|
Chip,
I totally agree with you about the difficulty in handling fine-pitch SMD parts. It's a sign of the times. FYI, check out the DDS Daughterboard at www.njqrp.org. This is a DDS application board kit with on-board clock oscillator (you could run it from an external oscillator if you wish). There's also a link to a service that will solder your DDS chip to your bare board for $6 in single quantities. Joe W3JDR "ChipS" wrote in message ... "W3JDR" wrote in message ... Take a look at Analog Devices' line of DDS chips. Pretty much a one-chip (needs ucontroller to drive it) digital solution to turn your 10MHz clock into virtually any frequency below 5 MHz (in theory; below 4MHz in easy practicality). The AD9834 only consumes 20mw at 3.3 VDC. There are many other devices in the product line. Many have built-in comparators to produce square-wave output. Joe W3JDR Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. If they put the AD9835 in a PDIP and sold it for about $10.00 (the TSSOP packaged version sells for about $6, I think) , I'd buy a dozen for various projects, but in the tiny SMD package they're nothing but useless to me. I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. -- Chip KC5UES real E-mail Address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
How high can the 74HC4066 as mixer go?
I need 50Mhz tops. I still like to know how strong dual gate MOSFET is compared to say diode ring. thx |
How high can the 74HC4066 as mixer go?
I need 50Mhz tops. I still like to know how strong dual gate MOSFET is compared to say diode ring. thx |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... "W3JDR" wrote in message ... Take a look at Analog Devices' line of DDS chips. Pretty much a one-chip (needs ucontroller to drive it) digital solution to turn your 10MHz clock into virtually any frequency below 5 MHz (in theory; below 4MHz in easy practicality). The AD9834 only consumes 20mw at 3.3 VDC. There are many other devices in the product line. Many have built-in comparators to produce square-wave output. Joe W3JDR Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. If they put the AD9835 in a PDIP and sold it for about $10.00 (the TSSOP packaged version sells for about $6, I think) , I'd buy a dozen for various projects, but in the tiny SMD package they're nothing but useless to me. I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. -- Chip KC5UES real E-mail Address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. -------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... "W3JDR" wrote in message ... Take a look at Analog Devices' line of DDS chips. Pretty much a one-chip (needs ucontroller to drive it) digital solution to turn your 10MHz clock into virtually any frequency below 5 MHz (in theory; below 4MHz in easy practicality). The AD9834 only consumes 20mw at 3.3 VDC. There are many other devices in the product line. Many have built-in comparators to produce square-wave output. Joe W3JDR Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. If they put the AD9835 in a PDIP and sold it for about $10.00 (the TSSOP packaged version sells for about $6, I think) , I'd buy a dozen for various projects, but in the tiny SMD package they're nothing but useless to me. I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. -- Chip KC5UES real E-mail Address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. -------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... "W3JDR" wrote in message ... Take a look at Analog Devices' line of DDS chips. Pretty much a one-chip (needs ucontroller to drive it) digital solution to turn your 10MHz clock into virtually any frequency below 5 MHz (in theory; below 4MHz in easy practicality). The AD9834 only consumes 20mw at 3.3 VDC. There are many other devices in the product line. Many have built-in comparators to produce square-wave output. While blasts from the past, let me remind you of the CD4059 and the much faster 74HC/HCT4059. The 74-series parts guarantee operation on inputs as high as 20 MHz. "typically" as high as 50 MHz. These will divide by any binary value from 3 to 2^16 or even as high as 21327 with some gaps. The division ratio is set by 16 external pins plus some configuration pins (24-pin DIP package). The rub is that the part is very rare these days. I suppose discontinued. |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... "W3JDR" wrote in message ... Take a look at Analog Devices' line of DDS chips. Pretty much a one-chip (needs ucontroller to drive it) digital solution to turn your 10MHz clock into virtually any frequency below 5 MHz (in theory; below 4MHz in easy practicality). The AD9834 only consumes 20mw at 3.3 VDC. There are many other devices in the product line. Many have built-in comparators to produce square-wave output. While blasts from the past, let me remind you of the CD4059 and the much faster 74HC/HCT4059. The 74-series parts guarantee operation on inputs as high as 20 MHz. "typically" as high as 50 MHz. These will divide by any binary value from 3 to 2^16 or even as high as 21327 with some gaps. The division ratio is set by 16 external pins plus some configuration pins (24-pin DIP package). The rub is that the part is very rare these days. I suppose discontinued. |
Yes Tim, I agree. Unfortunately, the physics of RF favors "small" and
"compact". This is the price we pay for such high performance. It's not yet to the point where it's a 'show stopper' for experimenters, but you have to be increasingly resourceful and persistent. Many have dropped out of hombrewing at a time when the possibilities are most exciting, merely because they can't or won't adapt to the new packaging technologies and the need to learn a little about firmware programming in order to make the new generation of parts work. It's not that they "can't" learn, it's mostly that they "won't" learn. Joe W3JDR In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. -------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
Yes Tim, I agree. Unfortunately, the physics of RF favors "small" and
