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On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:12:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: [snip] That does not mean that there are no individual cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid. Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the solar installation almost for free, because of government grants, so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget, and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power. Arizona is presently *increasing* their tax credits for solar. But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the people who can connect to the grid. The number of people who are grid connected and are economically ahead with solar is exceedingly small. Even Solar Guppy, who clearly has expertise in this area, posts a 16+ year payback period - and that's without considering mortgage, degradation, maintenance etc. over time. If you get it 4 free, payback starts immediatly. Problem is that in teh old electricity meters the meter would run backards, and you got a lot for a kWh into the grid. Now the power companies fixed that by using electronic meters that will not run backwars.. clever!, but you can become a 'certified electricity supplier' or something (I am not, just what I did read), for 250 Euro or so a year, and then ge t7 Eurocent for a kWh so no good deal, only costs money. [snip] Sourcing INTO the power grid is also supported in Arizona. Apparently there are a few customers here who produce more than their own consumption and get PAID every month. (Not difficult at all if you own at least an acre of property.) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:12:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: [snip] That does not mean that there are no individual cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid. Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the solar installation almost for free, because of government grants, so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget, and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power. Arizona is presently *increasing* their tax credits for solar. But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the people who can connect to the grid. The number of people who are grid connected and are economically ahead with solar is exceedingly small. Even Solar Guppy, who clearly has expertise in this area, posts a 16+ year payback period - and that's without considering mortgage, degradation, maintenance etc. over time. If you get it 4 free, payback starts immediatly. Problem is that in teh old electricity meters the meter would run backards, and you got a lot for a kWh into the grid. Now the power companies fixed that by using electronic meters that will not run backwars.. clever!, but you can become a 'certified electricity supplier' or something (I am not, just what I did read), for 250 Euro or so a year, and then ge t7 Eurocent for a kWh so no good deal, only costs money. [snip] Sourcing INTO the power grid is also supported in Arizona. Apparently there are a few customers here who produce more than their own consumption and get PAID every month. (Not difficult at all if you own at least an acre of property.) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
You've asked for a module that puts out 6-9 volts @ 100 mA. A more
accurate description of a solar panel would be that it puts out 100 mA at 6-9 volts. Also the currewnt outputdepends somewhat on the latitude you're at. You won't get all that current at the arctic circle. ============================= As a rule of thumb , a starting angle (from horizontal) for setting up a solar panel is Degrees Latitude plus 10 degrees. My QTH is at 57 degrees north ,so I have initially set up the 2 panels (each fitted at ground level on an adjustable hinged wooden frame) at approx 67 degrees. , pointing due south ,which is about optimal (not having a tracking system) I use 2 make: Unisolar ,64Wp panels which have a non or low reflecting surface made of a polymer ( no glass). Rated output per panel 3.88 Amperes at 16.5 volts ; short circuit current 6.3 Amperes. Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Purpose : Amateur Radio station with peripherals including 12 V halogen bulbs desk lighting. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
You've asked for a module that puts out 6-9 volts @ 100 mA. A more
accurate description of a solar panel would be that it puts out 100 mA at 6-9 volts. Also the currewnt outputdepends somewhat on the latitude you're at. You won't get all that current at the arctic circle. ============================= As a rule of thumb , a starting angle (from horizontal) for setting up a solar panel is Degrees Latitude plus 10 degrees. My QTH is at 57 degrees north ,so I have initially set up the 2 panels (each fitted at ground level on an adjustable hinged wooden frame) at approx 67 degrees. , pointing due south ,which is about optimal (not having a tracking system) I use 2 make: Unisolar ,64Wp panels which have a non or low reflecting surface made of a polymer ( no glass). Rated output per panel 3.88 Amperes at 16.5 volts ; short circuit current 6.3 Amperes. Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Purpose : Amateur Radio station with peripherals including 12 V halogen bulbs desk lighting. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP |
