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Morse Key Contacts?
For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts,
for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 -0000, "gareth"
wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. Never built a morse key but in the telecomms industry, Palladium was the way to go. |
Morse Key Contacts?
"gareth" wrote:
For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. Or put off for 18 years. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. By electronic organ you mean battery powered dildo, I presume? -- STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur |
Morse Key Contacts?
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message ... "gareth" wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. Or put off for 18 years. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. By electronic organ you mean battery powered dildo, I presume? STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur tee hee ...very good ... |
Morse Key Contacts?
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message ... "gareth" wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. Or put off for 18 years. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. By electronic organ you mean battery powered dildo, I presume? STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur tee hee ...very good ... I'm here all week, folks! Tickets are going fast! -- STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 21/12/2015 23:33, gareth wrote:
For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? What about the contacts from an old relay? -- Extend ****s law - make 'em wear a cheat sheet 24/7 |
Morse Key Contacts?
En el artículo , Stephen Thomas Cole
escribió: By electronic organ you mean battery powered dildo, I presume? He could take it cruising in his cute little turquoise jeep-ette. -- (\_/) (='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke! (")_(") |
Morse Key Contacts?
"Fred Roberts" wrote in message
... On 21/12/2015 23:33, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? What about the contacts from an old relay? It's always the same with hoarding in the junk box; I've these 12V Varley plug in relays that would do the job excellently, but it seems a pity to wreck a relay, even though I've about 20 of them and all unused for 20 years !!!!!!! Yes, that's obviously the answer, and I must overcome that hoarding instinct!! |
Morse Key Contacts?
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message ... "Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote: "Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message ... "gareth" wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. Or put off for 18 years. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. By electronic organ you mean battery powered dildo, I presume? STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur tee hee ...very good ... I'm here all week, folks! Tickets are going fast! STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur here is a couple for you to buy .... https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-conc...nds/1147344052 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...-40-years.html |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:47:19 -0000 (UTC), Brian Reay
wrote: Rambo wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 -0000, "gareth" wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. Never built a morse key but in the telecomms industry, Palladium was the way to go. Found, I believe, on the surface of disk drive disks. The disks are generally aluminium (some are plastic, which surprised me) and they have a thin coat of Palladium. (It is amazing what you stumble across on YouTube, the above comes from a video about scrapping disk drives which appeared as a suggestion when looking for something- not about scrapping disk drives but it caught my eye.) http://tinyurl.com/jfvryeq Interesting comparison of contact materials in relays. As you can see Gold and copper are not the best options. |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote:
For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... |
Morse Key Contacts?
Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... These always crack me up. You're doing great work here. -- STC / M0TEY / http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D |
Morse Key Contacts?
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM:
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
rickman wrote on 11/16/2017 12:07 PM:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? I knew I was forgetting something. An optical switch is easy enough to make and can be very precise as well. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet.Â* Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? |
Morse Key Contacts?
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM:
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet.Â* Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. |
Morse Key Contacts?
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM:
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting.Â* The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM:
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting.Â* The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break.Â* It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension.Â* It leads to irregular break timing.Â* This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches.Â* What is the timing precision requirement for CW?Â* Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM:
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting.Â* The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break.Â* It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension.Â* It leads to irregular break timing.Â* This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches.Â* What is the timing precision requirement for CW?Â* Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work.Â* The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out.Â* Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break.Â* And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers?Â* Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard".Â* So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms.Â* So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means.Â* The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM:
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:57:18 -0500, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest ******s. |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break.Â* It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension.Â* It leads to irregular break timing.Â* This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches.Â* What is the timing precision requirement for CW?Â* Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work.Â* The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out.Â* Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break.Â* And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers?Â* Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard".Â* So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms.Â* So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means.Â* The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous.Â* However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field.Â* This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog.Â* The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical?Â* If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously.Â* They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch.Â* The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously".Â* I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches.Â* The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch.Â* It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector.Â* Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital.Â* The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time.Â* In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer.Â* If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches.Â* Try reading about switches a bit.Â* You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection.Â* Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:57:18 -0500, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest ******s. Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM:
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than diverting the discussion. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. "There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output change. The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and settles down. That's the bounce time. Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done. So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot. Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 18/11/2017 04:01, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest ******s. Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth. You're the stooopid one for attributing to me the remarks made by one of my stalking Nonces. |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 10:27:30 +0000, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
On 18/11/2017 04:01, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest ******s. Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth. You're the stooopid one for attributing to me the remarks made by one of my stalking Nonces. Schtoopid Schtuckle tells someone called Gareth their Stoopidity is showing and you automatically assume he's talking to you? Says it all, really. Made for each other, you two. |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/18/2017 5:27 AM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
On 18/11/2017 04:01, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest ******s. Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth. You're the stooopid one for attributing to me the remarks made by one of my stalking Nonces. Sorry, Gareth. You can't hide your stoopidity. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM: On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect switches around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting.Â* The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break.Â* It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension.Â* It leads to irregular break timing.Â* This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches.Â* What is the timing precision requirement for CW?Â* Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work.Â* The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out.Â* Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break.Â* And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers?Â* Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard".Â* So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms.Â* So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means.Â* The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous.Â* However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field.Â* This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog.Â* The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical?Â* If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is.Â* That is the context in which they were brought up.Â* But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the functioning of switches.Â* How about you address the issues rather than diverting the discussion. I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously.Â* They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch.Â* The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously".Â* I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches.Â* The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch.Â* It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle.Â* That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. "There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together.Â* All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output change. The real difference is in the bounce time.Â* A mercury wetted reed switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain.Â* A mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and settles down.Â* That's the bounce time. I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact. Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector.Â* Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital.Â* The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. Lol.Â* It is easy enough to exclude ambient light. And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not restricting any motion. Right. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time.Â* In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer.Â* If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain and must be eliminated.Â* Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done.Â* So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce?Â* If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT! Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches.Â* Try reading about switches a bit.Â* You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection.Â* Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on.Â* And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. You actually haven't analyzed anything.Â* You just keep repeating the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate. I have, but you call it "off-topic". So if your ideas are so great, why aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong. Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry, AI0K ================== |
Morse Key Contacts?