"compact". This is the price we pay for such high performance. It's not yet to the point where it's a 'show stopper' for experimenters, but you have to be increasingly resourceful and persistent. Many have dropped out of hombrewing at a time when the possibilities are most exciting, merely because they can't or won't adapt to the new packaging technologies and the need to learn a little about firmware programming in order to make the new generation of parts work. It's not that they "can't" learn, it's mostly that they "won't" learn. Joe W3JDR In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. -------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:39:26 GMT, "W3JDR" wrote:
FYI, I have bought two of the DDS Daughter boards from http://www.njqrp.org/ and used a standard Weller soldering iron to build it, with the exception of the SM DDS chip, installed by KitBuilders.. email Excellent results, both from KitBuilders and the finished product. For $19 for the kit and $6 for installing the chip I now have a 1Hz resolution signal source.. Thanks George ( njqrp ) and Mike ( wa6ouw ) |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:39:26 GMT, "W3JDR" wrote:
FYI, I have bought two of the DDS Daughter boards from http://www.njqrp.org/ and used a standard Weller soldering iron to build it, with the exception of the SM DDS chip, installed by KitBuilders.. email Excellent results, both from KitBuilders and the finished product. For $19 for the kit and $6 for installing the chip I now have a 1Hz resolution signal source.. Thanks George ( njqrp ) and Mike ( wa6ouw ) |
my apologies, I appear to have cut the text from W3JDR in its
totality. What I ascribed to Joe was in fact all my own work ;-( sorry Joe.. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:47:11 GMT, (Mike W) wrote: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:39:26 GMT, "W3JDR" wrote: FYI, I have bought two of the DDS Daughter boards from http://www.njqrp.org/ and used a standard Weller soldering iron to build it, with the exception of the SM DDS chip, installed by KitBuilders.. email Excellent results, both from KitBuilders and the finished product. For $19 for the kit and $6 for installing the chip I now have a 1Hz resolution signal source.. Thanks George ( njqrp ) and Mike ( wa6ouw ) |
my apologies, I appear to have cut the text from W3JDR in its
totality. What I ascribed to Joe was in fact all my own work ;-( sorry Joe.. On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:47:11 GMT, (Mike W) wrote: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:39:26 GMT, "W3JDR" wrote: FYI, I have bought two of the DDS Daughter boards from http://www.njqrp.org/ and used a standard Weller soldering iron to build it, with the exception of the SM DDS chip, installed by KitBuilders.. email Excellent results, both from KitBuilders and the finished product. For $19 for the kit and $6 for installing the chip I now have a 1Hz resolution signal source.. Thanks George ( njqrp ) and Mike ( wa6ouw ) |
Tim Wescott wrote:
In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. Re-mounting an SMD onto a DIP header guarantees minimum ground-lead lengths of about a quarter-inch, so watch out for some "interesting" changes in performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. I don't have notably good eyes or hand co-ordination, but have done plenty of SMD work using an extra pair of strong reading glasses (on top of my normal pair) and a Weller TCP iron with the finest-pointed conical tip. It's remarkable how your hands become much steadier and more controlable when viewed under magnification. The other thing is to rest your elbow or forearm on the bench, so you only have to move your wrist and hand. Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! Given those aids, anyone who doesn't have a clinical condition affecting hand co-ordination should give SMD a try. (Note: "I don't want to" is not a clinical condition :-) Other essentials: * a good work light * thin silver-loaded solder (20g maximum) * a flux pen or a supply of liquid flux * thin fluxed desolder braid (1/8in maximum) * a good pair of tweezers, that won't cross over and flip the SMD to who-knows-where * a clean workspace, because you *will* drop things With only that equipment, I've mounted AD DDS chips (and much else) on a board and they worked first time. SMD work *is* do-able... so just do it! -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Tim Wescott wrote:
In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. Re-mounting an SMD onto a DIP header guarantees minimum ground-lead lengths of about a quarter-inch, so watch out for some "interesting" changes in performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. I don't have notably good eyes or hand co-ordination, but have done plenty of SMD work using an extra pair of strong reading glasses (on top of my normal pair) and a Weller TCP iron with the finest-pointed conical tip. It's remarkable how your hands become much steadier and more controlable when viewed under magnification. The other thing is to rest your elbow or forearm on the bench, so you only have to move your wrist and hand. Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! Given those aids, anyone who doesn't have a clinical condition affecting hand co-ordination should give SMD a try. (Note: "I don't want to" is not a clinical condition :-) Other essentials: * a good work light * thin silver-loaded solder (20g maximum) * a flux pen or a supply of liquid flux * thin fluxed desolder braid (1/8in maximum) * a good pair of tweezers, that won't cross over and flip the SMD to who-knows-where * a clean workspace, because you *will* drop things With only that equipment, I've mounted AD DDS chips (and much else) on a board and they worked first time. SMD work *is* do-able... so just do it! -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Thanks to all for the replys. Thanks particularly to Joe and Mike W. for
the good info.on the daughterboard and soldering service. -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Thanks to all for the replys. Thanks particularly to Joe and Mike W. for