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. |
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. |
"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message ... Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote: "Anthony Matonak" wrote in message You could chose to eliminate chicken as well as beef, eggs and dairy. I'm no expert in either nutrition or food prices but I think you could [snip] The price penalty becomes even greater when you purchase food products that eliminate meat such as silk and soy bean and tofu meat substitutes. It's a matter of supply and demand; most people don't buy these things, so the prices are higher. The price penalty is only on items that try to replace or substitute for meat (and often failing miserably). If you simply purchase items such as beans, rice, grains, nuts and so forth, as they exist in nature (or at least, supermarket shelves) then their prices become very low. Last I checked, nuts were more expensive than some meats. And most people haven't got a clue as to how to eat a meat-free diet and get proper nutrition. That's the problem. [snip] Anthony |
"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message ... Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote: "Anthony Matonak" wrote in message You could chose to eliminate chicken as well as beef, eggs and dairy. I'm no expert in either nutrition or food prices but I think you could [snip] The price penalty becomes even greater when you purchase food products that eliminate meat such as silk and soy bean and tofu meat substitutes. It's a matter of supply and demand; most people don't buy these things, so the prices are higher. The price penalty is only on items that try to replace or substitute for meat (and often failing miserably). If you simply purchase items such as beans, rice, grains, nuts and so forth, as they exist in nature (or at least, supermarket shelves) then their prices become very low. Last I checked, nuts were more expensive than some meats. And most people haven't got a clue as to how to eat a meat-free diet and get proper nutrition. That's the problem. [snip] Anthony |
"Solar Guppy" wrote in message ... So now you saying solar thermal has no pay back ? ... please ... solar thermal is about 5x better than solar PV in payback times. The cost is about 1700.00 (US) for a system that will replace about 90% of domestic hot-water needs , and in my last house , lowered my electric usage by about 45 dollars a month. There are many web-references to the 3-4 year break even ... instead of picking on my grammar , spend some time to get your facts right and use Google for references instead of your obvious fact-less opinions of solar thermal and solar electric. "Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote in message ... SNIP My apt. owner put solar water heater panels on the roof more than ten years ago, and I don't think they've been cost effective. The neighborhood vandals threw rocks at one and broke it, so they had to pur chicken wire over the panels to prevent damage. The cats used the foam pipe insulation to sharpen their claws, so it's gone for about two feet up from the roof. The controller and storage tanks are not working as they should, so I would guess that the system needs repair. All in all, even with the rebates, it wasn't as good as it was made out to be. I think that the figures that you gave might be optimum, but not realistic, when other things are considered. Like dirt and snow can seriously reduce the solar output. So some maintenance has to be done. And there are other factors, intangibles, that have to be considered, such as breakdown on the electronics. When that happens, the owner may have to make a tough decision to spend a lot of money to repair, or just leave it unrepaired and disconnect it. Don't say that's not going to happen! Most of the solar heater panels I've seen are not working after a few years. It's a just matter of entropy. Things just get ignored and turn to dust, and no one bothers with them anymore. BTW, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. [snip] Facts are facts. I simply stated a fact. First off, that the solar water heater that I have experience with, and that's a *fact*. And secondly, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. Fact. |
"Solar Guppy" wrote in message ... So now you saying solar thermal has no pay back ? ... please ... solar thermal is about 5x better than solar PV in payback times. The cost is about 1700.00 (US) for a system that will replace about 90% of domestic hot-water needs , and in my last house , lowered my electric usage by about 45 dollars a month. There are many web-references to the 3-4 year break even ... instead of picking on my grammar , spend some time to get your facts right and use Google for references instead of your obvious fact-less opinions of solar thermal and solar electric. "Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote in message ... SNIP My apt. owner put solar water heater panels on the roof more than ten years ago, and I don't think they've been cost effective. The neighborhood vandals threw rocks at one and broke it, so they had to pur chicken wire over the panels to prevent damage. The cats used the foam pipe insulation to sharpen their claws, so it's gone for about two feet up from the roof. The controller and storage tanks are not