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM:
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM: On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than diverting the discussion. I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious. Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off topic. I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you lack of understanding. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. "There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output change. The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and settles down. That's the bounce time. I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact. And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than discuss the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would like to understand better? Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light. And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not restricting any motion. Right. The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I guess you've never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This wouldn't require anything nearly as complex as that, but you do need to understand the principle before you can see how it might be done. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done. So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT! Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is required and typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined delays. Instead of yelling what the issue isn't, how about you explain what it *is*? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate. I have, but you call it "off-topic". You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you said was off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic switch is analog (which actually makes no sense) because the field at the switch varies in a continuous manner until the threshold is reached. You erroneously stated the mechanical switch (which a reed is also) is "digital" because it is either open or closed, totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses mechanical contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range of motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for the reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed. So if your ideas are so great, why aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong. Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll patent the idea if no one is doing it. Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune. A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
Morse Key Contacts?
rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM: On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM: On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than diverting the discussion. I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious. Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off topic. I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you lack of understanding. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. "There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output change. The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and settles down. That's the bounce time. I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact. And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than discuss the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would like to understand better? Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light. And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not restricting any motion. Right. The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I guess you've never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This wouldn't require anything nearly as complex as that, but you do need to understand the principle before you can see how it might be done. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done. So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT! Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is required and typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined delays. Instead of yelling what the issue isn't, how about you explain what it *is*? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate. I have, but you call it "off-topic". You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you said was off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic switch is analog (which actually makes no sense) because the field at the switch varies in a continuous manner until the threshold is reached. You erroneously stated the mechanical switch (which a reed is also) is "digital" because it is either open or closed, totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses mechanical contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range of motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for the reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed. So if your ideas are so great, why aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong. Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll patent the idea if no one is doing it. Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune. A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams? Gents, can you please **** off. -- STC / M0TEY / http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 18 Nov 2017 18:00:54 GMT
Stephen Thomas Cole wrote: rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM: On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM: On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM: On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM: On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM: On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM: On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote: Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM: On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote: Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM: On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote: For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use for the contacts, for I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact on my ersatz Vibroplex to be very noisy and scratchy? I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has been a habit of never put off till tomorrow what you can put off till the day after. I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's own electronic organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying matreial for the keyboards. If a question's worth asking, Gareth... I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from old relays. I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was in my teens, back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird mounting arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts. Bob W, WA9D Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect switches around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet. Are the magnetic switches too sloppy? Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays? I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but aren't they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up? In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about mercury wetting. Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating connection because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it is a liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted". Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the contacts are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in regular switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW. Additionally a magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are good for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key. I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision requirement for CW? Does optical satisfy it? Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a reed switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation. That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to last for years. So no numbers? Let's try to make some. According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using a manual key. Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other switches I found. No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate via a magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally, switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release. The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed. Optical is also analog and can have similar problems. And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with reed switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the high-end paddles/keys? Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your understanding of electronics. It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are wrong. There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than diverting the discussion. I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious. Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off topic. I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you lack of understanding. Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact "continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character to the next. Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles. "There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output change. The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and settles down. That's the bounce time. I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact. And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than discuss the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would like to understand better? Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure. The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by ambient light, making the switch even less reliable. Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light. And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not restricting any motion. Right. The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I guess you've never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This wouldn't require anything nearly as complex as that, but you do need to understand the principle before you can see how it might be done. I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit? Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem. Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done. So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT! Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is required and typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined delays. Instead of yelling what the issue isn't, how about you explain what it *is*? Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool to find some info on this and read it. Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical switching is not used in keys and paddles. You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate. I have, but you call it "off-topic". You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you said was off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic switch is analog (which actually makes no sense) because the field at the switch varies in a continuous manner until the threshold is reached. You erroneously stated the mechanical switch (which a reed is also) is "digital" because it is either open or closed, totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses mechanical contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range of motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for the reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed. So if your ideas are so great, why aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong. Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll patent the idea if no one is doing it. Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune. A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams? Gents, can you please **** off. Vote Steve! |
Morse Key Contacts?
Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune. A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams? yes it is the class Bs and the hammy mens that have all the money..... |
Morse Key Contacts?
Gents, can you please **** off. after you Cicel .... |
Morse Key Contacts?
On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 12:44:38 -0500, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM: On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote: So if your ideas are so great, why aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong. Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll patent the idea if no one is doing it. This guy here sells optical keys. http://www.morseexpress.com/ghd/ Brian GM4DIJ |
Morse Key Contacts?
On 18/11/2017 18:17, Jim Jam ... wrote:
Gents, can you please **** off. after you Cicel .... Sounds like the PP is suffering from mental deterioration, according to Reay Diagnostics. I expect he'll be along shortly to tut-tut - unless the PP is one of the unusual suspects, in which case he'll sit on his hands. -- Spike "Once you see the RSGB logo you know that you are on the right track" - but to what? Publish RSGBTech's definitions of 'genuine', 'interest', 'known', 'trouble', and 'maker', as well as the contents of the vetting policy and its supporting database. |
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