the good info.on the daughterboard and soldering service. -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in
: Even with an 'essential tremor' in my soldering arm I manage down to 0.7mm pitch SMD's. Indeed, magnificatrion does the job! Sam Tim Wescott wrote: In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. Re-mounting an SMD onto a DIP header guarantees minimum ground-lead lengths of about a quarter-inch, so watch out for some "interesting" changes in performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. I don't have notably good eyes or hand co-ordination, but have done plenty of SMD work using an extra pair of strong reading glasses (on top of my normal pair) and a Weller TCP iron with the finest-pointed conical tip. It's remarkable how your hands become much steadier and more controlable when viewed under magnification. The other thing is to rest your elbow or forearm on the bench, so you only have to move your wrist and hand. Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! Given those aids, anyone who doesn't have a clinical condition affecting hand co-ordination should give SMD a try. (Note: "I don't want to" is not a clinical condition :-) Other essentials: * a good work light * thin silver-loaded solder (20g maximum) * a flux pen or a supply of liquid flux * thin fluxed desolder braid (1/8in maximum) * a good pair of tweezers, that won't cross over and flip the SMD to who-knows-where * a clean workspace, because you *will* drop things With only that equipment, I've mounted AD DDS chips (and much else) on a board and they worked first time. SMD work *is* do-able... so just do it! |
"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in
: Even with an 'essential tremor' in my soldering arm I manage down to 0.7mm pitch SMD's. Indeed, magnificatrion does the job! Sam Tim Wescott wrote: In the case of RF devices like DDS's and high-performance microprocessors (you think 1GHz isn't RF?) the surface mount package significantly enhances performance. Re-mounting an SMD onto a DIP header guarantees minimum ground-lead lengths of about a quarter-inch, so watch out for some "interesting" changes in performance. I haven't found them to be that bad to work with; you just need good eyes and a steady hand. I don't have notably good eyes or hand co-ordination, but have done plenty of SMD work using an extra pair of strong reading glasses (on top of my normal pair) and a Weller TCP iron with the finest-pointed conical tip. It's remarkable how your hands become much steadier and more controlable when viewed under magnification. The other thing is to rest your elbow or forearm on the bench, so you only have to move your wrist and hand. Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! Given those aids, anyone who doesn't have a clinical condition affecting hand co-ordination should give SMD a try. (Note: "I don't want to" is not a clinical condition :-) Other essentials: * a good work light * thin silver-loaded solder (20g maximum) * a flux pen or a supply of liquid flux * thin fluxed desolder braid (1/8in maximum) * a good pair of tweezers, that won't cross over and flip the SMD to who-knows-where * a clean workspace, because you *will* drop things With only that equipment, I've mounted AD DDS chips (and much else) on a board and they worked first time. SMD work *is* do-able... so just do it! |
I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe
about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. =================================== The above proves that a basic bottleneck in humans is the tendency to resist change. Fortunately there are also many (humans) who see change as a challenge. I prefer to belong to the latter category and will shortly 'get into SMD' by building a DDS VFO (ref KG6CYN) ,be it that I am currently doing some 'home training' by messing about with SMD components from discarded consumer electronics. After all homebrewing electronics is and remains a great hobby. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe
about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. =================================== The above proves that a basic bottleneck in humans is the tendency to resist change. Fortunately there are also many (humans) who see change as a challenge. I prefer to belong to the latter category and will shortly 'get into SMD' by building a DDS VFO (ref KG6CYN) ,be it that I am currently doing some 'home training' by messing about with SMD components from discarded consumer electronics. After all homebrewing electronics is and remains a great hobby. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... Thanks to all for the replys. Thanks particularly to Joe and Mike W. for the good info.on the daughterboard and soldering service. Read the latest QEX. The frequency synthesizer article contains hints on soldering 0.6 mm spaced surface mount leads. |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... Thanks to all for the replys. Thanks particularly to Joe and Mike W. for the good info.on the daughterboard and soldering service. Read the latest QEX. The frequency synthesizer article contains hints on soldering 0.6 mm spaced surface mount leads. |
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:51:15 +0000, "Ian White, G3SEK"
wrote: [snip] |Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! No kidding! During the development of the Phoenix Missile Solid State Transmitter, which used 16 IMPATT diodes in a cavity power combiner, we were serializing every diode. The state of the art in diode manufacturing was such that getting 16 matched devices was almost impossible, so we tested hundreds and then picked those that most closely matched. These were a microwave pill package with a 3-48 screw and a flange about 2mm in diameter. We scribed about a 10 digit serial number right into the gold on the flange. I was good for about 30 diodes each morning until the coffee and shakes set it. |