working as they should, so I would guess that the system needs repair. All in all, even with the rebates, it wasn't as good as it was made out to be. I think that the figures that you gave might be optimum, but not realistic, when other things are considered. Like dirt and snow can seriously reduce the solar output. So some maintenance has to be done. And there are other factors, intangibles, that have to be considered, such as breakdown on the electronics. When that happens, the owner may have to make a tough decision to spend a lot of money to repair, or just leave it unrepaired and disconnect it. Don't say that's not going to happen! Most of the solar heater panels I've seen are not working after a few years. It's a just matter of entropy. Things just get ignored and turn to dust, and no one bothers with them anymore. BTW, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. [snip] Facts are facts. I simply stated a fact. First off, that the solar water heater that I have experience with, and that's a *fact*. And secondly, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. Fact. |
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... [snip] That does not mean that there are no individual cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid. Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the solar installation almost for free, because of government grants, so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget, and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power. Well, the question is, did the gov't get what it wanted, with the subsidies that it did hand out? In other words, did it hand out 100 million Quatloos worth of subsidies, and get back _more_ than 100 million in benefits, such as reduction in the amount of non-renewable energy usage, etc. If so, then it seems to me that the program served its purpose and should be continued, and even broadened. But then politics.. But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the people who can connect to the grid. The number of [snip] Unfortunatly there is not a lot of sun here... Yes, that's another factor that should be considered in the overall plan. less sun, less energy from your investment! Longer payback. [snip] But for most people who run the numbers, solar is clearly a no win situation. Well, if it was a win situation, then more of them would be installed. I guess the proof of this statement is that few of them are installed in urban areas, where most people live. [snip] JP |
"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... [snip] That does not mean that there are no individual cases today where solar is attractive economically, nor does it encompass those who can't connect to the grid. Here in teh Netherlands where i am, you could get the solar installation almost for free, because of government grants, so many people did it that the gov ran out of the allocated budget, and is now drastically reducing subsidizing solar power. Well, the question is, did the gov't get what it wanted, with the subsidies that it did hand out? In other words, did it hand out 100 million Quatloos worth of subsidies, and get back _more_ than 100 million in benefits, such as reduction in the amount of non-renewable energy usage, etc. If so, then it seems to me that the program served its purpose and should be continued, and even broadened. But then politics.. But it's a non-starter for better than 99 percent of the people who can connect to the grid. The number of [snip] Unfortunatly there is not a lot of sun here... Yes, that's another factor that should be considered in the overall plan. less sun, less energy from your investment! Longer payback. [snip] But for most people who run the numbers, solar is clearly a no win situation. Well, if it was a win situation, then more of them would be installed. I guess the proof of this statement is that few of them are installed in urban areas, where most people live. [snip] JP |
"Joel Kolstad" wrote in message
... .... Although I understand the reasoning behind it, it's quite ironic how many people out there who live within an arguably quite reasonable bikable distance to their place of employment instead drive to work and then drive to a fitness club afterwards to work out. :-) Although I am all for people using their cars as much as they want so long as fuel taxes or whatever more or less make up for the impact to the environment, but unfortunately it's hard to translate that impact into monetary terms. Yeah, like how many dollars in gas tax have to go into a politician's pocket to save 1 acre of spotted owl habitat? Is that how that works? Thanks, Rich |
"Joel Kolstad" wrote in message
... .... Although I understand the reasoning behind it, it's quite ironic how many people out there who live within an arguably quite reasonable bikable distance to their place of employment instead drive to work and then drive to a fitness club afterwards to work out. :-) Although I am all for people using their cars as much as they want so long as fuel taxes or whatever more or less make up for the impact to the environment, but unfortunately it's hard to translate that impact into monetary terms. Yeah, like how many dollars in gas tax have to go into a politician's pocket to save 1 acre of spotted owl habitat? Is that how that works? Thanks, Rich |
Please then state your facts .. did your landlord share this with you ?
