordering on most, amateur radio projects involve some sort of
microcontroller.

Yes and no. :-) That depends on the source of information for the
project. Magazines don't like to include pages of a PIC program since
those require many pages of expensive paper (which needs advertising
space sold to make it "cheap"). It isn't immediately flashy and the
program writers don't always include Comments in source code
sufficient to make the program flow clear at first reading.

Ready-built, off-the-shelf amateur radio equipment DOES use one or
more microcontrollers internally. You cannot truly qualify that "most"
hobby projects use them. :-)

This isn't some comspiracy, they make the whole project
simpler, less expensive, and more flexible.

Totally agreed. However, in fairness, use of a microcontroller in a
ham project is NOT traditional analog circuitry (that some old-timers
insist is the "only" kind of "radio"). It does NOT exemplify the mass
of mechanical structures used in 3 and 4 decade old project pictures
looked at many times in old handbooks...looked at in emotional awe
and wonderment. Microcontrollers are NOT traditional components
and have functions unrelated to physical mechanics that they often
replace. Different. Minds have to adapt to NEW ways to do things.

Granted, there is a learning curve if you've never done it before, but I
would expect that someone who wasn't totally terrified could learn enough to
make the sorts of changes he might need to an off the shelf project, build
the programming hardware, and get the project working in less
time/effort/money than simply getting a reasonable number of LED digits
wired and driven!

Of course. :-) The pep-rally over-confidence syndrome...one can do
anything with a "positive outlook"...immediately...no problems at all,
right? :-)

In a remote way, yes. Unknowns are not a "terror" to everyone. They
should be just things unknown that must be learned in order to apply
them. That takes some skull sweat at becoming familiar and such
study takes TIME. Such learning time seldom provides immediate
solutions to a present project but it has incalculable worth in being
able to apply the micro techniques to all sorts of future problems.

Why bash anyone for wanting to use LEDs instead of LCDs? There
are advantages to each kind of display. For a personal project, I
would think that it is up to the individual to determine individual
desires. Is there something "wrong" with individualism? I think not.

I'm working on inventing anti-gravity...but something's holding the
project down.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person