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:51:15 +0000, "Ian White, G3SEK"
wrote: [snip] |Oh yes, and lay off the coffee and Coke for several hours beforehand! No kidding! During the development of the Phoenix Missile Solid State Transmitter, which used 16 IMPATT diodes in a cavity power combiner, we were serializing every diode. The state of the art in diode manufacturing was such that getting 16 matched devices was almost impossible, so we tested hundreds and then picked those that most closely matched. These were a microwave pill package with a 3-48 screw and a flange about 2mm in diameter. We scribed about a 10 digit serial number right into the gold on the flange. I was good for about 30 diodes each morning until the coffee and shakes set it. |
SWbeginner wrote in message ... How high can the 74HC4066 as mixer go? I need 50Mhz tops. I still like to know how strong dual gate MOSFET is compared to say diode ring. thx ? The HC4066 is OK(ish) to about 10megs. A dual gate fet (eg 40673) -with care- should be able give out roughly the same, or a little more voltage than what is coming in. With a diode ring expect to pick up (say) only 40mV of an incoming 100mV. [Easiest / most reliable]: use a "Bus Switch" such as the FST3125, toggled by 74AC type logic; handle the A.C. signals by couple of video op-amps). ('Output' signal looks like what you see in a text book). regards john |
SWbeginner wrote in message ... How high can the 74HC4066 as mixer go? I need 50Mhz tops. I still like to know how strong dual gate MOSFET is compared to say diode ring. thx ? The HC4066 is OK(ish) to about 10megs. A dual gate fet (eg 40673) -with care- should be able give out roughly the same, or a little more voltage than what is coming in. With a diode ring expect to pick up (say) only 40mV of an incoming 100mV. [Easiest / most reliable]: use a "Bus Switch" such as the FST3125, toggled by 74AC type logic; handle the A.C. signals by couple of video op-amps). ('Output' signal looks like what you see in a text book). regards john |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. That would be cost-prohibitive ... to tool up to make the parts in obsolete packages that the production line is no longer using would cost a fortune. If they put the AD9835 in a PDIP and sold it for about $10.00 (the TSSOP packaged version sells for about $6, I think) , I'd buy a dozen for various projects, but in the tiny SMD package they're nothing but useless to me. I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. What "angst"??? SMD parts are not "hard to work with" - they just require that you learn and use different techniques ... the ARRL has some very good material on their website on using SMD parts. 73, Carl - wk3c |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. That would be cost-prohibitive ... to tool up to make the parts in obsolete packages that the production line is no longer using would cost a fortune. If they put the AD9835 in a PDIP and sold it for about $10.00 (the TSSOP packaged version sells for about $6, I think) , I'd buy a dozen for various projects, but in the tiny SMD package they're nothing but useless to me. I'm new to the newsgroup and am sure that this is not the first gripe about SMD's, but I refuse to use them - not because I can't (at least not yet), but because I don't want to endure the angst. What "angst"??? SMD parts are not "hard to work with" - they just require that you learn and use different techniques ... the ARRL has some very good material on their website on using SMD parts. 73, Carl - wk3c |
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. That would be cost-prohibitive ... to tool up to make the parts in obsolete packages that the production line is no longer using would cost a fortune. Absolutely right, Carl - it ain't gonna happen. A very good article in 'Communications Quarterly' (RIP) explained how the IC samples system works. Basically the economics of complex ICs are the same as for developing a new drug - most of the selling price is aimed at recovering the large upfront development costs. By comparison, once the line is set up and rolling, the *production* cost of the actual parts (or pills) is often quite minimal. It's a very good investment to give away samples as bait, if they're going to help reel in orders for large quantities. Analog Devices (and also Maxim) are very clear that samples supplied to amateurs are much less likely to bring in orders than those supplied to commercial developers... yet they do it anyway, for the public good, and because it doesn't cost them much. And we're very grateful for it. But that's as far as their charity extends. As Carl says, nobody is ever going to provide free samples of anything for which there's no commercial market. Frankly, it's also as far as charity to amateurs and other experimenters *should* extend. They are not in business to featherbed us. Fortunately, most amateurs have a "can do" attitude towards SMD. This just arrived on another mailing list: I broke my neck a few years ago and due to nerve damage my hands don't work as well as they did but I was able to do the mod [which involved SMD work on a $2000 transceiver] without much trouble. I did it before the rig had even been on the air, brand new out of the box, scary, yes but worth it. I'm proud to be in the same ham community as that person. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