what was the cost ? , what amount of hot water does or did the system produce ? how many years has it produced hot water ? and how about some simple numbers to back-up your claim it didn't have an economical payback ... http://www3.sympatico.ca/hipett/ho****er.htm 3-4 year payback http://www.solagen.com/water-heating.htm 1-3 year payback http://www.environment.act.gov.au/Fi...temsreport.pdf 4-6 years (in AU dollars) http://www.ecs-solar.com/solarho****er_faq.htm 3-4 year based on 600-700 year savings http://www.solardev.com/hot-water-types.php 4-7 years http://www.uneptie.org/energy/act/re...cs/thermal.PDF 4 - 14 years (I guess you can pay to much for anything) http://www.sixriverssolar.com/solar_water_heating.htm 4 -8 years Every hear of Google ? most of the above links are a bit outdated , and if today's electric/Natural gas prices were used , payback for a self installed system would be in the 2-3 year range. (based on a 1600.00 kit , that I having bought and installed , replacing 600.00 year in electricity.) I bought and installed and used this system for 2.5 years ... what are your numbers NOSPAM ? "Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote in message ... SNIP My apt. owner put solar water heater panels on the roof more than ten years ago, and I don't think they've been cost effective. SNIP AGAIN Facts are facts. I simply stated a fact. First off, that the solar water heater that I have experience with, and that's a *fact*. And secondly, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. Fact. |
Please then state your facts .. did your landlord share this with you ?
what was the cost ? , what amount of hot water does or did the system produce ? how many years has it produced hot water ? and how about some simple numbers to back-up your claim it didn't have an economical payback ... http://www3.sympatico.ca/hipett/ho****er.htm 3-4 year payback http://www.solagen.com/water-heating.htm 1-3 year payback http://www.environment.act.gov.au/Fi...temsreport.pdf 4-6 years (in AU dollars) http://www.ecs-solar.com/solarho****er_faq.htm 3-4 year based on 600-700 year savings http://www.solardev.com/hot-water-types.php 4-7 years http://www.uneptie.org/energy/act/re...cs/thermal.PDF 4 - 14 years (I guess you can pay to much for anything) http://www.sixriverssolar.com/solar_water_heating.htm 4 -8 years Every hear of Google ? most of the above links are a bit outdated , and if today's electric/Natural gas prices were used , payback for a self installed system would be in the 2-3 year range. (based on a 1600.00 kit , that I having bought and installed , replacing 600.00 year in electricity.) I bought and installed and used this system for 2.5 years ... what are your numbers NOSPAM ? "Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote in message ... SNIP My apt. owner put solar water heater panels on the roof more than ten years ago, and I don't think they've been cost effective. SNIP AGAIN Facts are facts. I simply stated a fact. First off, that the solar water heater that I have experience with, and that's a *fact*. And secondly, your followup is not easily readable, misuse of commas, etc. Needs work. Fact. |
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote:
"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message The price penalty is only on items that try to replace or substitute for meat (and often failing miserably). If you simply purchase items such as beans, rice, grains, nuts and so forth, as they exist in nature (or at least, supermarket shelves) then their prices become very low. Last I checked, nuts were more expensive than some meats. And most people haven't got a clue as to how to eat a meat-free diet and get proper nutrition. That's the problem. Well, then don't buy more expensive products and educate yourself about proper nutrition. It's not like this is especially complex or the information particularly difficult to find. Anthony |
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote:
"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message The price penalty is only on items that try to replace or substitute for meat (and often failing miserably). If you simply purchase items such as beans, rice, grains, nuts and so forth, as they exist in nature (or at least, supermarket shelves) then their prices become very low. Last I checked, nuts were more expensive than some meats. And most people haven't got a clue as to how to eat a meat-free diet and get proper nutrition. That's the problem. Well, then don't buy more expensive products and educate yourself about proper nutrition. It's not like this is especially complex or the information particularly difficult to find. Anthony |
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP ============================== As I reported in a previous message its rated capacity is only 150 Watts. 6 Blades , 900 mm diameter, max rpm approx 250 , 3 phase generator ( DC through one and a half standard 25 Amperes bridge rectifiers) The thing sits on a street lamp post with an extension (approx 8 metres above ground. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP ============================== As I reported in a previous message its rated capacity is only 150 Watts. 6 Blades , 900 mm diameter, max rpm approx 250 , 3 phase generator ( DC through one and a half standard 25 Amperes bridge rectifiers) The thing sits on a street lamp post with an extension (approx 8 metres above ground. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. ...Jim Thompson It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more cost effective than burning coal. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. ...Jim Thompson It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more cost effective than burning coal. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in : On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. Only seen pictures of it. These look the same as the ones we have here. There are plans to build a whole bunch out in the sea here, but I dunno how far that is from realization. JP |
