On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:38:44 -0800, "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion."

No, it's not.

Audience: "Oh yes it is!"

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:38:44 -0800, "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
. ..

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:


Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion."

No, it's not.


Audience: "Oh yes it is!"


Audience: Oh no its not, you're either playing silly buggers or
demonstrating a deep lack of understanding.

Cheers
Terry

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:44:26 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion." Care to
participate? ;-)

Well, yeah, except that it's so simple to "explain away" by just
saying that you're not paying for the electrons themselves that
are just passing through, but the energy required to get them
to do that passage.

They've got the motor, you've got the wagon. The electrons
are just a medium, conceptually indistinguishable from the
way a V-belt transfers energy.

I've said this in other FUs kinda ad nauseam, tonight. :-)

Thanks,
Rich

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:04:59 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:

Well, yeah, except that it's so simple to "explain away" by just
saying that you're not paying for the electrons themselves that
are just passing through, but the energy required to get them
to do that passage.

Big deal. All they've got to do is pull some carbon rods out of a pile
of radio-active crap and the job's done. How hard can that be?
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:38:36 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:04:59 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:

Well, yeah, except that it's so simple to "explain away" by just
saying that you're not paying for the electrons themselves that
are just passing through, but the energy required to get them
to do that passage.

Big deal. All they've got to do is pull some carbon rods out of a pile
of radio-active crap and the job's done. How hard can that be?

---
I think that's kinda what they thought at Chernobyl...

--
John Fields

In article , Paul Burridge
writes:

I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Simple.

Electrons come into your house (supplied by the utility) and then they go back
out.

You don't buy them - you just pay rent for the time you have them.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
N2EY wrote:

I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Simple.

Electrons come into your house (supplied by the utility) and then they go back
out.

You don't buy them - you just pay rent for the time you have them.

Well, you have 'em in your house whether they're being pumped around,
or not.

It's more like a turnpike - you pay for the amount of distance driven,
times the number of vehicles that you drive. Doesn't matter whether
you're driving north, south, or north-and-then-south again. You
drive, you burn gas, you pay the toll.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On 13 Nov 2004 00:15:19 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Paul Burridge
writes:

I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Simple.

Electrons come into your house (supplied by the utility) and then they go back
out.

You don't buy them - you just pay rent for the time you have them.

Well then I'm *definitely* being swindled; my bills make no mention of
electrons at all.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

Paul Burridge wrote in message . ..
The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.

Two things flow along wires: charge and energy. The energy flows fast,
while the charges flow slowly. The charges flow in a complete circle
(you don't use any up,) while the energy is absorbed by your appliances.

OK, here's the big question: which one is the electricity?

If an electric current is a flow of electricity, then "electricity" is
not energy, and the utility companies neither produce nor sell any
electricity.

It all depends on how we define the word "electricity." And unfortunately
the reference books don't agree with each other. Some books follow
the scientists of old, and define electricity as charge (so a quantity of
electricity is measured in coulombs, and a flow of electricity is measured
in amperes.) Other reference books ignore that definition, and instead
they insist that electricity is energy... so a flow of electricity is
measured in watts, not amps.


The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

The path for electric current is CIRCULAR. For every bit of charge that
the electric companies force into your appliances, an equal amount of
charge goes back out through the other wire. The current is also
oscillating (the charges don't actually flow, instead they vibrate
back and forth over extremely tiny distances.)

On the other hand, the path for electrical energy is one way. The
electric companies send electromagnetic energy over enormous distances.
It's this energy which your appliances consume. Unfortunately for
our definition of "electricity," this energy is composed of electric and
magnetic fields, and it travels in the space surrounding the wires.
Do we really want to state that electricity is made of EM fields?
Do we really want to say that no electricity travels inside of wires,
but instead it travels in the space outside? If we say that electricity
is a form of energy, that's the same as saying that electricity is
just some travelling waves of electromagnetic field.

Possible solution: never use the word electricity at all. If you
want to say that electrical energy flows along a circuit, then say
exactly that. If you want to talk about flows of charge, then
speak of charge and not "electricity." As long as we never mention
the word "electricity," then amperes and watts are no longer mistaken
for each other, and we can get on with explaining the joules and
coulombs in ways that make sense.

"William J. Beaty" wrote in message
om...
Paul Burridge wrote in message
. ..

On the other hand, the path for electrical energy is one way. The
electric companies send electromagnetic energy over enormous distances.
It's this energy which your appliances consume. Unfortunately for
our definition of "electricity," this energy is composed of electric and
magnetic fields, and it travels in the space surrounding the wires.
Do we really want to state that electricity is made of EM fields?
Do we really want to say that no electricity travels inside of wires,
but instead it travels in the space outside? If we say that electricity
is a form of energy, that's the same as saying that electricity is
just some travelling waves of electromagnetic field.

Yes please, guided energy!. It seems fathomable and sits easily amongst
waveguides, aerials, lightbulbs and triphasic conduit.
Electrons have a bit of weight. If you spin a metal disc at the power
station fast enough, then all the electrons in it should centrifuge out and
crowd towards the outer edge leaving no electrons in the middle. The
electrons aren't happy being herded onto the outer rim and really just want
to hang out and chew the cud. The potential to do work has thus been stored,
just like in a flywheel.
Paul switches on his TV and gives them a route back to the disc centre. The
stored disc energy is immediately translated in his TV to heat, light and
sound as the electrons all work through to become nonentities again.
The power station people don't like this as all their patiently herded
electrons have escaped, the disc has slowed a tad and they have to raise
more steam to maintain speed and herd more electrons. Hence will charge
Paul handsomely for his profligacy.
Dunno what happens in a spinning capacitor with diode connected plates
though :-)
regards
john