Joe, I'd gladly use the Analog Devices DDS chips if they offered them in something other than a SadoMasochistic Device (SMD) package. It's a darn shame they can't make a limited run (say 10k) of some of these chips in a PDIP package for hams and other r.f. experimenters. That would be cost-prohibitive ... to tool up to make the parts in obsolete packages that the production line is no longer using would cost a fortune. Absolutely right, Carl - it ain't gonna happen. A very good article in 'Communications Quarterly' (RIP) explained how the IC samples system works. Basically the economics of complex ICs are the same as for developing a new drug - most of the selling price is aimed at recovering the large upfront development costs. By comparison, once the line is set up and rolling, the *production* cost of the actual parts (or pills) is often quite minimal. It's a very good investment to give away samples as bait, if they're going to help reel in orders for large quantities. Analog Devices (and also Maxim) are very clear that samples supplied to amateurs are much less likely to bring in orders than those supplied to commercial developers... yet they do it anyway, for the public good, and because it doesn't cost them much. And we're very grateful for it. But that's as far as their charity extends. As Carl says, nobody is ever going to provide free samples of anything for which there's no commercial market. Frankly, it's also as far as charity to amateurs and other experimenters *should* extend. They are not in business to featherbed us. Fortunately, most amateurs have a "can do" attitude towards SMD. This just arrived on another mailing list: I broke my neck a few years ago and due to nerve damage my hands don't work as well as they did but I was able to do the mod [which involved SMD work on a $2000 transceiver] without much trouble. I did it before the rig had even been on the air, brand new out of the box, scary, yes but worth it. I'm proud to be in the same ham community as that person. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek |
"R J Carpenter" wrote in message ... Read the latest QEX. The frequency synthesizer article contains hints on soldering 0.6 mm spaced surface mount leads. Thanks R J, I've already read it. Note the authors mention of the eyesight and nerve shattering problem of manually working with small SMD's. This is a hobby to me; I have done my share of SMD soldering, and will do no more. If others enjoy it, that's wonderful. Now where did I put that ARC-5 I got to make a VFO for my Centeral Electronics 10-B? :-) 73, -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
"R J Carpenter" wrote in message ... Read the latest QEX. The frequency synthesizer article contains hints on soldering 0.6 mm spaced surface mount leads. Thanks R J, I've already read it. Note the authors mention of the eyesight and nerve shattering problem of manually working with small SMD's. This is a hobby to me; I have done my share of SMD soldering, and will do no more. If others enjoy it, that's wonderful. Now where did I put that ARC-5 I got to make a VFO for my Centeral Electronics 10-B? :-) 73, -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Joe,
You seem to be under the impression that SMD's are "new". I obtained my first "flat packs" in 1968. And they were surplus from some type of computer, at that time. Sylvania made them - SUHL was the logic family of these gates and flip-flops; I still have the two boards (less two or three ic's I pulled off to play with) and the data sheets. The data sheets indicate they were made in 1965 and 66. They couldn't sell the package to anyone but military and commercial customers (neither of which ever wants their boards to be "hackable") then and the DIP became the standard for experimenters. Unfortunately, as you alluded to earlier in this thread, there is not much of an electronic tinkerer's market anymore. Now that more commercial apps. exist, the manufacters can force what few tinkerers there are to accept the more economical to produce SMD packages. I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Joe,
You seem to be under the impression that SMD's are "new". I obtained my first "flat packs" in 1968. And they were surplus from some type of computer, at that time. Sylvania made them - SUHL was the logic family of these gates and flip-flops; I still have the two boards (less two or three ic's I pulled off to play with) and the data sheets. The data sheets indicate they were made in 1965 and 66. They couldn't sell the package to anyone but military and commercial customers (neither of which ever wants their boards to be "hackable") then and the DIP became the standard for experimenters. Unfortunately, as you alluded to earlier in this thread, there is not much of an electronic tinkerer's market anymore. Now that more commercial apps. exist, the manufacters can force what few tinkerers there are to accept the more economical to produce SMD packages. I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. -- Chip KC5UES real e-mail address: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; A loss - for you *and* for those who might benefit from the fruits of your experimentation. 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); I don't understand the "pain" aspect that folks keep citing ... I'm 53, "my arms are too short," and I've had corneal surgery that introduced some very irregular astigmatism, but I can still handle SMDs (at least down to 0403). Again, it's a matter of learning and using the proper techniques. You need the following: One of those adjustable lamps with the circular flourescent lamp and a magnifier. An eye loupe (10x) works well for me (for really close inspection). A couple of small-tiped temperature-controlled soldering irons. Some flux. Some solder wick. Some fine-tipped tweezers (almost needle pointed). Fine guage solder (for use with the iron). Solder paste is best, though if you're going to do much SMD work ... I prefer the "no-clean" type with water soluble flux. And, the best option, which I have, is a hot air reflow/rework station (I bought one brand new on eBay for $315 ... I also bought a "vacuum pen" which is the easiest way to pick up SMD parts and place them.) Note that the hot air station and vacuum pen are NOT necessary to make SMD work painless - they are just niceties that I have chosen to invest in to make the work even faster and easier. or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). You start kludging all sorts of adaptor boards into the brew and you extend lead lengths, making it harder to get decent grounding and introducing all sorts of wierd impedance "bumps" - you can get away with it on audio and things that run at really low clock rates, but you're asking for trouble with RF or high-speed logic. May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. Ah!!! Something we completely agree on :-) 73, Carl - wk3c |