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in : On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups" wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win: Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home made shunt controller . System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy (and usually sunless) periods Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here, one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones... It is on the coast, and it is always windy here... How big is that thing? JP Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ? HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. Only seen pictures of it. These look the same as the ones we have here. There are plans to build a whole bunch out in the sea here, but I dunno how far that is from realization. JP |
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name -
\"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in : "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-. Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty well to avoid being exposed. I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole the land from the Indiens (spelling?). Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest. Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California? Then they started paying taxes.... Was not California short of cash? JP |
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name -
\"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in : "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-. Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty well to avoid being exposed. I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole the land from the Indiens (spelling?). Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest. Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California? Then they started paying taxes.... Was not California short of cash? JP |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in : "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-. Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty well to avoid being exposed. I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole the land from the Indiens (spelling?). Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest. Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California? Then they started paying taxes.... Was not California short of cash? JP FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote: On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in : "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-. Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty well to avoid being exposed. I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole the land from the Indiens (spelling?). Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest. Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California? Then they started paying taxes.... Was not California short of cash? JP FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) My guess would of been http://www.theonion.com/ Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote: FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) My guess would of been http://www.theonion.com/ Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:13:19 GMT, maxfoo
wrote: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) My guess would of been http://www.theonion.com/ LOL! Probably so! ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:13:19 GMT, maxfoo
wrote: On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) My guess would of been http://www.theonion.com/ LOL! Probably so! ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
In article ,
says... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. That's silly economics. I do not have to take into account the cost of electricity in 25 years. I can wait. Solar cells are becoming cheaper too. When the cost of the solar cell is less than the cost of power from the grid I can switch, saving all of the negative amortization inbetween, and have a *new* system in 25 years, just as you're in need of replacing yours. ;-) My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay- back in my lifetime. -- Keith |
In article ,
says... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. That's silly economics. I do not have to take into account the cost of electricity in 25 years. I can wait. Solar cells are becoming cheaper too. When the cost of the solar cell is less than the cost of power from the grid I can switch, saving all of the negative amortization inbetween, and have a *new* system in 25 years, just as you're in need of replacing yours. ;-) My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay- back in my lifetime. -- Keith |
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in : On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in : "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message ... On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened wrote in : A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13 cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or $2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback, if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system. Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage. You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there still is a grid during and after WW3 that is. JP I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland. History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might consider going back to their point of origination. Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-. Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty well to avoid being exposed. I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole the land from the Indiens (spelling?). Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest. Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California? Then they started paying taxes.... Was not California short of cash? JP FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical information... comic books ;-) Wrong again, as first hand experience working in California I KNOW how it is. I ALSO know what a jail full of illegal Mexicans looks like from the inside. So you better stop joking, I probably know US better then you. And no I am not a Mexican. That was the south border, I can also tell you about the north border. Now go and dream on, dream dream dream the US dream my friend. JP |
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