"ChipS" wrote in message ... I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; A loss - for you *and* for those who might benefit from the fruits of your experimentation. 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); I don't understand the "pain" aspect that folks keep citing ... I'm 53, "my arms are too short," and I've had corneal surgery that introduced some very irregular astigmatism, but I can still handle SMDs (at least down to 0403). Again, it's a matter of learning and using the proper techniques. You need the following: One of those adjustable lamps with the circular flourescent lamp and a magnifier. An eye loupe (10x) works well for me (for really close inspection). A couple of small-tiped temperature-controlled soldering irons. Some flux. Some solder wick. Some fine-tipped tweezers (almost needle pointed). Fine guage solder (for use with the iron). Solder paste is best, though if you're going to do much SMD work ... I prefer the "no-clean" type with water soluble flux. And, the best option, which I have, is a hot air reflow/rework station (I bought one brand new on eBay for $315 ... I also bought a "vacuum pen" which is the easiest way to pick up SMD parts and place them.) Note that the hot air station and vacuum pen are NOT necessary to make SMD work painless - they are just niceties that I have chosen to invest in to make the work even faster and easier. or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). You start kludging all sorts of adaptor boards into the brew and you extend lead lengths, making it harder to get decent grounding and introducing all sorts of wierd impedance "bumps" - you can get away with it on audio and things that run at really low clock rates, but you're asking for trouble with RF or high-speed logic. May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. Ah!!! Something we completely agree on :-) 73, Carl - wk3c |
In article , "ChipS"
writes: Joe, You seem to be under the impression that SMD's are "new". I obtained my first "flat packs" in 1968. And they were surplus from some type of computer, at that time. Sylvania made them - SUHL was the logic family of these gates and flip-flops; I still have the two boards (less two or three ic's I pulled off to play with) and the data sheets. The data sheets indicate they were made in 1965 and 66. Texas Instruments beat Sylvania by several years with DTL. :-) I held my first flat pack (from TI), a single DTL flip-flop some time in 1960. Couldn't believe how TI had managed to cram all that circuitry in there! :-) TI beat most of the competition with its introduction of TTL to replace DTL. Their 7400 and 5400 part numbers have gone into legacy mode for functional equivalents made by others since. Those numbers are so common that some CMOS ICs have the functional-equivalent numbers in their whole part number. :-) They couldn't sell the package to anyone but military and commercial customers (neither of which ever wants their boards to be "hackable") then and the DIP became the standard for experimenters. The original flat packs were excellent for stacking one on top of the other in microwelded assemblies for spacecraft. JPL and one maker of diallyl phthalate plastic holders came up with a kind of "super DIP" that took the flat packs and etched-copper-foil-on-kapton-film as the interconnect wiring. The enemy of the flat packs and first ICs was CO$T. TI and every- one else had to recoup their ramp-up and development costs and almost shot themselves doing that. The single DTL flip-flop I held in 1960 cost $24 each! It was cheaper for the mainframe computer makers to use discrete bipolar circuits than go to DTL and the flat packs or even to TTL in flat packs. The big break was the convenience of the dual-inline package and standardization on the early 0.1 inch layout grid. It's difficult to hack out welded-in-place flat packs. Many were so mounted on flat PCBs back before wave-soldering was practical. A big, big break for hobbyists was RTL from Fairchild. In little round epoxy bipolar-size packages, those were affordable across the shelf. My first frequency counter was built from Resistor-Transistor-Logic back in 1968-1969. Cost was prohibitive then to go for TTL in the new DIPs. Problem was that TTL out-performed RTL in speed and ability to progress from SSI to MSI even in the old, original TTL medium-speed family. Once 54H and 74H appeared, RTL was a goner. Mainframe and minicomputer designs standardized on TTL (to TI's delight, no doubt) and the other industrial applications picked up on that. TTL prices dropped. Even more when the 74LS family appeared with PDIP. 74LS became the family of choice for the first microcomputers' "glue" holding them together circuit-wise. Unfortunately, as you alluded to earlier in this thread, there is not much of an electronic tinkerer's market anymore. I disagree. All kinds of electronic tinkerer's suppliers in certain chain stores (Fry's Electronics in the southwest US has one whole aisle for packaged ICs) and many small mail-order dealers as well as the biggies such as Digi-Key, Mouser, and Newark. Legacy ICs, especially logic, is down to well under $1 per package in singles. Now that more commercial apps. exist, the manufacters can force what few tinkerers there are to accept the more economical to produce SMD packages. Disagree again. SMT is not necessarily "more economical to produce" compared to DIP. The process is about the same. The driving force is FINISHED ELECTRONIC SYSTEM SIZE and the consumer electronics MARKETPLACE. Industry estimates put cellular telephones (little two-way 1 GHz radios) at about 3 Billion worldwide. In the USA alone in 2002, the U.S. Bureau of Census stated that there were about 100 Million cell phone subscribers, or roughly one out of three citizens with those tiny "HTs". Cell phones are complex things and are appearing with more and more auxilliary features...the only way to stay in the cell phone market is to make them small and with tiny parts to cram everything in there. I just replaced the thermostat in my house with a name-brand all- electronic unit having a little LCD indicator (very easy to read, momentary back light) and electronic thermal sensor, battery powered so it won't lose its settings plus several other perqs not possible with the 40-year-old bimetallic strip model. Neat little SMT PCB, no crowding of anything. It is less than half the size of the old one yet has more features. The MARKET drives certain things, especially so in consumer electronics. I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. I don't. Looking back over more than a half century of electronics hobby activity the options are FAR more NOW than back then. It's been growing and branching out all that time. The "cold hard facts" for SOME "experimenters" is that they can't adapt to using semi-discrete ICs in readily-available DIPs but want an all-purpose IC to do the DDS functional dirty work. The heart of a DDS is basically a curious accumulator that must work in a flexible way (several variations on the theme)...that is different than the PLL counter which is just a preset-by-external-control to a fixed countdown. Both share a phase-frequency "detector" (logic circuit) which can be one of two general kinds. The DDS principle is vastly different because of that flexible accumulator and hard to grasp for most folks (took me a long while to get comfortable with it). It takes more wiring in discrete logic than a PLL but both the DDS and PLL can be done that way. "Experimenters" don't always need ultra- small-sized sub-systems for frequency control. Analog Devices (and some others) have collapsed most of the frequency control sub-system into a single IC. We should ignore the package size and be grateful that one IC saves a lot of discrete packages and wiring. ADI's manufacturing choices are basically market-driven, not "experimenter" driven. There's no guarantee that every ADI IC model will survive in the near future...just like all those other "legacy" ICs, mostly analog, of two and three decades ago that aren't made now. Of about 8 variations of a MOS PLL IC that Motorola made a decade ago (MC145nnn family), only one survives today, the MC145151. Motorola couldn't sustain the cost of continuing to produce something that didn't sell. [Motorola semi split also, but that's another story] 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; "Cutting edge technology" doesn't require smallness. FUNCTION is the cutting edge. A 5" x 8" PCB DDS made with ordinary logic ICs has the same function as a 1" x 1" area on a PCB done with 1 IC. 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); An HF-range frequency control sub-system can be made with legacy digitial logic devices off-the-shelf in DIPs. If anyone insists on SMT then they have to get that silly little millimeter soldering iron tip and learn how solder in a small way...or, be inventive like a robotic hobbyist who converted an ordinary toaster-oven into a reflow oven for soldering 60-contact ICs with toothpick-applied solder paste. Whichever way the construction is done, the prime driver is still FUNCTION. or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). "Video speed" D-to-A converters are available. Off the shelf. There's at least three in every HDTV receiver today. :-) May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. Heartily AGREE on that! Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , "ChipS"
writes: Joe, You seem to be under the impression that SMD's are "new". I obtained my first "flat packs" in 1968. And they were surplus from some type of computer, at that time. Sylvania made them - SUHL was the logic family of these gates and flip-flops; I still have the two boards (less two or three ic's I pulled off to play with) and the data sheets. The data sheets indicate they were made in 1965 and 66. Texas Instruments beat Sylvania by several years with DTL. :-) I held my first flat pack (from TI), a single DTL flip-flop some time in 1960. Couldn't believe how TI had managed to cram all that circuitry in there! :-) TI beat most of the competition with its introduction of TTL to replace DTL. Their 7400 and 5400 part numbers have gone into legacy mode for functional equivalents made by others since. Those numbers are so common that some CMOS ICs have the functional-equivalent numbers in their whole part number. :-) They couldn't sell the package to anyone but military and commercial customers (neither of which ever wants their boards to be "hackable") then and the DIP became the standard for experimenters. The original flat packs were excellent for stacking one on top of the other in microwelded assemblies for spacecraft. JPL and one maker of diallyl phthalate plastic holders came up with a kind of "super DIP" that took the flat packs and etched-copper-foil-on-kapton-film as the interconnect wiring. The enemy of the flat packs and first ICs was CO$T. TI and every- one else had to recoup their ramp-up and development costs and almost shot themselves doing that. The single DTL flip-flop I held in 1960 cost $24 each! It was cheaper for the mainframe computer makers to use discrete bipolar circuits than go to DTL and the flat packs or even to TTL in flat packs. The big break was the convenience of the dual-inline package and standardization on the early 0.1 inch layout grid. It's difficult to hack out welded-in-place flat packs. Many were so mounted on flat PCBs back before wave-soldering was practical. A big, big break for hobbyists was RTL from Fairchild. In little round epoxy bipolar-size packages, those were affordable across the shelf. My first frequency counter was built from Resistor-Transistor-Logic back in 1968-1969. Cost was prohibitive then to go for TTL in the new DIPs. Problem was that TTL out-performed RTL in speed and ability to progress from SSI to MSI even in the old, original TTL medium-speed family. Once 54H and 74H appeared, RTL was a goner. Mainframe and minicomputer designs standardized on TTL (to TI's delight, no doubt) and the other industrial applications picked up on that. TTL prices dropped. Even more when the 74LS family appeared with PDIP. 74LS became the family of choice for the first microcomputers' "glue" holding them together circuit-wise. Unfortunately, as you alluded to earlier in this thread, there is not much of an electronic tinkerer's market anymore. I disagree. All kinds of electronic tinkerer's suppliers in certain chain stores (Fry's Electronics in the southwest US has one whole aisle for packaged ICs) and many small mail-order dealers as well as the biggies such as Digi-Key, Mouser, and Newark. Legacy ICs, especially logic, is down to well under $1 per package in singles. Now that more commercial apps. exist, the manufacters can force what few tinkerers there are to accept the more economical to produce SMD packages. Disagree again. SMT is not necessarily "more economical to produce" compared to DIP. The process is about the same. The driving force is FINISHED ELECTRONIC SYSTEM SIZE and the consumer electronics MARKETPLACE. Industry estimates put cellular telephones (little two-way 1 GHz radios) at about 3 Billion worldwide. In the USA alone in 2002, the U.S. Bureau of Census stated that there were about 100 Million cell phone subscribers, or roughly one out of three citizens with those tiny "HTs". Cell phones are complex things and are appearing with more and more auxilliary features...the only way to stay in the cell phone market is to make them small and with tiny parts to cram everything in there. I just replaced the thermostat in my house with a name-brand all- electronic unit having a little LCD indicator (very easy to read, momentary back light) and electronic thermal sensor, battery powered so it won't lose its settings plus several other perqs not possible with the 40-year-old bimetallic strip model. Neat little SMT PCB, no crowding of anything. It is less than half the size of the old one yet has more features. The MARKET drives certain things, especially so in consumer electronics. I readily admit that there are only a few options for experimenters when the cold hard facts are faced. I don't. Looking back over more than a half century of electronics hobby activity the options are FAR more NOW than back then. It's been growing and branching out all that time. The "cold hard facts" for SOME "experimenters" is that they can't adapt to using semi-discrete ICs in readily-available DIPs but want an all-purpose IC to do the DDS functional dirty work. The heart of a DDS is basically a curious accumulator that must work in a flexible way (several variations on the theme)...that is different than the PLL counter which is just a preset-by-external-control to a fixed countdown. Both share a phase-frequency "detector" (logic circuit) which can be one of two general kinds. The DDS principle is vastly different because of that flexible accumulator and hard to grasp for most folks (took me a long while to get comfortable with it). It takes more wiring in discrete logic than a PLL but both the DDS and PLL can be done that way. "Experimenters" don't always need ultra- small-sized sub-systems for frequency control. Analog Devices (and some others) have collapsed most of the frequency control sub-system into a single IC. We should ignore the package size and be grateful that one IC saves a lot of discrete packages and wiring. ADI's manufacturing choices are basically market-driven, not "experimenter" driven. There's no guarantee that every ADI IC model will survive in the near future...just like all those other "legacy" ICs, mostly analog, of two and three decades ago that aren't made now. Of about 8 variations of a MOS PLL IC that Motorola made a decade ago (MC145nnn family), only one survives today, the MC145151. Motorola couldn't sustain the cost of continuing to produce something that didn't sell. [Motorola semi split also, but that's another story] 1) gripe and cease building at the cutting edge of ic technology as I have done; "Cutting edge technology" doesn't require smallness. FUNCTION is the cutting edge. A 5" x 8" PCB DDS made with ordinary logic ICs has the same function as a 1" x 1" area on a PCB done with 1 IC. 2) buckle down and force oneself to say "SMD soldering is good for me- I deserve it."(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ); An HF-range frequency control sub-system can be made with legacy digitial logic devices off-the-shelf in DIPs. If anyone insists on SMT then they have to get that silly little millimeter soldering iron tip and learn how solder in a small way...or, be inventive like a robotic hobbyist who converted an ordinary toaster-oven into a reflow oven for soldering 60-contact ICs with toothpick-applied solder paste. Whichever way the construction is done, the prime driver is still FUNCTION. or 3) look for other options - Dave, Mike W, and you have made some good, pertinent comments about daughterboards and adapters (a "Manhattan Style" adapter with the ic soldered on would be just as useable as a DIP adapter - if someone wants to take up Dave's challange.); just to prove that I'm not the old stuck in my ways fart that some probably envision me as, I am investigating DDS out a PCI or AGP slot of a pc (too bad video speed d/a converters are unobtainable.) ;-). "Video speed" D-to-A converters are available. Off the shelf. There's at least three in every HDTV receiver today. :-) May the hobby continue to grow and be fun for all who find it. Heartily AGREE on that! Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , Carl R. Stevenson
writes An eye loupe (10x) works well for me (for really close inspection). I used to have a magnifier that fitted over my glasses but stood forward by 5 cm or so, this enabled focussing with magnification at a greater distance in a narrow field , Ive lost it and have hand made another do others use these. -- ddwyer |
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